helicopter parents

[love_that_tune]

I have just started teaching a 7 year old.  She reads music quite well and has great rhythm.  Her mom hired me because this girl and her little sister have been resisting practice and didn't want to go to their lessons or practice much.  I have hit it off with the girls very well, but... This mom works with them between lessons to push them harder and when I return the 7 year old has been drilled by mom to play more than we have worked on.  I have explained that I am not just teachings notes and that it is not helpful what she is doing.

We've only had 4 lessons and each time the mom tries to ask me in a different way, what "she should do".  How much of this must I endure? 

How do you get parents who know how to play the piano (but not well) to leave it alone?

I confess I already dread going there.  It's creepy.

[m1469]

haha ... helicopter parents.  I've got a serious hover craft parent in one of my piano classes at the school where I teach.  She comes to every single class and sits with her child, teaching over the top of me.  haha ... I've *so* given up on that situation (well, I've given up trying to change it).  But, I'm also teaching in a school where that is condoned and where I can't just say "look, let me do this!"  Semester ends in a week ... so ...

The good news is that your parent wants to help and have her child get the most out of her lessons, but it's very tricky to find the right way for all of that to work together in a perfect balance, at least I have found.  If you really want to keep the student, give Mom some very specific tasks and very specific goals which also meet your own intentions.  Of course, I am curious what is not exactly working just because she goes ahead of what you did, but I'll just take for granted and trust that you know what you're saying when you say it isn't helpful.  

[lostinidlewonder]

A parent who ensures their child practices and does more than the teacher asks for is doing a wonderful job in my opinion. I have several young students whos parents are involved deeply in their musical practice/study and I find it is much more beneficial than a parent who leaves it completely to the teacher.

I do not expect the parents to be able to teach exactly how I want their child to be taught, in fact how they teach is often much more inefficient than a teacher for many reasons (a primary reason is that young children often do not work well with their parents in teaching matters). That there is pressure for the student to practice is important, of course if the parent makes the student hate the piano because of the effort they expect from them it is bad, but this is a rare situation. Most parents who push their children hard in music also push them hard in other tasks, so the child is used to that kind of treatment. As a teacher teaching a student with these parents I ensure the parents are attending the lesson and that they understand what I am teaching as clearly as the student. I ensure I write in more detail a prescription for what I want the student to work at, I also give extra work which runs in line with where I am taking the student (in case they complete the work I set them for the week it is important that they don't tangent from the lesson plan).

I like to give parents who are so involved in their childrens musical education focused effort in sight reading. This activity is filled with a lot of drugery and if a parent and child can work through this outside of lesson time it will act as a catalyst for their future rate of progress. Too many students merely study what the teacher gives them, the pieces, the theory, but not enough practice reading skills and subjecting themselves to hundreds of examples of easier pieces. As a teacher with motivated students/parents I ensure that they have a huge amount of sight reading material so they will always have something to work on and really never will complete the work I set them but always have them working in line with our lesson plan.

I often have long discussions with parents who are highly involved in their childrens education. They often tell me about how their child learns and what they have noticed in their years of bringing them up and dealing with their education. I find this quite interesting discussions much more so than the parent who merely says that they notice their child likes or dislikes their lessons. I have had parents tell me never to say NO to their child since it depresses them too much and some who say to me be as tough as as I can! I often like to put students in "safe uncomfortable" situations so thse type of discussions often gives me insight into how to do this. I will say NO to the student who is not used to it or gets depressed from it, I will be kinder to the student who is pushed extremely hard by their parents, there is always some kind of yin-yang that needs to be balanced in these situations, a students most important lessons are not what is revealed to them in the subject but what they discover about themselves as they study.

[keypeg]

If I can chime in:  What if, for example, a teacher is carefully setting up technique and reading skills.  The parent doesn't understand this and pushes the child to "progress" as fast as possible (superficially) so that the child ends up not getting the skills the teacher is after due to rushing through the material.  I can imagine that with an involved parent, you want to be educating the parent about your methodology to some extent, and telling the parent how s/he can help and what not to do.

[lostinidlewonder]

She comes to every single class and sits with her child, teaching over the top of me.  haha ...

I have this situation sometimes as well, but the parent usually repeats what I said. Some parents have an indepth understanding as to how their child works, they know when they are lost or need a push at least. I catch onto the patterns which cause the parents to pipe up and try to say what they parents want to say before they say it. I haven't yet had to take a parent aside and tell them they are disrupting the lessons by what they are saying with very young students often I have to ask the parents not to be in the room as the student becomes too distracted around a teacher when their parents are there, I have in the past had to cancel one lesson because this situation could not be solved.

If I can chime in:  What if, for example, a teacher is carefully setting up technique and reading skills.  The parent doesn't understand this and pushes the child to "progress" as fast as possible (superficially) so that the child ends up not getting the skills the teacher is after due to rushing through the material.  I can imagine that with an involved parent, you want to be educating the parent about your methodology to some extent, and telling the parent how s/he can help and what not to do.

I think it is important to teach the parent as well in these situations. If they do not listen to the teacher then I would ask why do they want their child to learn from a teacher then, although I have never had to do this so far.

[keypeg]

I think it is important to teach the parent as well in these situations. If they do not listen to the teacher then I would ask why do they want their child to learn from a teacher then, although I have never had to do this so far.

Thank you.  Those were my thoughts.

Though as a parent, I was also able to give the kind of feedback that you described, because often we do know our children well.

[fleetfingers]

I like what lostinidlewonder had to say, and I agree that a parent who is willing to help push the child during the week is a good thing. The sight reading idea is great, because daily practice is important and many children would benefit from having someone push them along in that area daily.

I feel that a parent who gets too involved can become a problem if the child is older. They need to be responsible for following the teacher's instructions on their own, and the teacher should be the one holding them accountable each week. If there are any problems, the teacher can ask for support from the parent; but, generally hovering over older children is not healthy. Being strict with them is good, and they should be expected to practice - I just mean that it's not good to micro-manage their practicing.

Also, it's bad if a parent who plays the piano is trying to run the show. I have a parent like this. They want me to do the hard job of teaching, but they want it to be done their way: what book to use, what piece should be learned next, what order to teach the scales in, what and how their child needs to practice, etc. Not good. 

[jpahmad]

At least it's better than the other way around, where the parent doesn't do anything.

All young children, no matter how much they love music and the piano, eventually have to be told to go practice.  They need someone there to kick them in the butt sometimes.  Especially when it comes to sight reading and doing some of the more tedious aspects of music study.

Fleetfingers, I would soak that parents enthusiasm for all it's worth.  You want it, you asked for it, you got it!  Put her to work   


jp

[cjp_piano]

You just need to be honest and blunt and tell the mother that you're the teacher. If the mother wants to teach the child, then fine, they don't need you then. But since she is paying you, she needs to let you do it. You need to tell her what she should and should not do at home. You should tell her and show her how and what the student should practice. Since the mother seems to want to "push" her, you could give her things that she CAN do if she wants to "work ahead", but only what you say to do.

Be strong, be nice, but be honest!

[mcdiddy1]

I personally love "helicopter parents". Students come well practiced and have a set dicipline at home so they typically become your best students. It is much better than come to the parent to beg them to keep an eye on their practicing.

The best way to deal with these kind of parents is to make sure you are solid in your philosophy of a teacher and have a clear plan and direction to follow. If you establish yourself with authority and bring a perspective that comes with experience to the parent then they will follow you and basically become a mini-you at home. It is kind of like having an assistant at home. If the basis of your philosophy is the absolute best interest for their child and you make that clear in your teaching they will do everything you ask. It always makes me smile when one of my students will say their parent echos a phrase I said earlier or a sibling echos it to them. Imitation truly is the sincerest form of flattery. I have been blessed not to have parents who come in telling me what book to use and scales etc but if I did I would probably incorporate suggestions that fit is with my plan and give explicit reasons to why I shoot down the method they try and push.

One time I had a student who was learning to play from scratch and the parent was in the lesson so she could know what to do at home. She was interrupting the lessons to ask questions, take pictures of the child, and at the same time correcting the child which she had learned in the same lesson. It was like the child had three teachers and I could imagine how annoying it would be as a student. So i simply said " you are doing very well. I know how difficult it must feel to be under pressure by three adults telling you what to do" . I said it in a very sincere, comforting way and did not say a correcting word to the parent but the parent got the message loud and clear. I like to think to think the parent put herself in the students shoes for a minute, recognized it was a problem, and saw that as a teacher I was saying in the best interest of the student not to massage my ego. Luckily, she was never a problem again and I never had to "confront" the parent about hovering.

I think part of being an effective teacher is being able to deal with parents well and get them to work for you. You should come together and realize you both are working towards the best interest of the child.

[love_that_tune]

Today is helicopter parent lesson day.  Thanks for the opinions expressed here.  One point I didn't write here is that I was hired as their teacher because the girls were "resistant" to practicing and mom was wondering if a different teacher would be better.  Point #1, the former teacher taught them well, but in my opinion didn't go fast enough to keep their interest.  Point #2, I don't think the teacher was the problem with the practicing.  I think mom is the practicing "problem".  My approach of teaching - especially young children is to develop in them a sense of choice and participation that they enjoy and encourages their personal motivation.  And before you say anything I raised three kids this way and I know what I'm doing. 

This mom has openly expressed a couple of times that she is "jealous" and wishes she could take lessons with me too. 

It is one of my weaknesses to have good success with boundaries.  I confess to wanting to be liked.  My goal as a musician is to inspire and open the hearts and minds of others to all that music can be and do for them.  Sometimes it's to be an accomplished musician and sometimes not.

When a mom jumps in repeatedly, it makes me nuts. 

[slane]

So tell me ... am I going to be a helicopter parent?

I'm teaching my daughter bur next year, or maybe early 2014 we'll need a "proper" teacher.
I plan to go along to the prospective teacher and say "Look! This is how I see her education going.
Rather than teaching to the exam grades, I want her to explore the repertoire. As she gets more advanced, and the repertoire is more interesting. I expect her to explore further in pieces she is capable of playing.
I also expect her to have a fair amount of autonomy in the pieces she chooses, because she is already demonstrating a high degree of self criticism and organisation for her age. I don't want her to do exams unless she wants to, but I want her to have the option, so she needs to learn scales and interval recognition etc. so that if one day she thinks she would like to, she can without too much back tracking."

Would that offend you?

My role in all this would be
1. Ferry service to and from lessons.
2. Purchase of sheet music and recordings as required.
3. Nagging with respect to practice.
4. If necessary, intermediary in negotiations between my daughter and teacher.
5. Paying fees.

That's all reasonable isn't it? I imagine some teachers would be bewildered by what I'm explaining and possibly antagonised by the extra work it might involve (they'd have to be familiar with more repertoire) others would say "Thank god! A parent who doesn't want an exam a year!". I wonder if I could find a nice compliant conservatory student ...

[love_that_tune]

If you know so much, why do you need any teacher.  I wish you well with anybody but me.  I must say there is an angry tone to your post.  Why?  Your desire to control the teacher and your child is looking bit over the top to me.

So let's just say you should look for a different approach than mine, and interestingly enough I do teach all the things you want.  But, it is a lot harder if I am restricted by the parent's past experience.  I encourage composition, expression, jazz, classics, all of it.  And of course you can't teach any of it without the necessary drills.  Sheesh.

[slane]

errrmmm ... I'm not angry. Anxious perhaps to find the right teacher.
And I don't want to control the teacher once I've found one that has the right philosophy. Finding the right teacher for your child is not controlling her. She's 8, she can't find a teacher by herself.
And of course, teach drills. Teach whatever you think is required. Teach everything, that's great. I think you missed the point .. more is more when it comes to repertoire. It may be that you are not in a country with a big exam emphasis? Where parents want their kids pushed through a grade every year (and hopefully skip a few) so they have bragging rights in the supermarket? OK .. that does make me a bit angry. Composition and expression .. those things are easily lost on the exam route. There's jazz in the syllabus, but if you're just doing the 5 pieces a year thing, then it can be missed, especially if the teacher doesn't understand it.

Well there we are. I've pissed you off, so that answers my question!

[love_that_tune]

i've taught in the suburbs of Boston and now I'm in the Upper Valley Vermont.  There are plenty of teachers who teach to the exams.  I was not that kind of student, didn't have that kind of teacher and don't want to be.

For me, every student deserves a teacher who cares to get to know them, how they approach new material, what kind of emotion in music draws out their energy and like that. 

One town where I had 40 students, one parent remarked that when they had "talent shows" at school she could tell which ones I had taught.

Here's what I recommend to you.  Let the student "show" you how well the lessons are working by how well they progress.  Ask for a teacher to give an introductory lesson first.

With each new student I try improvisation along with me at the keyboard, then learning a few pieces by wrote, then we go through every key with I IV and V chords played as arpeggios. 

There is a lot of laughter = joy in my lessons whether it's a child or adult.  Very soon they learn to make their own corrections when needed.

I will tell you that more than 50% of my students are changeovers from teachers who were unimaginative, moved much too slowly, etc. 

It strikes me that you might want to take some lessons yourself.  Did you get to develop as far as you wanted to?  Just wondering.

[slane]

Ah so you think if I did lessons myself I'd be less inclined to learn vicariously through my daughter?  lol!
You might be right. Or it might make things worse.

There's a thin line between wanting your child to do well in something that's important to you, and being controlling. I think I'm still on the right side of the line. I think the problem for "helicopter" parents is accepting that their children have to make their own learning journey. Its been a difficult thing for me to learn with my daughter's school, but unless you're prepared to home school, and believe you're qualified to, then you have to put faith in the teachers. As long as they don't show signs of complete idiocy, then its a liberating feeling.

Well the discussion has been informative for me. I was one of those "change over" students, and I would rather my daughter wasn't. I have plenty of time to keep an ear out for the good teachers in the area, unless my daughter decides tomorrow she can't stand being taught by me any longer. A distinct possibility!
 I have ruled out one teacher already. I need to sound out parents of the teachers as I meet them, I think, as a way of making an initial assessment without affronting the teacher with my opinions on the subject.
One of the local teachers has a daughter in my daughter's class, who is at about the same stage in piano too. So I could sound her out in a way that makes it sound like I'm asking as one parent to another, and leave my opinions out of the discussion. Gosh! I'm so sneaky! Or is that diplomacy??
 
There's one young man in the area who is amazingly well qualified to play, but does he understand children less talented than he?

Do parents ask you for references from other parents love_that_tune?

[love_that_tune]

The majority of the students I get are referrals.  So they are my recommendations.  When I first started teaching a loooooooooong time ago, I was shocked that people just asked me if I taught and what was a good time.  Once in a while a parent would apologize for asking about my background.  So I take the first lesson to show the student and/or parent how I play and how I teach in general.  Proof is in the pudding I guess. 

I home schooled my two oldest kids for four years, and before you ask it was sooooooooo not for religious reasons.  Actually it was for intelligent reasons.  Then I sent them to a democratic school.  I have learned that observing the results on my children's spirit is my litmus test. They are all around thirty now and I like the well-rounded competent independent human beings they are today.

Have you ever watched a group of children at the end of the day leaving school?  Depressing really.  My kids were disappointed it was time to go home at 5:00.  But I digress.

Take your daughter to see really good pianists.  I still remember seeing Van Cliburn in a movie my school took me to, called a cinerama.  I can still remember the thrill in my body when he played.  Up to then I had mostly heard schlocky church pianists  (er, my mother was one).

Good luck to you.  A great pianist does not necessarily make a great teacher.  When your daughter is ready the teacher will come. 

[lostprin36]

Sounds are funny......
But there is many thing to learn.

[slane]

One of the reasons I'm so uptight about finding this ideal teacher is that we made a terrible choice with my daughter's first school. I describe it as fiercely academic without being the least bit intellectual.
So at that point I came to deplore "teaching to the grade" and seriously considered home school. Fortunately we found an excellent school 5km down the road.

But I was learning German by distance education last year, and strangely, the other girl in the class, out of all the places in the state she could have been, was just down the road from me. She lives opposite the disastrous school and spent one year there before her mother started home schooling her, having decided the classroom was not for her child. Well this girl is so clever and self organised and disciplined, not to mention musical,  I kind of regret that I'm not home schooling.

But the mother said to me "I believe that when a child needs to learn something, the world will provide it". I think that's a philosophy from John Holt. Your comment about the right teacher will come, made me think of that.

 

[tekime]

Tell her that her involvement is making you constantly revise lesson plans, and bill her for the extra time. 

On a serious note though, as a parent myself, I would be rather annoyed with a teacher that didn't accommodate my involvement. Parents are annoying and meddlesome. It's our job! Best to adapt.

[fleetfingers]

About the hovering thing. I have thought a bit about this, as I've been a teacher myself while also taking my child to violin lessons and being the parent. In my own studio, Besides the one (mentioned earlier), all of my students' parents leave things completely up to me, and I run with that freedom. I get so excited about their progress. The students and I choose music together, I have goals in place for them - customized to their own learning style and pace. And all the parents have to do is bring them to lessons, make them practice during the week, and show up at recitals to cheer them on. It's fabulous! And they progress better that way, I believe.

With the parent I have who plays the piano - they send their child to the lesson with the next piece they want to learn. A few times, I've asked the student to play such and such scales, and the response is, "My (parent) told me I didn't have to do that". And there will be notes written in the assignment book - I want so-and-so to start learning such-and-such. So, honestly, I don't ever think about that student during the week, I have zero goals for them. I just sit down for the lesson, and we go through the method books that she brings. What else can I do? Just trying to make them happy . . . but I will probably sever that arrangement in the near future.

The reason I mention this particular parent is not to complain, but to share what I've experienced as a teacher and how I feel it hinders the teaching process. How am I supposed to work when I'm being micro-managed and undermined?

Because of that, I've tried to be careful as the parent in my child's violin education. With my son's current teacher, there was only one time when I felt so strongly that he shouldn't work on a specific piece that I had to say something. But, I approached it hesitantly and with much due respect to the teacher. I made sure he knew that I trust what he does and that I was only sharing with him my concerns for consideration. He does a great job with my 11-year-old and is the best teacher I could find, so I have handed my son over to him to work his magic. If I hover, I will only be getting in the way. I can only do that if I trust the teacher, though. The only reason I would feel the need to hover is if I didn't trust the teacher. Hmmm, that is probably why the parent of my student does it to me - they do not trust me! Well, they should. At least give me a chance. Or find someone else they do trust. 

[fleetfingers]

She was interrupting the lessons to . . . take pictures of the child

LOL    I have a parent who does this. She will even dress up the kids especially nice on those days. The kids seem so used to it that it doesn't really interrupt the lessons!

[love_that_tune]

I'm baaaaaaaaack.  I am really struggling with this parent.  Five year old had not been given a single piece with two hands yet.  I ever so carefully showed her how to play a left hand note with the right hand and told her to place the rest with the right hand.  Next week mom had "taught" her the whole piece both hands.  The tension in this little girls body made me nuts.  When she finished playing she looked for her mom.  Mother has said she is resistant to practicing. Well YAH.  Kicking myself for even taking a five year old.  She is not the problem.  But mothers of five years old are... not fun.  So this week mom wanted to talk to me for a half hour on the phone.  Well, what is okay and not okay for her to do?  AAAAAAAAAAGH.  She's driving me nuts.  Her seven year old is learning to be a perfectionist to please mom or else. 

Somebody fix me a drink.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I had a recital coming up and my dad was telling me what I should practice.  I was getting soo mad!  Because he really liked this Chopin nocturne and a special crowd was gonna be there so he wanted to look good.  He eveg suggested that I played blindfolded!  So he was monitoring my practice and I was getting pretty pissed off...

But what about submarine parents?  My dad never cared about my piano unless it made him look good in front of his friends.  My aunt used to send me money for piano lessons but he kept it for himself.  What a loser...  He hasn't even met any of my teachers.

Lol 666 views

[keypeg]

Have you talked to the mother?
A second thought:

This mom has openly expressed a couple of times that she is "jealous" and wishes she could take lessons with me too. 

What if you suggested that she did?

[love_that_tune]

Actually she did have one lesson with me.  In my opinion in her 12 years of piano lessons she just learned a bunch of notes.  I'm not sure where to draw the line here.  Stay tuned.  I will not be used as a tool to manipulate her children day in and day out.  i will give her the next three months which she has paid for and now more if she doesn't learn to chill.  In my opinion the best thing that could happen for these girls is for mom to get a job.  Maybe then they won't have to be perfect every day.

[mnmleung]

how is it going?  It's been three months ... : )

[love_that_tune]

Funny you should ask.  A couple of weeks into hands off by mom, the girls were soaring through their music, making leaps and bounds.  Then two weeks ago, I got a call from the mom day before lessons.  She was "very sorry", said this many times, but they had been on a waiting list for quite some time with a teacher who now had an opening in the summer.  She kept saying she felt "really bad", and I said, "I wish you well.".  She's going to keep pounding these kids until they will probably refuse to play the piano altogether.  The majority of my students are adults now.  I confess I'm weary of the families who get their kids lessons in about 6-8 things a week and are always "shopping" for something more.  If I had this to do over, I would have stopped after a couple of weeks with this mom.  I swear during each lesson she would be organizing and re-organizing a pantry closet and actually may be OCD.  The kids were awesome.  And so it goes...

[mimibird]

My grand-daughter is 4. I suppose I could be accused of being a helicopter because I need to know what is being taught during the lesson so that the theory homework can be done in a way that is appropriate to the lesson content.  I too play the piano but opted not to teach her because I knew that it would be a gargantuan mistake.  This does not mean however that at practice time that I don't sit with her while she practices to be sure that she is counting out her quarter notes, her half notes and her rests so that she has her timing down for her next lesson.  I go through her homework with her in her theory book because her penmanship is too large for the small spaces provided in the book.  I sit in the hall during the lessons but I hear the questions of "who helped you write this?" and the answer "my Mimi".  This isn't a helicopter, this is a grandmother. My daughter has a Master's in Education and tells me that one of the things that you have to deal with is parent personalities.  The fact that so many of you feel free to criticize parents for the involvement in their children's lives and work is a little off-putting. 

[love_that_tune]

it is interesting that you think teaching your granddaughter would be a gargantuan mistake and then you teach her anyway in addition to her teacher.  The fundamental reason I prefer hands off parents is that a child who needs "help" is getting the message that she cannot do it herself.  I also treasure my own memories as a child at the piano with no one seemingly anywhere around me (despite the fact that I have four brothers and a mom who played piano).  I fell in love with the piano on my own.  My goodness what's the hurry with a 4 year old?  The most important thing is that music comes into her youthful paradigm as an expression of who SHE is, in my opinion.  Are you serious, talking about penmanship with a four year old?  I too am a grandmother.  Whatever I am working on or listening to, my almost three year old grandson quite naturally mimics vocal warmups and asks to turn on the radio station I listen to.  I do not mean to be critical, but rather I wish to have all children know the joy of music and make that on their own terms.  I have time and again seen people quit lessons because they didn't relate well to the presentation of learning to play the piano.  Many parents and grandparents who hear their children's lessons with me say they wish they had had me for a teacher.  Please do consider the kind of pressure you putting on a little baby.