AVANT GRAND N3 / WITH IVORY II ?

[tony20172]

I play the yamaha n3 and would like to hear from people who have tried ivory11 on the n3 and is it a better sound? and how to conect it all up could I run a long midi lead from computer room to music room is that ok and will the TRS still work if playing ivory ii through the speakers of n3

[ajspiano]

I'm not overly familiar with ivory - I've only heard the samples on their site.

How long a lead are you talking about? I've read that 20 ft is as far as you can go with a midi cable before latency will cause you playability problems..

As far as I know ivory is a resource hog too, so you'll need a beast of a PC. I presume you realize that though.

[tony20172]

Yes thanks for that /   I will keep it in mind to cut down the midi cable to the shortest possible lenth and I note  regards the hungry ivory program will keep you updated on results many thanks   tony

[lhorwinkle]

That's not true.
MIDI cables, long or short, produce absolutely NO latency at all. None.

[ajspiano]

That's not true.
MIDI cables, long or short, produce absolutely NO latency at all. None.

Indeed, further research seems to support this - though i only looked at another forum, not actual cable specification. One guy was arguing mathematically that you'd have to have 20km cable before you'd detect any latency..

I don't know if thats even close to the truth but I'm guessing my 20ft comment is well off.

[jimbo320]

Why the need for 20 ft.? 

[tony20172]

in reply to cable lenth well my piano is in my music room and my computer another room so when I switch every thing on to set up piano ivory yes I will have to go back and forth between the rooms but better than having every thing bunched up together  wires etc its better just to have one around the edge of room out of sight hoper my computer will manage this ivory program a bit concerned as to all the problems I am not looking forward to is it worth it all The Aveant grand n3 is a good sound on its own still waiting ti here if anybody has this set up system 

[ajspiano]

Check out Pianoteq. It sounds good, and is not a resource hog. It's not sample based so only takes up 20mb and runs well on my old pc.

I actually think it sounds as good, if not better than ivory...  That's just me though ofcourse.

[tony20172]

yes thanks I think I will give it a try pianoteq it does not look to hungry do you think that it will preduce better sounds? than the n3 and what is my first step buying etc and conrcting any thoughts will be most welcome   tony

[lhorwinkle]

I'd skip Pianoteq. The sound is very artificial, not good at all.

Pianoteq is not expensive ... there's one version that under $100. But for $150 you can get Galaxy Steinway or Galaxy Vintage D. These sound MUCH better. Much much much much better.

They won't work well on a really old computer, but you definitely don't need the newest hot-box machine.

I run it on a 6-year-old PC ... 1.7 GHz Core Duo, 2 GB RAM, 80 GB/7200 RPM driver, Windows XP. That's slow compared to nearly anything available today, yet it runs just fine.

[tony20172]

thanks for the reply ,at this very moment of going to press ,so to speak, I am leaning towards ,syntholgy ivory2 for one reason it seems as though its got more to offer, Im sure that it  would keep me busy conecting and reconecting  the wires , and  ITS NOT THAT i DONT LIKE THE SOUND OF THE AVANT GRAND N3, but the grass allways looks greener on the other side well I might be disapointed  with the ivory 2 grands and Im sure its a lot of work with the conections not sure if it worth it \???oh and the TRS on the avant grand will it still work running it through ivory2 and then n3 internal speakers I have grown fond of the vibrating musical fingers and pedals

[lhorwinkle]

The disadvantages of Ivory 2 are:

1. The package costs $350. Yes, you get 3 or 4 different piano sounds for that price, but you'll have to decide whether you need that many.

2. You need an Ilok. That's a $40-$50 dongle that manages your right to use the software. You cannot run Ivory 2 without it. Lose the Ilok (or break) it and you must buy a new one.

Meanwhile, Galaxy Vintage D sounds very very good ... better than Ivory in my opinion. It costs only $150 and it does not require an Ilok.

[tony20172]

do you know of any links for galaxy you tube  etc to here it

[gvfarns]

Lots of good questions and answers in this thread.  To add a few points:

The latency caused by signal traveling down a cable is comparable to the speed of light going over some reasonable distance.  It can be enough to mess up some digital communication (e.g., long USB cables, apparently), but it is nowhere near what is required to cause audible latency, which is measured relative to the time it takes sound to travel reasonable distances.  Latency long enough to be felt and heard is caused by buffering, typically.  MIDI cables can be limited in length by impedance-type issues but they can go at least 50 feet with no problems.

The notion that Ivory and other sampled pianos require powerful computers is false.  This was once true to some degree but not any more.  Two things happened: computers got faster, and software pianos got smart streaming/buffering technology.  Any core 2 desktop and indeed laptop is more than enough to power any modern piano.  They store the first few seconds or so of all notes in RAM and then only read from disk if needed, which is not all that often .  PianoTeq requires a more powerful computer (though is less hard drive intensive) but computer power is not an issue there either. The limitation, if there is any, will be windows and the driver associated with your audio interface (poor buffering properties).  If you have a good ASIO driver or a mac, you will be fine with any reasonable computer.  I have a first generation core 2 duo underclocked and undervolted and it is more than a match for all software pianos I've used.

Regarding the question about TRS, I have a friend with an AvantGrand that tells me TRS does not work when using a software piano.  I don't know why or if he has explored all the possibilities.  So you might figure out a better way.

Regarding Ivory and Galaxy, I played Ivory 1 and Galaxy 2, and currently use Vintage D.  Vintage D is my favorite but the main Galaxy Steinway is also very good.  Ivory 1 can't compete but I understand Ivory 2 is a big improvement and compares favorably to Galaxy if you can stomach the price.  By the way you can get the Galaxy pianos individually in download version if you want.  The Galaxy people are not real good at advertizing in my experience.  The videos on the galaxy website give you a good idea of the capabilities and they have a couple of good video demos.  Their audio clips are much less impressive, considering how good their pianos are.    Here's a video on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgl1C_drg4M

It has both Galaxy Steinways.  Vintage D is a bit more intimate than this song and player require, so in some ways this example favors the main Steinway.

Here's another video comparing a bunch of sampled pianos.  Quite interesting, though the use of the MIDI file prevents us finding out how good the playability features of each piano are (more on this in a minute).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmlcvM5IPdo

I talked with the author and asked if he could get just one piano he tested, which would it be.  He said Vintage D.

I'll add my vote against PianoTeq as well.  There is a company that knows how to advertize and distribute it's product.  And it has a wonderfully designed interface.  Everything is great about it except one thing: the sound.  It is never great and can be downright unpleasant, quite a step down from the native AG sounds.  There's a lot of misinformation spread by PianoTeq users about sampled pianos (many PT users have no experience with sampled pianos and therefore do not know what they are missing), suggesting that sampled pianos have playability issues or are lifeless in some way.   A few minutes playing one product and then the other will easily show that PianoTeq is completely dominated by any modern sampled piano.  To be fair, there are many sampled pianos and only a few have the necessary features to be really playable (partial pedal, sympathetic resonance, release samples, repedalling, etc.).  Basically Galaxy, Ivory, and Garritan qualify as good, modern sampled pianos.  Maybe Imperfect Samples.  Early marketing by PianoTeq attacked the playability of early sampled pianos, and many sampled pianos do have a problem there, but it's not an issue with the current generation.

A point about the AvantGrand to be aware of: if you intend to use the line-in features and play a software piano through the onboard speakers you may have an issue with the noise gate that cuts off the sound when it gets quiet.  It's an unfortunate Yamaha design decision that has disappointed many who would like to use software pianos.  Basically if you hit a note and let it decay all the way, near the end it will flutter in and out as the volume goes below and above the noise gate threshold. 

To answer your main question: I expect that Ivory II or Galaxy would be a significant step up in realism, detail, and beauty over the onboard piano sounds of the AvantGrand.  However, you would best appreciate it through nice speakers or headphones.  In some ways the AG is more than the sum of its parts as the speakers and samples are designed for each other, so playing a software piano through them may not be as much of an improvement as expected.  Through headphones the story would be different and Ivory would be a very clear winner.

I have not played Ivory 2 unfortunately, but I have a good friend who has both Ivory 2 and Galaxy 2 (and an AvantGrand) and overall he thinks Ivory 2 has an edge over Galaxy 2.  Take that for what it's worth.  Since you bought an N3 the price difference between the two products may not be very important to you, so you might want to go with Ivory.

[ajspiano]

I like the sound of pianoteq.. but I have it set one specific way, and I dont much like the other options.

The touch/sound has been better than sampled pianos I've tried, but they were also older. And my PC is definitely not capable of running ivory, its too old. It can run pianoteq just fine though.

[gvfarns]

AJS, now might be a good time to think about an upgrade.  I'm seeing new computers more powerful than mine for $215 (free shipping, no tax) on pricewatch that will definitely have no issues.  That's like the price of a parking ticket (well...a bad one, like parking in a handicap zone).

Another $150 for Vintage D and I feel confident saying that you will have a smile on your face when you play, even if right now it seems that your current setup gets the job done well enough.

[ajspiano]

yeh, its not that straight forward though..

My version of Protools, which is also my asio hardware/software is also too old, so it only works on winxp.

If I up the computer, I'll have to up the recording gear too. It wont be only a few hundred, it'll be into the thousands. And it would be silly to have a recording machine and a machine for the piano.. i'd end up with 2 computers running in the same room..  I just have to wait a bit.

[gvfarns]

I do understand reluctance to upgrade.  I feel it myself too, often.

By way of clarification, the computers I was talking about all come with Windows XP.  I'm pretty confident you could move your protools and PianoTeq and everything else over without a problem.  No need to upgrade anything else in your setup.

For years I resisted the move to software pianos because I didn't want the hassle and risk of moving away from my onboard sounds, which just work, to software pianos that do not.  When I finally got sick of my onboard sounds and made the switch I felt really silly for having waited.  My investment was negligible because I just used an old spare computer.  I wish I had made the switch earlier.  It's only in the hope of giving others courage to make similar moves that I advocate as I do.  No need to languish in the dark ages when it isn't that hard to get to the frontier--computer power really shouldn't be a limiting factor in your musicianship in my opinion.  Not at current prices.

Of course, as Obiwan says, you must do what you feel is right.

[ajspiano]

I do understand reluctance to upgrade.  I feel it myself too, often.

As it would happen, a laptop that my gf was using for business has gotten fried somehow and we ended up buying an additional desktop ($340) PC this weekend. Has more than enough juice for galaxy ii according to the system requirements listed on their site. The 4GB ram, can be bumped up to 8 for only $25 too.

And, while protools does not work on the windows 7 OS, the hardware (mbox 2 pro) does. So the solid ASIO gear operates fine, I just cant use protools itself. Which is not a huge big deal right now.

Will have to look at some alternatives to pianoteq it would seem.

[ajspiano]

There's a lot of misinformation spread by PianoTeq users about sampled pianos (many PT users have no experience with sampled pianos and therefore do not know what they are missing), suggesting that sampled pianos have playability issues or are lifeless in some way

Having tested the galaxy ii Steinway this evening I have to say that any individual note sounds better than pianoteq. The instrument as a whole is downright awful though. I hate to be that misinformation spreading pianoteq user here..  maybe my settings are all wrong for the galaxy?

The galaxy sounds fine, but made want to hurl trying to coax something musical out of it.
Pianoteq is like playing a real piano in terms of touch.

Honestly your comments makes me wonder if you have tried pianoteq, and arent a sampled piano diehard spreading misinformation..

Still, like i said, maybe its just set really badly (velocity curve perhaps?).

[lhorwinkle]

Try the Galaxy Vintage D. It's much better.

[ajspiano]

Try the Galaxy Vintage D. It's much better.

Will do..  It will have to be in a completely different class to be worth while though. The steinway showed clear and painful differences in the velocity layers making the touch of the instrument incredibly troublesome. I'm inclined to think its bad settings not a bad product.

[gvfarns]

I have indeed used PianoTeq.  After doing my initial internet research I had the impression that PT was the way to go.  Used it for a few months and I was all into the forums and stuff.   Did a lot of research and discussion on the topic.  Tried lots of tweaks.  Unfortunately I never found a sound that satisfied.  In fact, over time the artificiality began to really grate on me.  Ultimately I decided the talk of software pianos being good was bunk and went back to my onboard sounds, which are also by no means satisfactory.

Later I tried Galaxy and realized great piano sounds are actually possible from a digital.  I tried Vintage D and it was noticeably better even than the main Steinway piano.  In particular it (the piano from which it was sampled) has a greater range of color and a warmer, more intimate character.  Still I don't know that I would say it's a whole different class than the main Galaxy Steinway.

As a rule it's a challenge to hear layer boundaries even in onboard sounds, which usually feature 3 or 4 layers.  In some cases they can't be detected even with software (when layer blending is used, for example).   Everyone's ears are different, of course, but I personally find it implausible that the layer transitions in Galaxy would be sufficiently audible that they would be offensive.  Vintage D has 13 layers and I have difficulty imagining anyone detecting a layer transition, especially in normal play.  Not sure how many layers are in Galaxy Steinway, but Ivory has 18 (their new Vintage American Steinway has 20).  I'm not denying that it could happen, but the person would have to have much, much better ears and speakers than I do.  If that's the case, why is the timbre of PT not a problem? 

Perhaps instead of referring to the layer transitions you meant that the volume/tone did not scale appropriately with your finger velocity (i.e., the velocity curve is janked up)?  That's quite fixable as I'm sure you know you know.  What controller did you use in your experiment?  Another possibility: some of the sound settings were messed up.  There's a tone menu where people like to boost brilliance or warmth or bass volume, and a compressor to boot.  In my experience (mostly with Vintage D) almost any change of settings is likely to make the piano worse.  Better to leave it as it was recorded and constructed.

I don't mean to be too confrontational about it.  There's no reason two people can't play two products and come to completely contradictory conclusions about them.  My experience just doesn't leave a lot of room to imagine someone playing Galaxy and PT and preferring the latter.  Yet you seem to be that person--the first such I have talked to out of a statistically significant sample--and it just raises lots of questions in my mind.  I do not mean to be personal about it at all.

In the PianoTeq world there's a lot of emphasis on tweaking the settings, velocity curves, etc. to get what you want.  In fact there are PT users who say there isn't really enough configurability in the play version to get a great sound.   It might be worth giving Galaxy, Vintage D, or Ivory a similar dedicated chance.  Use better headphones, start from the default settings, give the velocity curve some smooth tweaks.  That kind of thing.  Actually, sit at the same controller and switch back and forth between PT and a modern sampled software piano.  Sometimes the memory of something is better than the reality--I always look back fondly on the KRK RP8's and 10S I used to use, but I listened to some recently and they are not all that amazing.  They don't stand up well in an A/B test with better speakers.

By the way, I don't count it as misinformation if you try both and prefer something different than I do.  That's valid data.  The only people I object to are those that do not try a sampled piano before bagging on them--which is very easy to do because there are no good sampled piano demo versions.  The opposite case (someone who has tried sampled pianos and bags on PianoTeq without trying it) almost does not exist.  Anyway, you are on solid ground whatever your opinion.

Another thought: Imperfect samples makes a Fazioli piano with 127 sampled layers.  That is, there are no layer transitions whatsoever.  There are exactly as many possible timbres as PianoTeq has.  If your ears are exceptionally sensitive to layer transitions and you would like a more natural tone than PT provides, that might be an option.  As I understand it, though, Ivory and Galaxy could have far more layers but do not do so because layer transitions are not an audible problem in their product.  That is, I think it's fair to say that both are generally considered better pianos than the imperfect samples product.  Improvement in sampled pianos is pretty much in other directions (although there is a slow trend toward more layers--not sure where it will end).

A note to the original poster: whatever piano you use with an AvantGrand, whether it be sampled or modeled, you will probably need to tweak the velocity curve.  As I understand it the AG has a somewhat nonlinear response curve in their MIDI, with a lot of headroom.  That is, by default it takes a superhuman strike to approach the upper velocities.  My friend with an AG says he uses an S curve with the AG and Ivory, while he needs only use a straight line when using his Roland to drive software pianos.

[ajspiano]

apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread..

my PT set up is the "M" piano - with absolutely no alterations. I run the 'play' version anyway so can't alter it. My velocity curve is perfectly linear from 0-127. I use a player perspective sound, no reverb.

All the other options i strongly dislike. This option however I can sit and play for hours on end like I'm on a concert grand.

Headphones are fairly high end as it is, without going into the bat#$%^ insane studio ones. I spent AU$400 on these, they make a nice sound. When its out loud, its logitech 5500's which are hardly great studio monitors, but they do produce a fairly high quality sound.

I won't argue with you that the Galaxy's 'sound' was better. Its a long way in front. I just hated playing it because it was as if the instrument was not regulated. Its not that the difference between one velocity layer to the next was noticeable.. Rather it felt like I would get p tone when I played f, but not consistently.. it would swap and change, like one note in a phrase would have the wrong dynamic..  Thats what makes me think it was settings and the PC rather than that the program is sub standard.

It was fine for playing a pop song (all mf/f chords)..  it just failed me when I was trying to play something with a lot of subtlety. I also felt a bit like I was straining it with more difficult music, like the PC coped with chords on the beat, it did not however cope with chopin op10/12.

How long ago did you use pianoteq?  I hear the sound pre version 3 was pretty awful. I'm kind of hanging out for improved sound on all the instruments in version 4 which I should get the free upgrade for..

EDIT:
The deal for me is that playability comes before sound. - PT worked out of the box, i was sold the second i tried it because it plays like a piano, even if the sound isnt quite like having a real steinway.

comparitively to my controller (roland fantomX8) PT is more playable and sounds better.. galaxy would be sounds better/plays worse..

[lhorwinkle]

Perhaps your difficulty with Galaxy could be solved by adjusting the velocity curve?

I run Galaxy Vintage D under Kontakt 5.

I set the velocity curve to bend downward a bit, though it seems you might want to bend it upward a bit, considering the nature of the difficulty you're having.

I also tweak the velocity so that it reaches 127 with an input of around 105 ... because my Clavinova will not put out any velocity above that. (I don't know why, but it just won't.)

The sound of the Galaxy Vintage D is better than the Galaxy Steinway. That latter is a bit harsh. The Vintage D is smoother.

But both of them sound far better than Pianoteq. Every time I try the Pianoteq demo, I walk away. It just doesn't sound like a piano. It's a pure synth. Galaxy, on the other hand, sounds like a piano ... especially through headphones.

[ajspiano]

Did better last night.. 

Adjusted the DFO(?) so that a longer amount of each sample was loaded in to ram, which seemed so make a difference overall in the more complicated music. Also adjusted the velocity curve, which yielded some improvement, though not overly significant.

When playing repeated notes the sample layers are painful.. I can easily play with refined enough dynamics to trigger the same sample over and over and it sounds like a machine not a piano. This is ofcourse far less concerning in real musical situation. I also have big issues with about 1 octave worth of the higher range. Sounds dead. I think this is probably what the instrument sounded like in the studio but it annoys me.

The instrument as a whole still feels lifeless comparitively to pianoteq even with it functioning better. Its like I've got this great sound but I plainly know its a digital piano. With PT it doesnt sound quite as good but I can get lost in playing the piano, because its a piano, it just responds the right way.

The tone of the low end is pretty awesome with the galaxy..  enjoyed playing some blues with it.. just not anything classical.

^all personal opinion obviously..  am intrigued to try both the vintage D, and the vienna grand.

[gvfarns]

Hmmm.  I've actually heard someone mention the issue of repeated notes all sounding the same before. It's never come up in my playing, but perhaps it is something sampled piano makers need to address--just as they used to need to address partial pedal, then sympathetic resonance, then repedalling. 

I assume it is the same situation with a digital piano onboard sounds, is that right?  Makes me wonder if, for example, the V-Piano has the behavior you are seeking.

[ajspiano]

still havent tried the vintage D.

Have played the vienna grand - just as problematic.

Also tried alicia's keys. Sound is far superior to the galaxy pianos I feel (personal opinion) but my PC can not handle it. The sample is 17GB and I get never ending clicks and drop outs. Works better if I turn off re-pedalling but that causes problems obviously.. I also have a latency issue with it.

all of them give me this sense of notes that sound identical, I can tell I'm triggering the same samples.

I keep returning to pianoteq despite the weaker sound because it doesnt fail on playability, ever.

[barnardo]

I play the yamaha n3 and would like to hear from people who have tried ivory11 on the n3 and is it a better sound? and how to conect it all up could I run a long midi lead from computer room to music room is that ok and will the TRS still work if playing ivory ii through the speakers of n3

I use Ivory II Italian Grand with a Clavinova CLP440, and it is provides the best digital piano sound I have experienced. For classical music in particular you need copious polyphony, and assuming you set the best quality settings the Ivory II offers, (the most dynamic timbre layers, all note off samples, una corda samples, sympathetic resonance, plus key noise, pedal damper noise etc plus half pedalling..) then the samples need to be streamed very fast. If you use a standard fast hard drive you might find that it just doesn't deliver even with a SATA or FireWire 800 or USB3 interface, the drive cannot read fast enough to throughput all sounds you amass using sustain in music such as Ravel or Chopin. I didn't bother experimenting with RAID set-ups of drives, but took the advice of putting the sample library on an internal Solid State Drive. SSD. Even the cheap 128GB drive (£70) I bought could increase the polyphony by a factor of 10 for me, to above 400, which in the Ivory II method of layering non looping samples seems adequate for live classical piano. It sounds really gorgeous! If you record in LOGIC ( or equivalent Digital Audio Workstation) any computer will finally bounce / render polyphony up to 1000 in Ivory if you give it enough time to process, but playing live without dropouts absolutely requires an SSD drive in my experience. I can imagine in a music mix a one handed piano part would encounter few problems, but expression and pedalling demands huge polyphony of samples (far beyond the 88 "notes" of a piano! The Italian Grand II, which is a carefully sampled Fazioli 318, or the latest American Concert D (Glenn Gould's favourite Steinway) seem like excellent value apart from  the Ivory Grand Pianos Package which you don't need to get. The ivory II standalone resonance is very good, but I find Space Designer reverb in Logic Audio is superior and more flexible when using it with my Software. No apparent latency with a 3 year old MacBook Pro.
In summary I think a good laptop fitted with a second internal (SSD) drive coupled with a high quality sampled piano like Ivory II, has made this a compact and capable way of increasing the sound quality of your digital instrument, while keeping its playability intact. The recent Yamaha samples are so much better than before, but the Synthogy quality is on a different level entirely.