Nocturne op 48 no 1

[beebert]

I have started working on this wonderful piece and I very much wonder, is it really as technically hard as people say it is? I haven't had a look at the doppio movimento section yet tough, maybe that's the part that makes this piece technically demanding? Or is it the octaves?

[pytheamateur]

I have started working on this wonderful piece and I very much wonder, is it really as technically hard as people say it is? I haven't had a look at the doppio movimento section yet tough, maybe that's the part that makes this piece technically demanding? Or is it the octaves?

I'd love to hear what makes this work so difficult.  It's supposed to be more difficult than Liszt's Liebestraume.  Does the difficulty lie in the musical interpretation?

[j_menz]

I haven't had a look at the doppio movimento section yet tough, maybe that's the part that makes this piece technically demanding? Or is it the octaves?

The doppio movimento section is way harder than the rest. Once you try it you'll see why it has it's reputation.

As I recall, the octaves aren't to bad technically, but getting the musicality to shine through them is pretty challenging.

[quantum]

I would suggest looking at the doppio movimento section first.  You may need to spend some time on it before it fits into the hands.  The octave middle section isn't as intimidating as it looks. 

[beebert]

I have looked at the doppio movimento the whole day long, both today and yesterday.. I must say it's quite really really really hard... The thing is, it's not that much of a problem for me to play the right hand alone, nor the left hand alone.. But hands together I find extremely difficult. Those jumps from octaves and then right up to changing chords in the left hand along with the big chords that changes in the right hand are extremely difficult to put together.. And also the 3 against 4.. Any tips on how to manage hands together?

[j_menz]

If you can do the hands separate OK then it's probably not the leaps and chords so much as the 3/4 polyrhythm.  The leaps and chords will come with more practice hands separate.  For the polyrhythm, I'd suggest a simpler piece (without the other difficulties) to work on until you can do the 3/4 without having to think about it too much.

[beebert]

Thank you for the suggestion, but can't I just as well practice the polyhrythms in this piece?

[j_menz]

You can, but the other complexities make getting the rhythms right harder than if you practice on a piece that is, in other respects, simpler. If you use a simpler piece, you can get the 3/4 polyrhythm ingrained and then it will carry accross  nicely.  You should continue practicing hands seperate, so the other bits are fully sorted out and come naturally. Once you feel you have both that and the polyrhythm down pat, you'll be pleasantly surprised how well they fit together hands together.

[beebert]

Okay! Thanks for your tips, I will try to follow the suggestions!

[megadodd]

There was a really easy way for me to overcome polyrythms.
Basically, it's like riding a bike, once you got it. You won't ever forget it.
So it's worth taking your time on a really simple exercise untill you feel "this is how it is". And you will feel it when it flows naturally.
Just do the polyrythms in the scale of the key which the piece is in.
Playing the C major scale with 5 fingers from C to G, on the way up playing a broken C chord and on the way down from G to C playing a broken G7 chord without the tonic, or something like that.
I don't know which key the Nocturne is in though.

[beebert]

Thank you really much! The Nocturne is in c minor!

[joeplaysthepiano]

This piece is very special to me.  I learned it 6 years ago, probably before I was ready.  I distinctly remember having real trouble with this piece when I first learned it.  It took me a while to get the octave section at the right pace.  Now this section seems really easy to me.  I just didn't have a greatly developed octave technique at the time.  What still even now gives me trouble is the doppio movimento section.  I am never satisfied with how I play it.  I feel like I can always make the melody stand out more, but it's just difficult to do effectively.  I think there's a huge difference between being able to play the notes and being able to play the way the piece should be played.  Anyways, good luck, this piece is unbelievable.

[quantum]

For practicing the 4 against 3 polyrhythm you can simplify the passage by playing only melody in RH plus single note broken chords in the LH.  This way you get to feel the outline of the music while working out the polyrhythms. 

[beebert]

That is actually not a bad idea! Many thanks quantum!

[beebert]

Thank you all for your tips and help! I have now managed to get down the 3v4-polytyrhm, and it's gonna help me alot with the rest of the piece. Although, I do have one thing I wonder about.. I have problems with the end of the piece, I don't know which bar/bars, because my edition dosen't tell that, but it is at line number 28 at least. Do you know which I am talking about and if so, have you got any tips on how to solve it?

Thanks!

[cmg]

I have problems with the end of the piece, I don't know which bar/bars, because my edition dosen't tell that, but it is at line number 28 at least. Do you know which I am talking about and if so, have you got any tips on how to solve it?

Thanks!

Not sure what troubles you are having.  You'll have to count the measures and give us numbers.  I assume you are referring to the climax just before the coda?  That would be bar 69 where there is the extended 4 against 3 passage, including RH triplet figures subdivided within the overall triplet figures of the bar???  Hard to know, if you don't give exact measures.

If this is the area you're having trouble with, well, welcome to the club.  Everything that's hard about Chopin is here:  voicing of thick chords in a thick texture at a fairly brisk pulse with hand-breaking and rapid position changes. 

This is why this piece is so notorious!  The 4 against 3 falls into place after about 1 million hours of labor on this piece.  That's the EASY part.  The hard part is voicing it all.  Brutal.

That earlier octave passage is nothing compared to what follows. 

[beebert]

You got the part of the piece right I counted and it is bar 68-69 I am talking about Do you have any tips on how to manage it? The rest I can do technically, and I don't have that much trouble to bring out the melody anymore(pieces like Schubert op 90 no 3 may have helped me with that), but the climax as you call it is insanely difficult. Have you got any tips?

[cmg]

You got the part of the piece right I counted and it is bar 68-69 I am talking about Do you have any tips on how to manage it? The rest I can do technically, and I don't have that much trouble to bring out the melody anymore(pieces like Schubert op 90 no 3 may have helped me with that), but the climax as you call it is insanely difficult. Have you got any tips?

In practicing it, really emphasize the 3 vs 4 nature of these two bars.  Chopin really pulls out the stops here to create enormous tension between the competing meters.  For starters, make sure your fingering of the left hand chords in the triplet figures is very pianistic and fits your hands, allowing for smooth position shifts.  Nail that first.  Next, do the same for the quadruplets of the right hand.  Really voice the hell out them, too.  I mean, like, really sing out, Louise!   Keep them very, very even.  With both hands together now, be very conscious of how the LH triplets only fit the quads of the RH on the first attack of each beat in the bar.  Thereafter, the triplets' 2nd and 3rd pulses, fall between the quads above.  Do it so slowly your brain goes into near hiberation until you feel the rhythmic displacement perfectly.  It will feel natural soon enough. 

Finally, give this great tune plenty of space to sing.  Think of opera here. 

Where there are larger intervalic leaps in the RH tune, give more time/space between the larger leaps.  You'll notice singers and string players do this.  It sounds like this is not very "musical" advice.  Sounds calculated.  But, in fact, it works for dramatic purposes.  Plus, you can play the tune without crashing and burning.  Make expressiveness serve you here.  Take time to get the leaps and the dramatic nature of this piece really pops out. 

Have fun.  I love this piece so much.  Programmed on my first important recital, with the B-flat minor Scherzo, when I was 13.   

[beebert]

Thank you so much for your help! I will take you suggestions with me when practicing! I appreciate it alot!