How can I practice on a lightly weighted piano?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay I've had this really bad digital piano for several years and some of the keys are beginning not to work, and over the years, the weight of my keys have been getting lighter and lighter.  So whenever I go to piano lessons, it's EXTREMELY difficult to play pieces up to speed because I'm used to lighter keys.  I do Czerny studies but it's kinda pointless if I can't play them up to speed on a REAL piano.

My piano teacher gave me permission to go to his house whenever I want to go practice but my parents are WAAAAAAAY overprotective and won't let me go because they think that someone is gonna call the cops on me because they would think that I'm robbing his house and then the cops would send me to PRISON or worse, SHOOT me.    

So I'm beginning to get really mad because I'm 16 years old and I want to prepare for college but I need heavier keys.  So is there such thing as like weights that you can put on an electric piano so that my hands don't get exhausted playing half a measure of fur Elise?

But if there is no way to weight your keys, then is there like a cheap digital piano with really heavy keys?

[birba]

Let me tell you something.  I think a pianist needs both.  I've been practising on a yamaha electric keyboard, now, for about a month.  This is a first for me.  I've been working on chopin op. 35.  So, a few days ago, I went to visit my friend in Nice who has a kawai grand - a regular size one.  Here's what resulted:  I could barely get through the scherzo, and the finale came out perfectly.  You know why?  Because working with an electric keyboard, I had to really "feather" touch the keys to get a piano in the last movement.  And it was so uneven.  then, when I changed to a regular piano with a resisting touch, it was a cinch.  On the other hand, the resistance to something fast and forte, like the scherzo, slows you down.  Wow, does it EVER slow you down!
But, I think in the long run, a lightly weighted piano is best.  Look at Horowitz.  He swore by that type of mechanism for practising. Because it develops sensitivity and variety in your touch.  Something similar happened to me way back in the dark ages when I gave my exams at the conservatory in Rome.  I had an old upright piano in my apartment which would play by itself if the wind blew in the room.  Really really light touch.  But when I went for my exams on a concert steinway grand, it felt like driving a Ferrari.  It took a few minutes to get used to it, but when I did it was " OMG! Give it the gas baby!  Here I come!!!!!"  
 But I can understand your dilemma.  I don't think there's anything you can do with an electric keyboard.  You might consider a silent keyboard which are really resistant.  However, I think if your teacher has made you this offer, to practise on his piano, I would really insist on it with your parents.  Maybe have him talk with them.

[teosoleil]

I don't think that's possible to get "weights" for a keyboard. My advice? Get a REAL acoustic piano, look on Craigslist for one maybe under 300. If your hands hurt on a real piano that simply then your fingers haven't strengthened or adapted over the years! That's bad (and I mean really bad..) It's going to take a lot to strengthen your hands to a person who has been playing on a real piano the same amount of time you've been playing, but I'm sure your muscles will strengthen in quick time for you to get used to grand piano action.

[pianoplayjl]

I know that sounds crazy but I have this mad idea. Why don't you turn off the keyboard and do some silent practicing? Work on the pieces like you normally do, except your focus is on touch, dynamics, etc. Press the keys very hard with all ur finger strength to simulate the resistance from standard pianos while practicing at normal tempo. The faster the piece, the more practice you get. It's a good idea to practice at ur teacher's place.

JL

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Teoseli, how long do you think it would take?

[keyboardclass]

Get a real piano and Birba's right - one with a light touch.

[nyiregyhazi]

I know that sounds crazy but I have this mad idea. Why don't you turn off the keyboard and do some silent practicing? Work on the pieces like you normally do, except your focus is on touch, dynamics, etc. Press the keys very hard with all ur finger strength to simulate the resistance from standard pianos while practicing at normal tempo.

To be honest, this is about the worst thing you can do. If there's low resistance, imagining more just makes for major impact. The key is to understand efficient movement- rather than merely get away with the fact that light actions are forgiving of different styles. A light action should never be forced- as most of exertion will go into heavy thuds at the keybed. I've almost finished writing a blog post that illustrates how to acquire an efficient quality of action. Since i've been using this style, my digital no longer feels too light. There's a way of moving confidently but never with any sense of exertion, in a way that means the energy is felt to go somewhere useful. In the past, trying to just pretend it was heavier was far less useful than treating it on its own terms. With the right style of movement, even a heavy action should not feel like much effort. If it feels like major effort on a light action, something is going seriously wrong.

[nyiregyhazi]

Let me tell you something.  I think a pianist needs both.  I've been practising on a yamaha electric keyboard, now, for about a month.  This is a first for me.  I've been working on chopin op. 35.  So, a few days ago, I went to visit my friend in Nice who has a kawai grand - a regular size one.  Here's what resulted:  I could barely get through the scherzo, and the finale came out perfectly.  You know why?  Because working with an electric keyboard, I had to really "feather" touch the keys to get a piano in the last movement.  And it was so uneven.  then, when I changed to a regular piano with a resisting touch, it was a cinch.  On the other hand, the resistance to something fast and forte, like the scherzo, slows you down.  Wow, does it EVER slow you down!
But, I think in the long run, a lightly weighted piano is best.  ractise on his piano, I would really insist on it with your parents.  Maybe have him talk with them.

What about the scherzo? If you can only have one, a heavier action is way more useful. If you're going to be performing on unfamiliar pianos, you have to be equipped to deal with heavy actions. A pianist who can only play a light action is a pretty useless pianist, unfortunately. Not everyone can tour with a special light piano. Also, Horowitz last recording was made on a piano with a very heavy action. He doubtless got to grips with countless heavier actions in his youth, before settling on lighter ones.

[birba]

You're right.  I was talking from my point of view.  I've had much more experience then rachmaninov forever and I have studied on very heavy actions in my time, and all in all, I prefer a heavier instrument in performing.  But, now, I feel that practising on a lighter weight instrument is much much more profitable.  there's no describing the scale of colors and dynamics that you can develop.  It's true, after practising on this electronic thing for almost a month, and then playing the scherzo, it WAS very difficult at first.  But after a few times it, too, benefited, I think from my yamaha experience.
I don't know how long rachmaninov-forever as beens studying, but perhaps you're right in him working on a heavier action instrument at this point.

[keyboardclass]

I don't know how long rachmaninov-forever has been studying, but perhaps you're right in him working on a heavier action instrument at this point.

...or perhaps you're not.

[nyiregyhazi]

You're right.  I was talking from my point of view.  I've had much more experience then rachmaninov forever and I have studied on very heavy actions in my time, and all in all, I prefer a heavier instrument in performing.  But, now, I feel that practising on a lighter weight instrument is much much more profitable.  there's no describing the scale of colors and dynamics that you can develop.  It's true, after practising on this electronic thing for almost a month, and then playing the scherzo, it WAS very difficult at first.  But after a few times it, too, benefited, I think from my yamaha experience.
I don't know how long rachmaninov-forever as beens studying, but perhaps you're right in him working on a heavier action instrument at this point.

Yeah, I certainly get where you're coming from. My Yamaha digital is very hard to play lightly yet confidently at the same time, with full control. There's a real danger of playing too negatively, if anything, but it's very useful to work at controlling it, while making sure that every key settles properly against the keybed. However, I wouldn't want to be without something heavier to practise on.

[nyiregyhazi]

...or perhaps you're not.

If you want to make a point, back it up with argumentative substance. If not, why even bother posting? If someone is even half-serious about developing their piano playing to the point where they feel comfortable playing on a heavy action, they need to practise on one. How is advising someone (who is struggling to cope with the heavier actions that all pianists must be able to face up to) to buy a piano with a light action going to help? If someone like yourself only plays for pleasure in their living room, they can make their life easy with a light action. However, if they want to play difficult repertoire in any form of public performance, they need to be equipped to deal with the pianos of the real world. Do you propose that he takes his own piano on tour with him like Horowitz? If you want to contribute something, contribute a reply that deals with these pertinent issues.

[keyboardclass]

If you want to make a point, back it up with argumentative substance.

Unlike you I'm not 'argumentative' for the sake of it.  The subject's totally unstudied - or do you have references?

[nyiregyhazi]

Unlike you I'm not 'argumentative' for the sake of it.  The subject's totally unstudied - or do you have references?

Try reading the post at the start of the thread- where the poster points out that he struggles to play a heavy action and practises on a light one. Also, I refer you to various posts of your own in which you have openly stated that you struggle to cope with the demands of a heavier action.

That's fine if you don't wish to perform in public on pianos outside of your control. However, anyone who might wish to do so needs to get to grips with what they will be faced with. It's not rocket science to say that a lack of experience with heavy actions does not produce a pianist who can cope with them. Trying to shy away from them does not produce the technique to cope with them. Advising a pianist who has stated that he cannot handle a stronger action to find a piano with a very light action is simply baffling.

[keyboardclass]

Also, I refer you to various posts of your own in which you have openly stated that you struggle to cope with the demands of a heavier action.

What garbage.  I choose to play on light actions (as did Chopin!).

[nyiregyhazi]

What garbage.  I choose to play on light actions (as did Chopin!).

So you turn down offers from concert halls that have regular concert Steinways? This is just plain silliness and I have no further interest in continuing such nonsense. The poster already knows that light actions are limiting (and that anyone who seriously wants to call themself a pianist must be able to play a regular concert grand). Seeing as he's clearly not going to duped by bad advice to limit himself further, if you want to argue the toss then feel free.

[keyboardclass]

(and that anyone who seriously wants to call themself a pianist must be able to play a regular concert grand).

Garbage again.  So, Horowitz wasn't a pianist!?

[nyiregyhazi]

Garbage again.  So, Horowitz wasn't a pianist!?

Purely for the sake of factual accuracy- Horowitz's last recording was made on a Steinway that his students described as having an unusually heavy action. So he certainly was a pianist. There's a difference between preference for lightness and inability to cope with anything else. Horowitz was not ducking out of anything. And how many young pianists do you know who can afford to bring their own piano to a venue?

[keyboardclass]

Purely for the sake of factual accuracy-

No purely for the sake of argument.  Just won't let it lie will you?
From PW

I played his piano at his New York apartment in 1967.  I wrote down CD 314505 but it could have been 503.  The piano had about half the normal downweight, I think in the low 30's (g). What impressed me most was the repetition speed. I still don't know how the tech managed both - and Howoritz wouldn't share that piece of information.

Anyway, it's about artistry not machismo.

[nyiregyhazi]

No purely for the sake of argument.  Just won't let it lie will you?
From PWAnyway, it's about artistry not machismo.

Ability to cope with a standard action is not machismo. It's the necessary precursor to the ability to casually play regular everyday concert grands with enough control to achieve artistry. There are a few sources regarding the heavy action of his last piano- including Dubal's book. One of the students mentions having heard about Horowitz's magic piano but being shocked to find that the instrument was extremely heavy in touch- not compared to your average piano but to other concert grands. He says he had an extremely hard time getting around it. I later read elsewhere that Horowitz had acquired a new piano at this time and liked the sound, despite a very heavy action- explaining why the student encountered a heavy action. It might have been a quote from Mohr, perhaps. Come to think of it, I believe I also recall reading that the stand-in pianist for filming rehearsals of the 1968 concert encountered a heavy action.

[keyboardclass]

There are a few sources regarding the heavy action of his last piano-

Well, if Horowitz waited his rather lengthy lifetime to obtain a heavier action piano I think the OP shouldn't, as yet, have any worries.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Someone asked me how long I have been studying?

I've been playing the SAME light weighted piano for seven years.  I wanna to go college for music but it would suck if for a live audition, (if I get invited) That I wouldn't be able to play half a page of a Bach prelude and fugue.(exaggeration) Like I said before, I do czerny studies but it's kinda pointless if I can't play anything difficult 100% on a normal piano like how I can on mine.  I've never practiced on a normal piano consistenty before.

[keyboardclass]

You've played seven years on a keyboard?  Not good.  Whatever the action you need a piano.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It's weighted, but over the years, it's getting lighter and lighter.  And its sloop exhausting playing on a real one.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, if Horowitz waited his rather lengthy lifetime to obtain a heavier action piano I think the OP shouldn't, as yet, have any worries.

Do you have even the slightest interest in the topic, or in practising the ability to construct a very shallow and superficial argument to try to support an intrinsically unsupportable point? If you have evidence that Horowitz spent the whole of his student life playing light action pianos, then please present it. Perhaps you think that when he was doing the rounds in his early twenties and making such a huge impact, he was wheeling in his special light action piano, whenever he couldn't cope with the in house grand? If you seriously think that your premise stands up to scrutiny then think again.

Please stop making such ludicrously superficial and ill-thought out points for the sake of being argumentative. To be a serious pianist, you have to learn to cope with real-world pianos. To spend formative years stuck with a light action makes about as much sense as trying to prepare a romantic virtuoso on a Harpsichord. To be a pianist, you need to be up to playing any piano- which means getting used to heavier actions. Attempting to put a deceptive politically-styled "spin" on Horowitz's background will not change that fact.

[keyboardclass]

Perhaps you think that when he was doing the rounds in his early twenties and making such a huge impact, he was wheeling in his special light action piano, whenever he couldn't cope with the in house grand? If you seriously think that your premise stands up to scrutiny then think again.

Pure speculation on your part.  We know for most of his life Horowitz played on light pianos.  That he could could cope with an in house grand dispite prefering light actions is the point!

[thalbergmad]

I love it when you two start on each other.

Pure enjoyment.

Thal

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You guys are kinda getting a tad bit off topic...

[birba]

I love it when you two start on each other.

Pure enjoyment.

Thal

Not as much as the brilliant altercations between you and Alistair...

[outin]

Not as much as the brilliant altercations between you and Alistair...

I have to agree
But not knowing either of the two, I sometimes wonder if they are really serious or just playing us

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Guys, you don't have to worry, I completely disagree with keyboardclass.

Now that that's out of the way, can someone PLEASE tell me what I should do cause this is geting stupid and I'm getting really mad now 

[nyiregyhazi]

Pure speculation on your part.  We know for most of his life Horowitz played on light pianos.  That he could could cope with an in house grand dispite prefering light actions is the point!

No. The point is that he acquired these skills on regular concert grands, in the years in which he was learning. He did not acquire them from being brought up in his student years on rigged pianos or by cancelling concerts/playing sluggishly whenever he had to handle regular Steinway action.

Please stop this tedious argumentative trolling. Selective use of facts is a sorry way of trying to prove a point.  You know as well as I do that Horowitz did not spend his formative years ducking out of regular actions- meaning that the similarity of the situation to what you advise is literally nil. Spin is not going to hide the fact that this thread refers to formative years of development, whereas the Horowitz example refers to the preferences of a formed virtuoso.

[keyboardclass]

Jeez, the OP isn't interested.  You're only making him madder! 

[survivor23]

when I was growing up, I had a piano that did not respond that well.  Then, when I was in college and practicing on Steinway's, it seemed as though I could play pieces that I could not play before!

I have an upright that I purchased, and after our last move, the keys dont respond that well. I was considering buying an electric one, but after reading your post, I think I will stick to the real thing.

I guess its best to have all types so you can learn sensitivity, and how to adjust. In my case, when I would play at competitions, it worked in my favor having a cheapy piano at home.

I say, try to control what you can and do what you can do. Practicing on your teachers piano, and at home I think is an excellent idea. Keep talking to your parents and state your case.

Before I was able to buy a piano, I would practice on the nearby college campus. The doors were always open, and I got my pick of Steinways!!

[thalbergmad]

I do feel sorry for pianists who have to play a variety of different pianos

My piano is like my snooker cue in as much that I am so used to it, that to try something else would yeald horrific results.

This is the advantage of banjo. I can take that anywhere.

Thal

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I heard that the music director at my school is open about letting students practice their instruments at school.

So I'm gonna see if I can get two hours a day after school.

[keyboardkat]

It doesn't make any sense that practicing on a light action makes it possible to play better on a heavy action.   It's actually the opposite!!!

If you practice on a heavy piano, then when you get on a lighter one, you'll think you can play like crazy, because you have developed your hands.   If you practice on a piano with a heavy action, you will then be able to play on anything.   If you practice on a piano with a light action, then a heavy action will tire your hands and they will hurt.

Horowitz preferred a light action but remember that his technique was a bit unorthodox.
I'm not saying that an action should be overly heavy.   But if the keys go down when you blow on them, you will not be able to get a pianissimo.

[keyboardclass]

It all goes back to something CPE Bach said of clavichord players versus harpsichordists.  He said the former, a very light touch, would always be able to play the latter, a heavy touch, well but never the reverse.

[nyiregyhazi]

It all goes back to something CPE Bach said of clavichord players versus harpsichordists.  He said the former, a very light touch, would always be able to play the latter, a heavy touch, well but never the reverse.

That might seem vaguely relevant, were it not for the very first post in this thread- which highlights the common problem of pianists who are fine on light actions but cannot cope with heavier ones.

Would you mind quoting him, by the way? I'm curious as to whether this is more selective spin or an accurate depiction of his words. Did he actually specify that he was referring to coping with the action weight, or was he referring to the evident fact that those who practise on an instrument with dynamic variety will be more inclined to cope (compared to those who practise on an instrument with very little, trying to play on one that has room for dynamic sensitivity)?

EDIT- as I suspected, the true quote is thus:

"It is said that clavichordists make excellent harpsichordists, but not vice versa."

I find it bewildering that anybody would make such a deceptive inference from this and present it as if directly contained in the quote. Such transparently dishonest portrayal of his words simply baffles me. You could at least have the decency to put your insertions in brackets. But of course, that would have made it abundantly clear that he had not spoken in anything like the context you wished to portray via smoke and mirrors...

[keyboardclass]

Would you mind quoting him, by the way?

Find your own quote.  Through the years I've grown tired of educating you -  only to receive nothing but crazy 'I am the source!' in return.

[nyiregyhazi]

Find your own quote.  Through the years I've grown tired of educating you -  only to receive nothing but crazy 'I am the source!' in return.

I found it. See my edit about your dishonest paraphrasing.

[keyboardclass]

I found it. See my edit about your dishonest paraphrasing.

Dishonest!?  Only to brainless nitpickers!  CPE's observation is admirably applicable.

[nyiregyhazi]

Dishonest!?  Only to brainless nitpickers!  CPE's observation is admirably applicable.

CPE Bach's observation is perfectly admirable- seeing as it logically appears to refer to the fact that playing an extremely light-actioned instrument with little dynamic variety does not provide control over dynamics on another extremely light-actioned instrument. To speak of a harpischord as being "heavier" than a clavichord is about as relevant as the fact that a tiny feather is "heavier" than a speck of dust. What is not remotely "applicable" isthe  false meaning that you tried to tack- on to his actual words and then attribute directly to Bach himself.

If you want to reply with another schoolyard insult then fire away. I'm not going to debate any further with someone who cannot abide by the most basic principles of intellectual honesty. The way you twist facts is beyond reproach.

[keyboardclass]

Calling people dishonest, accusing them of trolling, that's just inflammatory - once again you're trashing someone's thread.  You just don't give a damn, do you?

[keyboardclass]

oops

[cmg]

I have two words for you contentious gentlemen:  "Die Bebung."

And "rach forever," would you just get a parttime job and/or a credit card and BUY a decent digital that will satisfy your needs??

Thank you.

[johnmar78]

Hey Mr. Racforever. Talikng about "weighted" keys on the piano. I have been doing this for my last 15 years. My experinment on yamaha c3 grand.
15 years ago, my finger was weak, when played on 9 foot grand. I later tried  a lots more in the piano shop and recital halls. I noticed the weight varies wthin 10-20% from piano to piano.

Theses days I have removed 18 g/38g of weight on each key as supposed to be" 0g "at "default settings by Yamaha. eg  "0"g is the relative figure to my initially added 38gs per key. I do not know what weight Yamaha has used.

My finger is much stronger over my 15 years trial, and this gives you more control and expression.

These days, I walked in any play shops can play any grand with an ease.

My conclusion is , a lighter key gives you more expression(in my case) but not too light. A heavier key gives your more FF, responsiveness, but less expression. It has to be balanced to a personal needs.
 Yes, get an upright, ask your parents do it for you and being a good soon at hom
Cheers

[rachmaninoff_forever]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Back when I was a freshman, I asked if I could use the schools piano but they said no for some stupid reason.

Then today I asked and I can stay after school every day for as long as I want!

However, I will admit, they don't have the best pianos, but it's infinitely better than mine at home.


Oh, and thanks for ruining my thread guys!

[cmg]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Back when I was a freshman, I asked if I could use the schools piano but they said no for some stupid reason.

Then today I asked and I can stay after school every day for as long as I want!

However, I will admit, they don't have the best pianos, but it's infinitely better than mine at home.


Oh, and thanks for ruining my thread guys!

This response is the ultimate in absurdity!  And this entire thread has been a pointless exercise destined to a pointless destination: the boy, the original poster, has learned he can practice on suitable pianos at school! Yet, in the end he has insulted all of you who have participated in trying to help him!  All hail the internet:  the last refuge, it appears, of complete idiots! 

[keyboardclass]

But surely posting is pointless considering the level of ignorance and rudeness combined on the net?  Absurd goes without saying - that's life.