Chopin's 24 Études (Realization by Guy Bacos with new approach)

[bustthewave]

You don't seem to get the fact that he is not here for the same reason everyone else is.

He is being compensated to come in here and do what amounts to an infomercial.

I'm not arguing the quality of the recordings. I don't care if their midi, edited, or played by a monkey.

I DO care that this Guy is spamming every piano forum on the net pretending to be a "casual" user, when in fact, he is really here to sell these samples for Vienna Library.

So Guy, are you a paid employee, contractor or do you get free software? What's the real deal here?

I thinks it's actually a worse type of spam to follow someone to a happy little forum and start mild flaming.

If he were spamming, he would have dumped information and ran, never to reply or return. He hasn't done that, and he did produce the work in question, so who cares if he also plugs the VSTs or his website? And i've checked out his website, and he's a damn good composer.

[guy5]

To continue our discussion from PW I'd like to know: when you do the edits, do you feel or fear that there is a tradeoff between musicality and perfection? I am not talking about correcting mistakes here but for example, if there is a slightly uneven run and you correct it to be absolutely even, do you also lose something? Cannot small imperfections due to physical limitations in some sense be part of the interpretation, and even foreseen by the composer? While this comes naturally when playing I imagine it to be quite difficult to take into account in the editing.

Yes, this is a good question.

Ok you mentioned the danger of perfectly even runs. Well, this is out of the question. The reason is, the worst thing you can do when proceeding like this is removing what is good, which is the musical side. so you have to be able to recognize what you DON'T WANT TO REMOVE. And this is the hardest part, you don't want to do a bad trade off, something that sounds musical but with several imperfection, for something that sounds perfect. Maybe my experiment as a programmer mixed with performer, gave me some ability to make the right balance. I actually to this very quickly cause I know if how to make the distinction of what to keep and what to improve. When I record a passage and after listening to it I feel the emotion from it, this becomes a bit delicate, you don't want to change that feeling. So sometimes I change very little if nothing. But other times, something isn't right, example, On Op 25 no 5, I kept listening to the bouncy part and couldn't put my finder on what was wrong. After a while I realize I wasn't accentuating the dissonant grace note enough, when I increased the velocity of those notes, it completely change the Étude, suddenly I enjoyed listening to it, and in this sense it became educational as maxtrainfla pointlessly mentioned, from now on when I play it, I will accent these notes. In fact a lot of the changes I done, I now include them in the way I play, because my ear has become sensitive to them. Sort of like when a teacher plays to the student how it should sound. And I must admit this research was a lot of fun, I really enjoyed listening tons a great pianists play these Études, how each played a certain passage.  I know i'm not being very specific about the changes I done, let's see, what else? Let's take the example of Op 25 No 6, Étude in thirds. One of my fav. I have heard a lot of pianists play that one, and it seems like a race, some play it really fast, and the faster they play it, the louder it is with many harsh corners. When I recorded it I had set the MIDI sensitivity so my the range of my dynamic would be in the softer end. I wanted the entire piece to revolve around softer and delicate dynamics with the exception of a few bars. As for my speed, it's certainly not the fastest, in fact all my versions not among the fastest, I could find one pianist for each Étude that plays it faster and for some, much faster. So getting the right speed was important. Another example is Op 25 No 2, I would think Chopin played this very delicately, but who can play it prestissimo and pianissimo end to end? I know I can't. So by lowering the velo though out, it added so much to the piece, and remember that Chopin's piano was not heavy sounding like the pianofortes of today. So I think Chopin would of enjoyed that version.

As to other things i did, Hmm! make little velo adjustments to shape melodies, anything to add expression. I would always sit back, listen to the passage, and then stop immediately the curser and say: "Right there!!!" and fix something, then again i'd start from the beginning and do the same process over and over until I was fully happy.

The last phase was to play it to someone I trusted had good taste, and he'd give me some comments, I would continue to make extra alterations with the comments I agreed on. Once again, I don,t know if I'm answering the question of what i done, how I done etc but feel free to ask for more clarifications.

[liszt85]

Yes, this is a good question.

Ok you mentioned the danger of perfectly even runs. Well, this is out of the question. The reason is, the worst thing you can do when proceeding like this is removing what is good, which is the musical side. so you have to be able to recognize what you DON'T WANT TO REMOVE. And this is the hardest part, you don't want to do a bad trade off, something that sounds musical but with several imperfection, for something that sounds perfect. Maybe my experiment as a programmer mixed with performer, gave me some ability to make the right balance. I actually to this very quickly cause I know if how to make the distinction of what to keep and what to improve. When I record a passage and after listening to it I feel the emotion from it, this becomes a bit delicate, you don't want to change that feeling. So sometimes I change very little if nothing. But other times, something isn't right, example, On Op 25 no 5, I kept listening to the bouncy part and couldn't put my finder on what was wrong. After a while I realize I wasn't accentuating the dissonant grace note enough, when I increased the velocity of those notes, it completely change the Étude, suddenly I enjoyed listening to it, and in this sense it became educational as maxtrainfla pointlessly mentioned, from now on when I play it, I will accent these notes. In fact a lot of the changes I done, I now include them in the way I play, because my ear has become sensitive to them. Sort of like when a teacher plays to the student how it should sound. And I must admit this research was a lot of fun, I really enjoyed listening tons a great pianists play these Études, how each played a certain passage.  I know i'm not being very specific about the changes I done, let's see, what else? Let's take the example of Op 25 No 6, Étude in thirds. One of my fav. I have heard a lot of pianists play that one, and it seems like a race, some play it really fast, and the faster they play it, the louder it is with many harsh corners. When I recorded it I had set the MIDI sensitivity so my the range of my dynamic would be in the softer end. I wanted the entire piece to revolve around softer and delicate dynamics with the exception of a few bars. As for my speed, it's certainly not the fastest, in fact all my versions not among the fastest, I could find one pianist for each Étude that plays it faster and for some, much faster. So getting the right speed was important. Another example is Op 25 No 2, I would think Chopin played this very delicately, but who can play it prestissimo and pianissimo end to end? I know I can't. So by lowering the velo though out, it added so much to the piece, and remember that Chopin's piano was not heavy sounding like the pianofortes of today. So I think Chopin would of enjoyed that version.

As to other things i did, Hmm! make little velo adjustments to shape melodies, anything to add expression. I would always sit back, listen to the passage, and then stop immediately the curser and say: "Right there!!!" and fix something, then again i'd start from the beginning and do the same process over and over until I was fully happy.

The last phase was to play it to someone I trusted had good taste, and he'd give me some comments, I would continue to make extra alterations with the comments I agreed on. Once again, I don,t know if I'm answering the question of what i done, how I done etc but feel free to ask for more clarifications.

And that's a good answer. In case you didn't notice, PW is not exactly a place you would go share new ideas and expect appreciation (speaking from personal experience). Thanks for sharing your work. 

[johnlewisgrant]

Solution:

To be fair to everyone, and to recognize the current level of piano sampling, audio editing, and midi technology: piano street should separate "piano performance" forums from "midi-edited" forums.   

A performance forum would be one that displays an audio video record of the live performance.  The video is now totally cheap to do; the "I ain't got the fancy equipment" argument doesn't wash anymore.  The performance doesn't have to be at a real piano.  It just has to be a live performance.  Basically, if you've got a computer these days, the video capablity is there.   Sure, the video/audio thing can be faked, but it's not easy.

A midi forum--it could even be called a "midi-performance" forum, would be one in which no video is required, and essentially anything goes.  Guy's interpretations would be totally welcome there, and most important, subject to relevant criticism.

You can't have it both ways, because the playing field becomes hopelessly ambiguous:  "How much is you playing?"  "How much is you midi-editing?"  Would that be 20%?  50%?  What's your approach to playing those octave runs in the left hand?  "Oh, let me try to remember... did I midi-quantize those, or enter them in realtime.  How much did I speed them up in midi" 

You get it.  Any piano-player worth his or her salt will tell you that these sorts of discussions belong in a midi-editing forum, not in a performance forum.

As a dyed-in-the-wool midi hack (and as a rank amateur pianist) I can appreciate the feelings of pianists who really don't want to discuss the half-way house of midi-edited performances under the rubric of "piano performance."   

They're just Not the Same Thing!

You can't have it both ways.

JG

[troglodyte]

Thank you very much for the long explanation - precisely what I wanted to know!

[johnmar78]

Guy5, I have to say that the software VL you using is too good and insane. It is like some cosmetic make up or digitally enhenced music. The general impression from people thinks you   shape the dynamics, timing using the software rather played by your own hand and recorded exactly what it acutally sounded. Either true or not God knows, I have to say You have done a great job on these etude, editing and using its software  to its full advantage.

This is very good experiment indeed. I would be interesting to see if you can sell your Chopin etude cds commerically?  no offense. We are just as curious as you to see the public reaction. and What has had said here and piano society or else where is what you get. Because you are playing with fire? YOU asked the public to respond.

A bit like olympians taking on steriod. The pity thing is people want to see your VIDEO CLIP on any of your chopin etude since some of the playing is so good. I am sure you will submit to us soon.

Basically all pianist earn their respect thru proper training and hard work. I personally would not like to rely on the software, because  it lost its soul and true intention what so called "intepretation" thru piano. Perhaps, these kind of digital muisc should stayed in a special category from traditionalist.

Ok,I can shut up now , Your Video will be next, no excuses...

[guy5]

So johnlewisgrant, all I need to do is post a video of myself playing a few Études or maybe excerpts of a bunch, while seeing more than my hands and keyboard?

[johnlewisgrant]

So johnlewisgrant, all I need to do is show you a video of myself playing a few Études or maybe excerpts of a bunch, while seeing more than my hands and keyboard?

Here's a "to-do" list:

1. Apologize to anyone who may have been misled.   I haven't seen a guinine mea culpa.  I did it when something like this happened to me years ago.  It worked.

2. Perform an Etude live if you can or if you want to.  But short of performing the whole cycle, folks in the know will draw the inescapable conclusion: "He can play some of them. The rest are 50%, 80% or 100% pre-existing midi files.. or played in small chunks then speeded up, maybe voice by voice, etc., etc.."   

(Sorry, dude, but to say "He played one, so he can probably play them all," makes no logical sense.  You've heard of it?  "The fallacy of faulty generalization.")

3. If in fact you can only play through some of the Etudes, that's not a problem either.  You're not Martha Argerich.   Then you just have to be honest, as in: "some (or many or most) I can't perform live or in realtime to any large extent.  I play in the treble and then bass, I do step input, etc."   Whatever.   In these instances it's the midi-work that's absolutely front and centre, and let the listeners marvel over that, not an imaginary technique or technical grasp of the entire cycle.   That makes professional pianists real angry, for obvious reasons.

In short:

Where there's a video, fine; that means you can do that piece.  Where there isn't, that's fine too; just means you used other means... In either case, folks can get on with the important work of assessing the sample, the midi-editing, not other non-existent, or extraneous factors like a non-existent technique.

If anyone wants to wax philosophical about phenomenal technique, let them do that in the context of a video of your playing.   Anything else is wild speculation, or wishful thinking.

Again, bro, you can't have it both ways.   

"Hair club for men" moment:  You might want to say that you do demos for the sample company and that you really like the sample.  You don't have to say anything more than that.  But some folks, again for obvious reasons, would like to hear it mentioned.   Cat's out of the bag on that one, I guess.

JG

[troglodyte]

Solution:
---
To be fair to everyone, and to recognize the current level of piano sampling, audio editing, and midi technology: piano street should separate "piano performance" forums from "midi-edited" forums.   
---
JG

Interesting idea. Perhaps that is what will happen, but I wonder how one will draw the line. midi is not the only electronic representation. In one sense we already have this split: those who abhor editing should feel very comfortable at Piano Society. A less dramatic and more flexible solution is to be more careful when posting to say exactly how the piece was recorded and processed. After all, people not interested in particular techniques can then simply avoid those posts.

- - -

A bit like olympians taking on steriod.

- - -

Basically all pianist earn their respect thru proper training and hard work. I personally would not like to rely on the software, because  it lost its soul and true intention what so called "intepretation" thru piano. Perhaps, these kind of digital muisc should stayed in a special category from traditionalist.

The analogy with olympians on steroids is a bit unfair: that is actually physically dangerous and illegal. A better analogy would be a photographer using photoshop. So maybe Corbijn doesn't use photoshop much and still produces masterpieces. But if you go to the photo forums, do they ban photoshop? Not that I have seen, it seems to be the norm. No one seems to complain that photoshop takes away the soul. Perhaps music will go the same way. I really don't know, these are interesting times!

About the training and hard work: Guy has my deepest respect for precisely those reasons. Anyone who thinks that producing this result is easy must never have tried anything similar.

As a computer scientist I'd be interested to hear Guy's view on the software involved. What are the barriers? Will we likely see new breakthroughs? I am thinking both of the editing software and the sound producing software.

[guy5]

johnlewisgrant,

One thing is not clear here, is this because i said, I CAN play them all live? Or is there another reason for the request?

Something else, if I record them live, you can expect the purist to say, "Guy, I prefer by far this, with its imperfections" This will bring new issues, which will not help at all, and to what point do they really mean that, being purists...?

I could easily say, I done my job and the music will speak for itself. The headlines have been changed with a text explanation, maybe you missed it since it's been updated. So everything is now clear. If the only issue left is that it's not in the right section of the forum, then i will change sections, or ask the mod to do so.

Independently of this general request, I still WILL make a video of me playing, seeing my lovely face  , maybe a few Études, maybe a lot of them or maybe all 24 but that will be my decision, but not with a gun to my head to prove something to a few forums, and nothing personal here, of course.    I do play them all 24 and have most of them in concert, but i'm no Martha Argerich, now it is up to the people to believe what they want. Until then some people, mainly from PianoWorld will call me a fake, there is nothing I can do about that. I will just have to live with that.

[guy5]

That would not help, Eddy's not a mod or admin. He probably was too bewildered by the request to think of responding.
I think I cocked up with unlocking the thread, as it was still locked. But now it is unlocked. Go on  and give us some more food for discussion

I'm kind of out of breath with piano forums, this one is fine and no complaints.

[guy5]

Trying to make things better, I rectified as best I could the initial post. i'd like to get some feedback on this Unfortunately for PianoWorld, the post can't be changed. A few days ago, I sent a message to the mod from PW, saying there was a request from the members for me to change to title, but he never gave me a reply. And this time I'm sure he was a mod.

[johnlewisgrant]

Man oh man... I think we're back on track!

Thanks, Guy

JG

[guy5]

This forum is cool.

[pianovirus]

Trying to make things better, I rectified as best I could the initial post. i'd like to get some feedback on this Unfortunately for PianoWorld, the post can't be changed. A few days ago, I sent a message to the mod from PW, saying there was a request from the members for me to change to title, but he never gave me a reply. And this time I'm sure he was a mod.

Guy, don't you think it's a bit unfair to talk about people from other forums (e.g. the moderators of PW and PianoSociety) in their absence?

Btw, the PW discussion was much more about how you represent yourself on Youtube. I see the title still says "Guy Bacos plays Chopin" without a clarification regarding MIDI editing, not even in the description. Changed your mind?

Long live this forum, the ONLY piano forum where you can have a good discussion.

Don't dismiss the possibility that the discussion here did not get so heated because you gave the "fine print" about the MIDI editing away much earlier and in a more transparent way.

[maxtrainfla]

.

[guy5]

So this is where the great thread ends.. in the Miscellaneous bin where it belongs. Funny Guy after bad mouthing PianoWorld on every forum (except PW..LOL) that is the only place where you didn't end up beat down or moved to the slums!

BTW, I love how you got suckered by PianoSociety after telling me how "Classy" they were. They set you up and you fell hook, line and sinker! "Oh, Guy we'll reopen the thread, you got mistreated, come back come back"...

Also, it is now clear my Greg aka Synergy stuck up for you so much... he helped you produce these.. funny you guys didn't mention that.. I just figured he was your boyfriend.. can't imagine it took more than 1 person to produce that garbage.

Anyway, have a nice day!
 

Your post is totally unnecessary, however I am forced to reply. If you must comment in this rude fashion, it's because you are still having frustrations about this, as some others with multiple accounts earlier...  The only forum where the members showed class was vi control, where any trouble maker got quickly noticed by the administration and members, and got severely warned about his rude manner. You could always try yourself, but they are not that stupid with members registering on vi control and not notice people with multiple accounts, to specifically stir things up on a thread where it's going very peacefully. I have no doubt PW and PStreet are classy forums, but unfortunately the mods don't have time to monitor everything. Luckily the virus was caught in time on VI Control. Be my guest:

https://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24690&sid=747a31561adbfcf87ab5d2ce17b08316

I wish you as well a very pleasant day!  

[johnmar78]

very good Guyco, can you possible send us an example of raw data recording on ANY of piano works BEFORE and AFTER(digital enhencemet). This would give a public a better understaning how the VL software does.  Also, can your VL adapt to the standard grand or I need to intsall CEL system(I saw on the youtube  that piano plays itself after recoreded.
 Please tell us the mimium set up costs

[maxtrainfla]

.

[guy5]

So anyone who dares question The Great Bacos is a virus?

Guy, I have no problem with your work. I DO have a problem with the way you and your marketing team spammed every piano forum on the web and had those team members act like unrelated third parties to stick up for you and promote your product. 

You also refuse to answer for your actions, instead you and your smurfs go on the attack.

The reaon why all these threads across got shut down is you and your team going on the offensive when anyone dares question your motives.

I know once the lights are turned on you scurry away to your safe places.. kinda like a ... oh never mind it's just too easy.

I respect your feelings on this. Thanks for sharing them.

[maxtrainfla]

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