VIDEO: The Revolutionary, again… improved (?) version

[costicina]

 :(Here is my second take of this Etude. It’s far from satisfaying  , but – I hope –   slightly better than the previous one.

Needless to say,  I owe to your generous help and your precious advices whatever improvement, if any, happened to occur.
Any feedback will be most appreciated (I’m getting quite  disheartened      )
Thank you in advance

Margherita

[m1469]

_@/

[costicina]

Thank you so much, m1469! 

As always, your post is full of suggestions and deep insights, giving a lot of material  to reflect upon... I'll try to do it, because I feel, or better I know that  you are right. You experience as a singer is very significant, because I guess that it involves a kind  "holistic"  self-consciousness and self control, much  more than  any other musical activity.

I'm slowly gaining this kind of awareness, at least it's a goal I'm trying to reach... probably unsuccesful     

Thank you again
Margherita

P.S. You are an excellent singer; it's a joy to listen to you

[ajspiano]

Hi margherita!

Enjoying watching your progress. I notice a few things to do with movements that I could impart, and some discussion re dynamics perhaps. I think if I make a video for you about this piece you'll gain more than if I do the diabolic suggestion, and that the ideas will be able to be carried over anyway.

Would you like that, or do you feel you have enough to do on this piece already? I presume you are still working on the content from birba's video as I notice some of his ideas haven't been implemented yet.. Andm1469has made some excellent suggestions so there is plenty to think about..

[costicina]

Any suggestion/advice to improve will be most welcome. And every improvement can be helpful for piano playing in general, not only for a specific piece. So, if you are so kind to make a video for me, I'll be thankful.
Birba's video have proven to be so precious, and very helpful. I tried to follow his advices, but sometimes it's hard to get rid of bad habits. I still have to "interiorize" and make "mine" his suggestions.

Chopin's Etudes are a life-long  undertaking, one is never finished with them. I'm afraid teh Revolutionary will continue to plague my family and neighbours for an inordinate amount of time     

Thank you again

[m1469]

Chopin's Etudes are a life-long  undertaking, one is never finished with them.

This is true, of course, about the Etudes, about this piece, about playing in general, and about life  .  I have found that there is a very thin line, however, between understanding that as a kind of psychological solvent for overcoming overactive worrying and fussing in the wrong ways (and perhaps it being right to let something go for a time), vs. using it as an excuse, consciously or subconsciously, from really addressing and overcoming the task(s) and challenges at hand.  So, just be aware of whether or not you fundamentally expect yourself to ever be able to play this as you'd like.  It is the heart's end goal which we actually seek first, with each step.  

[ajspiano]

Birba's video have proven to be so precious, and very helpful. I tried to follow his advices, but sometimes it's hard to get rid of bad habits. I still have to "interiorize" and make "mine" his suggestions.

I was going to go over birbas video again but he seems to have removed it..  It can be hard to remove bad habits. I think also when talking about the piano its very easy to identify and talk about what not to do. Explaining what to do on the other hand is extremely difficult.

As an example perhaps, birba pointed out that you have some excessive movement going on with the RH chords that form the transition between bars 11 and 12. I notice that you are still doing that.

Its always tough to work out from the 'teacher' perspective exactly whats going on here and to provide help, especially in a video. People don't move too much or move in the wrong way deliberately, its always a subconcious choice that solves a particularly technical issue. In this case I'm guessing that you feel a particular distance between these to chords and since you have to get from one to the other quickly you have to make a large fast movement.

That movement you are doing there solves your problem in that it gets you're hand there quickly, but it creates other problems..  it looks as though you are almost brushing forward across the keys and lifting your arm at the same time as trying to play down into the keys so the movements counteract each other.

Its also not sufficient to simply say "dont do that excessive movement" because that movement is solving a technical problem, taking it away is going to leave you with a problem. But explaining a solution is always difficult, and demonstrating it is difficult too because right ways and wrong ways can look so similar.

Anyway, I might give that one a crack for you..  along with a couple of other things.

Ofcourse I'm fussing over pretty particular details, in reality you CAN play the revolutionary etude which is very impressive 

Chopin's Etudes are a life-long  undertaking, one is never finished with them. I'm afraid teh Revolutionary will continue to plague my family and neighbours for an inordinate amount of time     

If I had someone next door practicing the rev I'd be thrilled and want to hear more. Will post something within the next day or so for you - till then best of luck.

AJ

[costicina]

You got the point: I tried to play the RH chords as Birba illustred me to do, but I couldn't manage simultaneously hitting the right notes and respectin the dynamic (there should be a diminuendo).
I'm aware also that I use still too much pedal, sometimes to hide wrong notes    , and that overall it should sound more fluid, fast, expressive....

Thank you again AJ, you are very kind, and your insights are always interesting, fruitful and beneficial. Keep on helping me, please!!!!

[rachfan]

Hi Margherita,

I'd like to call your attention to something interesting on the video.  Please look at the opening of the piece, specifically measures 5 through 8, heard during seconds 10-13 on your video.  Here both hands are simultaneously playing the same figuration in parallel.  Neither hand has any advantage over the other as they are simply mirroring one another at the separation of an octave.  It would be similar to playing the C minor scale hands together in four octaves ascending and descending in parallel motion.  The principles and articulation are the same for both hands.  

Now, during the execution in those measures, watch closely the wrists of both hands.  Your right wrist is a wonderful example of how this figuration should be played.  Notice how your forearm, wrist and hand are neutrally and naturally extended to the keyboard.  In fact, you could even lay a ruler over those three links in the playing apparatus, and the ruler would be as level as a perfect highway.  Nor is your right wrist rigid despite appearances.  It is only as supple as it needs to be.

Next watch the left wrist in that same section. The left wrist is undulating up and down like a porpoise swimming in the sea!  So in the same figuration, the left wrist motion is altogether different from the right wrist.  If the music were requiring you to drop the LH into a chord, and there was then a slight drop of the wrist as a follow-through motion, it would be explainable; or, if the LH were lifting to taper off the end of a phrase, that motion would be justified too--both of those being just a couple of examples of flexible, vertical motion in the wrist.  

From watching, I get the same sense as birba, that is that the left hand thumb is a bit "lazy" and not fully articulating.  Thus, because it's not articulating, and yet you must play the piece, the wrist is over-compensating actively trying to counteract the relative inactivity of the thumb.  The wrist and hand are wonderful at positioning fingers, but are no match at all for the actual dexterity of the fingers.  While the wrist is doing everything it can to adjust for the thumb, it can't fully succeed in that task--because the task is impossible.  In fact, it sometimes causes the execution to falter, producing unevenly played notes, notes that are too quiet, missed notes or even wrong notes.  

Perhaps try this: Forget the right hand for the time being.  On those measures I mentioned above, play the left hand alone.  In doing so, your intent is to replicate what the right wrist can do automatically.  So, extend the LH naturally and neutrally to the keyboard.  As you play the figuration, you do NOT want the LH wrist to be like a door hinge; rather, see if you can maintain that straight line of the forearm, wrist and hand requiring more of a firm wrist during the playing. But the whole mechanism is not tense, but rather relaxed.  Then play as slowly as you need to, and gradually bring it more up to speed.  Immediately the thumb will be obliged to actively assume its role and to play its notes.  If you succeed, I believe that you could then transfer that same technique to the rest of the piece.  Bear in mind that this cannot be corrected overnight.  It will take some time.

So why does this show up?  Because this is a left hand etude!  Oh yes, the right hand plays melodic octaves and adds much drama to the music.  But the left hand does most of the work while the right hand gets most of the glory.  That's one of the benefits of the Chopin Etudes--they test the fine points of technique and help to improve it.  But they're also beautiful pieces to play.

I hope this helps.  

David

[ajspiano]

*everything rachfan said*

I suspect that this is something that cortot's exercises aims to resolve..

page 78..  though the scribd viewer thinks its page 74.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/14182617/Cortot-Chopin-Etudes-Op10Students-Edition

the LH exercises force you to turn your forearm, and create the motions that go down the whole phrase, though thinking about it you could probably still play it the wrong way if you really tried.

I don't know how sold I am on the benifits of some of cortots exercises. I think exploring them did help me to some degree though - and they did give me some ideas for other pieces. They seem mostly geared toward getting the arm moving into the appropriate place, since a rigid forearm and wrist will be the death of you throughout this piece. Some of them are fairly weird though.. the exercise for bars 15-16 puts you into a really weird spot that you wouldnt ever dream of doing in reality..

[costicina]

Thank  all you for your replies, with all my heart!!

To m1469: your are right, m1469 (but when are you wrong?). Anyway,  don't worry, I've learned (traumatically) that aiming at impossibile goals can ruin our lives. So I'm not pursuing an unattainable ideal of perfection with my Etude (and in life in general   ), but I know that I can do better than this. I'll let the piece rest for a while, than, with patience, will pick it up again. Besides, I don't want to forget it, I enjoy so much to play this Etude!!!

To David: thank you again for the attention you reserved to my difficulties. It's so generous of you!!!
Reflecting upon your remarks, I think I know the source of the mistakes you detected.

My past teachers' method was of the stone age: they barely allow me to move my hand and  wirst (not to mention forearm, arm, body:  streng verboten!!). They asked me to keep my hands as still as possible, moving only the fingers, rising them high and then hitting loud the keys. That as well as other insensate precepts, created insurmontable speed wall and countless problems, inducing me to quit.

I think that my actual "lazy fingers" problem is the consequence of my efforts to get rid of those craps. But I'm aware I'm mistaking in the opposite direction....As Birba  demonstrated (I dont' know why he removed his precious videos   ), the fingers should be active, very active in a piece like this: they and  the hand and the wrist and the whole body.

Identifying the problem is the better way to get a solution. You helped me to do this essential step, David. Oh, I wish I had teachers like you and Birba  and AJ in my teens!!! Perhaps now it's too late...    

To AJ: I'm so thankful to you that I forgive your week-end on the beach (I'm atrociously envious         ). I've the Cortot edition, I'll check it to find some useful hints.

Margherita

[costicina]

I know that the proper destination of this post should be the Students’ corner board, but since it’s a kind of appendix to  my previous Revolutionary thread in the Audition room, I’ll post it in this  board (I hope I won’t be banned for that   )

David, m1469, Birba, AJ:  I reflected thoroughly upon your advices and remarks.  I tried to implement them to the first section of the Etude, practicing it  HS, then HT; slowly, then speeding up. Here is the outcome.
If and when you’ll have the time and the patience to watch this short video, please, tell me  if you see some improvement, even a slight one, or if I’m persisting pervicaciously in my mistakes.

P.S. Forgive me if I'm too insistent, but as I said I have a score to settle with this piece....

Many, many thanks in advance.
Margherita

[hakki]

Good to see that you are improving!!

Honestly, I haven't read through the thread and this might be suggested before.
But for the moment being may I  suggest you to play or practice this etude only:
 
- without using the sustain pedal. And I mean literally no pedal ever.

- Very slow.  You must play so slow that, in every moment your hand and wrist should remain as relaxed as possible. Pressing each note to the bottom of the keybed and immediately relaxing the downward movement of your finger when you reach the bottom. Because if you still press the key that has no place to move that will create tension.

- Very legato.

- Very evenly. So even that all the notes played are precisely of equal value and volume. I mean the sixteenths at the left hand.

- Note perfect. I mean really perfect. Not even allowing a single missed or wrong note.

- Again, very, very relaxed. But being very conscious of your relaxation and very focused. Both mentally and physically.  It is something like checking yourself every second that there isn't any, but really any sign of tension.

edit: especially pay close attention that your shoulder is very relaxed, always being at the lowest point it could be.

Hope these help your way through this etude.

regards,

[candlelightpiano]

MARGHERITA: I know I can offer no good suggestions, being the struggling pianist that I am, but I enjoyed both your videos very much. Don't be disheartened. You've come a long, long way. This is a difficult piece to master. Keep at it and you'll overcome. I'm very proud of you!

[49410enrique]

i think you have more than enough to go on with all the wonderful advice given to you thus far, i only want to offer encouragement, keep at it we all want you to play it as well as you want, i'm sure you'll get it there

quick side q, see attached, whose leg is that?

[costicina]

Hakki, Choo, Enrique,
I want to thank you for your encouragement!!!

Hakki, you are so right!!! I know that to really master this piece you have to practice in the way you were so kind to suggested me.

Choo, you are a sweetie, as always, so nice and sympathetic...the best pal I could hope to find!

Enrique, you too are extraordinarily kind and encouraging, and I love your wit: you have the gift to cheer me up (that mysterious leg is of my daughter Costanza, who like me is polluting this forum with her performances at the piano  )

You have no idea how much you are helping me: not only with technical, concrete advices, but also with an unvaluable moral support. You are motivating me, giving me renewed strenght and fervour.
I'm too shy to perform in public, so you are my only audience (my family and the cat don't count, of course): a dream audience, competent, inspiring, and so warm....
I'm monotonous, I know (and my English is  atrocious) but let me say once again: thank you THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!

Margherita

[ajspiano]

Hello hello -

hope this helps - Please remember I'm still learning the piece, so my ideas may be flawed and my playing isn't perfect.

PART 1 - fluency in bars 7-8
I've kind of assumed that you know how to break down the elements of this and practice small chunks since you have obviously read a lot of bernhards posts. Point being that if the movement isnt already part of your playing you might have to do small groups of notes before building up the whole phrase.

The RH here is harder to demonstrate in an exaggerated way so my arm got a bit raised, with that in mind don't try to emulate me exactly, just have a go and do what feels comfortable for you.

also, the motion does not have to cause an accent, i'm just using accents to highlight it.

Part 2 - EXCESSIVE MOVEMENT IN CHORDS
I just want to make a note, because having watched the video I notice that my wrist is raised a fair bit when I'm over the keys for the C minor chord. The movements are all larger than they need to be for the particular phrase and you have to play 'down' into the c minor as much as the Ab major. The lift with the raise wrist is just the transition between the chords.

I talk about the lift and the down motion separately, but they must be felt as one fluent motion..  "Up-Down" not "up..  ..down"

Also, that I use the word wrist a lot and that the movement is not a wrist movement. Its controlled by the arm and that results in the wrist position changing..

Part 3 - bar 55
you can take this or leave this, its just a thought..

The whole thing was done in a bit of a rush so please apply with caution and ask questions rather than struggle with not understanding completely. Its all about technicalities too..  don't focus too much there and forget about the dynamics. Technique is always to facilitate musicality.

AJ

[hakki]

I would like to add one more suggestion:

To get all the notes secure you can also try to practice all of the left hand in portamento style. That is with very small lifts between each note, with the wrist being very relaxed.

I personally find this way of practicing useful to train my brain to memorize the finger patterns that is used. Since you make small slow movements for playing each note, the position of your hand and finger that is most comfortable for playing that note can be determined.

I hope this makes sense.

Good luck and I wish the best.

regards,   

[costicina]

Thank you, Hakki!!!!!           

[rachfan]

Hi Margherita,

I see some improvement, but also still see the left wrist undulating up and down up and down. The problem appears to be the lazy left thumb.  In rapid passage work such as this, the thumb has to be "anticipatory" so to be on time for positioning itself and to play its notes. Usually it does not manage to do so in this etude.  The undulating wrist seen in the video does not really assist the thumb.  Instead it acts to conceal the problem of it not articulating.  The fingers are perpendicular to the piano keys and play the keys directly from above.  The thumb, of course, is different, as it plays the keys more on its side which is a bit more awkward.  All the more reason it must be anticipatory in its positioning in order to be in place where and when needed.

The late concert artist Jorge Bolet was a strong believer in "the quiet hand".  By that he meant that in the playing there should always be economy of motion--meaning that unless a motion is absolutely necessary, then there should be no motion.  In piano playing there is no place or time for superfluous motions or gestures. All they succeed in doing is interfering with technique and the quality of performance.  If you ever watched Bolet playing, his hands were ever so calm.  My sense is that your wobbling the left wrist up and down (while the right wrist is wonderfully demonstrating the "the quiet hand") is an impediment to your playing this etude as you want to.  The wave action in that wrist is wasted motion.  Your right wrist already avoids wasted motions.

I suggest you sit at the piano and in measures 5 through 8, with the left hand only, play the descending figuration there very slowly, watching carefully to see if you can quiet the left wrist so as to eliminate the wave-like motion now afflicting it. Think fingers, not wrist. Keep the wrist and hand level!  Once in awhile, add the right hand and watch both wrists very closely and compare them to see if the left has mastered what the right is already doing very well. Don't stop the retraining until the the left wrist is as calm as the right wrist.

Once you get that far, I believe the issue of the lazy left thumb will become much more obvious to you. Right now the wobbling left wrist is concealing that shortcoming.  So the next step will be playing very slowly, and being anticipatory to get the left thumb into position each and every time to clearly articulate its notes.

Very, very seldom do I recommend that a pianist work on five-finger exercises; however, in this instance I do suggest it.  If you were to work just on Part I of Hanon with only the left hand--while concentrating on the quiet hand and getting the thumb into position on time--it could bring a noticeable improvement to your technique.

Again, Margherita, this problem cannot be solved in 24 hours.  I know you're eager and impatient  to play this etude as soon as possible.  But I suspect that achieving the quiet left  hand as well as the active and anticipatory left thumb is going to take a few weeks if not more.  Changing habits is very hard and time consuming work!  

David      


 

[ajspiano]

In light of what david is saying..

I think I should point out that in my video when I'm demonstrating in the first section my LH can look a little as if i'm doing a wrist dipping kind of thing, that's not what is going on. Its a turning of the arm that supports the fingers articulation, and aids in getting the arm to move across to the higher notes....

This highlights the difficulty in explaining this stuff - too often we end up saying or doing things that contradict each other even though we are essentially making the same overall points (with different focus areas).

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for the terrific video, AJ!! I enjoyed it very much even though I'm not learning this piece. You're a fine teacher and your explanations and examples are very clear.

[m1469]

I fear that I should not have mentioned anything in the first place because I feel it's made a problem, actually, and I don't think trying to word it out via internet is going to help.  So, please just forget what I said .

[costicina]

With all these generous, helpful inputs, I would be a hopeless case if I won't be able to play this piece flawlessly in a reasonable span of time!!!

m1469, your insights are always inspiring; I've no intention to ignore what you said, and please, don't quit posting in my threads!!!

David, you are right (and thank you so much for your patience!!!).
I'm too impatient and impulsive...  I was eager to experiment your suggestions, but "Rome wasn't built in a day"  .  I'll give myself the due  time, working at this piece bit by bit, and practicing other pieces at the same time, to avoid the risk to get "burned out".

AJ, I answered you in the Student's corner board. Here I want just to reaffirm my gratefulness

Choo, you are my great pal. Your encouragement do help me, as your example of determination and patience...thank you!!!!

Well, I'm afraid you are  doomed to undergo the ordeal of a III take of the Rev, but I swear, not before it's really "ready" for the Audition room!!!

Thank you for everything, my friends. I can't do nothing without you...

Yours
Margherita

[johnmar78]

Marg,,,wait for me, just got back from work and listened to your ahrd working studing.I listened it once. Below is listed time that you will look into it in detail.

0.16;39;54;56;1.09;1.25;1.19;1.30;1.38;1.49;2.01;2.05;2.33;2.45;2.50(no  8)pedal for ending chord sounds better.

I had a general feeling that your heart is faster than your hands can do; by all means you need to practice at slower tempo, it does not matter how slow, but slow enough that you can HEAR each notes and play it evenly. I have been thru the same cycle as you did. Now back to square one.
Like I did with Chioin op10-10 my trial at slower tempo that at least youself can hear each notes either LH or RH. When played it together.
This rule applies the same for your work too.
For some heavy chords I reckon you should add more upper body-lean forward to get a stronger F/FF.
Anyway, I look forward to your next recording....

[costicina]

Thank you, Johnmar78!!!!       
I agree: at this point, slow work, aiming at perfect accuracy will be from now on my watchword.

There will be no escape for you: my III version of the Rev is coming soon         
(but this time it'll be almos flawless, I'll give you my word of honour!!!

[starstruck5]

If Chopin was teaching you this piece -he would say that playing the piano is easy when you know the kind of sound you want to produce - of course we need to have very fluid motions and all the rest of it -but the key is precise and perfect alignment of the hand - married to a great sensitivity for creating a beautiful tone -

Others more qualified than I have gone into the piano mechanics - (which really make my head spin sometimes if I am honest) - what I hear is someone well on her way to playing this very difficult piece really well -  don't get disheartened - you are much further down the road than many of us! 

I read through this study earlier today - much to the annoyance of my neighbour no doubt - but I found it full of technical challenges you have done well to overcome - You have inspired me to finally attempt this piece though! So thank you for the inspiration!

[candlelightpiano]

[quote author=costicina link=topic=44737.msg488115#msg488115 date=1327419232
There will be no escape for you: my III version of the Rev is coming soon          
(but this time it'll be almos flawless, I'll give you my word of honour!!!
[/quote]

I CANNOT WAIT!! PERHAPS I SHOULD BRING MY NETBOOK TO JAMAICA SO I WON'T MISS IT!!!    And I'm sure it will be flawless!! And look, you inspired StarStruck5!

[costicina]

...

[costicina]

Thank you, Starstruck5, you are always so kind and encouraging (and I desperately need support in my endeavour to re-start piano playing after so many years and with my awful background). Please, give a try at this Etude, if I could do it, everbody can!! It's less scary than it seems, after all.... Please, let me know about your progresses   , and thank you again!!!!

Choo, I promise I'll wait for you before posting my III version of this Etude  . I suspect that reading that, most of the forumeers are secretly hoping you'll stay in Jamaica as long as possibile, to delay  the pain to listent to my umpteenth attempt  to perform this piece      
But I hope you'll be back soon...    
 
Margherita

[rachfan]

Hi ajspiano,

Yes I fully understood and agreed with your video tutorial.  You did a fine job with that.

David

[pianoman53]

Okay, a few things before I comment on the video?
What's up with all the "Im soooo sorry for sending yet another video!!". Either be sorry about it, and stop posting (In kindergarden we learn that saying "I'm sorry" means that you learn from your mistake, and will not repeat them), or you stop saying you're sorry. Everyone knows it's difficult, so you don't have to explain how much a "life long work" this is. (I may not agree on the term "life long", but that doesn't matter).

And I know it was a joke, but who says that her daughter pollutes the forum with her videos? If I'm not mistaken, you're her teacher, and therefore, it's just as much you're "fault" that she plays in whatever way she plays.
That's something that really annoys me. "Tiger mum" is one thing, cause, somehow, it works. But to just say "No sorry, my daughter sucks..." is just being a jerk.


Back to the video:
You basically have everything now. So don't make a new video for a while, but practise slooooowly (as someone mentioned). And not slowly as in "Omg, this is boring", but as the piece would have been written andante. Play as you'd play it in tempo (with all the correct motions) and with full care on dynamics, colour, phrasing...

Have fun!

[costicina]

 x

[costicina]

From Gyorgy Sandor, On piano playing:



Maybe this can explay my so discussed LH wrist movement….

[candlelightpiano]

Okay, a few things before I comment on the video?
What's up with all the "Im soooo sorry for sending yet another video!!". Either be sorry about it, and stop posting (In kindergarden we learn that saying "I'm sorry" means that you learn from your mistake, and will not repeat them), or you stop saying you're sorry. Everyone knows it's difficult, so you don't have to explain how much a "life long work" this is. (I may not agree on the term "life long", but that doesn't matter).
And I know it was a joke, but who says that her daughter pollutes the forum with her videos? If I'm not mistaken, you're her teacher, and therefore, it's just as much you're "fault" that she plays in whatever way she plays.
That's something that really annoys me. "Tiger mum" is one thing, cause, somehow, it works. But to just say "No sorry, my daughter sucks..." is just being a jerk.

There is no excuse for your rudeness to Costicina. There is not one good reason for you to have said the things you said to her. You need to apologize.

[costicina]

xx

[costicina]

Hey Pianoman53, take it easy!
I wonder what kind of kindergarten you were raised in: saying “I’m sorry” is wrong, but calling “a jerk” somebody who has done no harm to you is ok?       Mah!!!

If you dislike so much my posts/threads, you can simply ignore them. Your rudeness is gratuitous, since I’ve ever tried to be polite and kind with everybody in this forum, that I like and appreciate a lot…..

Regards

Margherita

[pianoman53]

When was I rude? I said "Everyone knows it's difficult, so you don't have to be sorry for it" Geez.. okay, I wont give you any advice. Bye

[costicina]

Why don't you quote your whole reply? For me at leat it was rude ("jerk" is not exactly a polite way to address somebody). But  clearly we have different standard of "politeness" Your last reply,  too, is not exactly a model of kindness....
Anyway don't worry, I can survive without your opinion.....

Regards
Margherita

[rachfan]

Hi Margherita,

Thanks for posting Sandor's illustration above.  

In connection with that, please see his comments on page 119.  I quote:

"One word of caution: whenever the wrist, hand, and arm are in action, watch the fingers. They tend to become passive, motionless and tend to hang over the keys. There must be a coordinated action between the fingers and the rest of the apparatus; the fingers must always be slightly raised before playing, and they should be constantly active."

"We must synchonize our actions so that each component does its own work, thereby reducing all motions to their minimum.  But one does not substitute the work of any one component for the work of another. You will find that if one is inactive or overactive, the other components will compensate for it.  Avoid excessive motions, don't raise the fingers too high, and don't make large circular motions with the wrist, forearm, or upper arm."

Right now the left thumb, clearly visible from the video, is passive.  It still does not articulate on its own, but instead waits for the sinking motion of the wrist to depress its key for it.  Thus the inert thumb doesn't actively depress the key, but a different component--the wrist--forces the thumb down to compensate for the thumb lying asleep on the keytop.  Instead, the thumb should be poised above the key and independently depress it to sound the note. Also, because of the passive thumb, the wrist is making what Sandor refers to as "a circular motion" (down-up, down-up), along with the forearm and upper arm.  The degree of this motion is exaggerated to the point where it's in direct contrast to what the right wrist and thumb are doing while playing the identical same music. On the video the visual difference between the two wrists is very dramatic.

I think Sandor's comments above are all the more relevant, as this tempo is Allegro con fuoco.  It's a rapid pace.  The more exaggerated the motions in rapid passage work, the less efficient the execution. Despite Chopin's slur marks over the note groupings, the left hand must sound legatissimo.  So also notice that underneath the left hand figuration, there is one long all-inclusive phrase mark there! Therefore, to play as Sandor suggests, there can be no exaggerated motions there. The necessary motions aren't invisible, but they are very subtle indeed.  The appearance of the left wrist will not in truth be stiff, but will be as quiet as possible while retaining its flexibility.

I think part of the plan must be to allow your right wrist to teach the left wrist.

I hope this helps.  

David

[candlelightpiano]

Margherita: You're doing wonderfully well. Keep it up. I completely agree with you regarding what PianoMan said. If he didn't like your post, he didn't need to respond. No one is forced to respond to any thread. Responding with rudeness is unacceptable.

[costicina]

David, thank you so much for your advice! You're the best teacher of the world (why, why didn't have somone like you in my teens? Probably now I'm to old  to get rid of bad habits     ).
But if identifying a problem is the key to solving it, I'm on the right road (thanks to your patient and precious suggestions).

I'll try to practice LH alone, very slowly, coniugating supple wrist with active fingers, focussing note by note to the right movement. And you are also so right about RH teaching LH. If you noticed, in my video, LH plays better the descending scala when it plays it in unison with RH.

Thank you again, David, du bist unersetzlich!!! Without you this forum would not be the same...

Choo: your example has done wonders for me. I've no intention to give up. Sooner or later, we'll post a surprisingly good version you of the FI, me of the Rev!!!

Margot

[rachfan]

Hi Margot,

Thanks for all your kind words!  I appreciate that.  When I was reading Sandor's remarks that I quoted, it sounded much like what I had been "preaching" about avoiding exaggerated motions and ensuring that the thumb as a component do it's own job effectively.  I read Sandor's book many years ago, so this may have influenced my thinking on the matter.  I have a good library of piano performance books here.  

Sandor was a pupil of Thoman who studied with Liszt.  So Sandor had really fine teaching.  The other day I mentioned Bolet, another proponent of "the quiet hand" in playing.  He was a pupil of the great Josef Hofmann, who studied with Anton Rubinstein.  So he too came from great pianistic traditions.

As you practice that passage in those opening measures that is so telling, think fingers more than wrist. The wrist needs to always be supple, but the fingers will do most of the work there including the thumbs. The rest of the playing apparatus, including the wrist, will position the hand and fingers as best they can; however the wrist cannot compensate to the extent of taking over the work of the fingers.

I hope your diligent practicing bears fruit for you.  If you find after a time that you are not getting the desired results, it might be best to put this etude away for awhile.  Sometimes when we do that, the subconscious mind continues to work on the piece without our even knowing it.  Then later on when we try the piece again, it seems easier.

Regarding repertoire, this etude is a challenge for you, so it can "stretch" your abilities.  But every piece you play cannot be a stretch piece.  You also need to practice and play pieces at the level of difficulty that are truly comfortable to you.  Then as you learn an occasional stretch piece, the technique will "gel" as you play your greater number of easier pieces.

By the way, every pianist, even the best, avoid playing certain pieces. Given their technical abilities along with style, composer, and other preferences, they play repertoire that is most satisfying to them.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It's simply the decision of the individual pianist.  Young pianists do need to become well rounded pianists.  But more mature pianists can later specialize within a narrower range of the repertoire of particular interest to them.  So never feel that you must play a particular piece.  You have many choices available. The piano literature is vast beyond imagination.  And life is too short to explore even a little of it!

David  

[costicina]

Thank you so much, David!!!
I was ondering, too, if I should leave this piece in "stand-by", fearing to get burned out. But I'm noticing that practicing slowly, focussing on troublesome passages (ofetn only few notes), is helping me a lot to gain confidence and, so to speak, a kind of easiness in playing it.

Anyway, I'm practicing  other pieces meanwhile. After an overdose of Rachmaninov (I love late romantic composers, like you!!) I  returned to Chopette (Etude op 25 n 1, almost finished, and in the next future, op 25 12, my favoured one). I'm also tackling another challenging piece of entirely different kind, Prokofiev's Suggestion diabolique, but I'm proceeding at snail's pace.

  If, say, in ten days I won't see any improvement with the Rev, I'll take a break from it.
Anyway, it was not wasted time. I've learned so much in the process!!! ... And I had the chance to meet extraordinary teachers like you     

I'm really, deeply grateful to you, Dave

Marg

[rachfan]

Hi Margo,

By the way: When we put a piece aside, it is either temporarily (to allow it to hibernate for awhile), or permanently because the level of difficulty is simply too high.  In the latter case, always do it with NO regrets!  It happens to all of us.

In helping you, the pleasure is all mine. 

Dave

[faj]

there is already wonderful music there ... congratulation you won your bet !!

[jesc]

This is a bit late in reply but I just gained some insight on etudes. I recalled someone who posted a vid doing Chopin's Revolutionary here and having some difficulties, technically.

IMO etudes are meant to highlight a pianist's weaknesses and help overcome them. The more difficulties you encounter, the more the piece becomes useful. (I mean, what use is the etude if you've already displayed the tehnical proficiency it's supposed to improve?) Now, I recall doing Chopin's etudes in my teen years probably (15+). It wasn't that memorable cause I didn't experience any "extreme" obstacle.

However, doing a liszt etude with no option but to perfect it because of my upcoming recital, I experienced an obstacle I never came across: push my finger dexterity to its limits. What I can say from experience is that the benefits of actually being able to cross a certain line is worth it. Right now, the aforemetioned etude gave me a tool that I can implement on all my pieces.

From my experience also, I can vouch for this, the revolutionary etude gave my left hand a tremendous advantage.

You'll have to overcome the weaknesses either with this piece or by other means (self made exercises or other pieces). They could manifest in every piece you play.

 
     

[pianoplayjl]

Hi Margot, I just want to drop in and say you are doing a good job. You must have begun hibernating this piece. I hibernated my scales for a few weeks unintentionally and as I began playing them again, they somehow improved. So I hope that also happens with your Chopin etude. And no piece is too hard and like Bernhard said, there are only 2 types of pieces, the easy and the impossible. This piece has to fit in the easy category for you. I can't wait for your Aeolian Harp.

JL

[lalo57]

Hey, I don't think that was bad at all actually. I'm trying to nail it, but have a bit of an issue with the modulation part. Would you please hand me a couple of tips to study it? Thank u by the way English is not my mother tongue so forgive the flaws.