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Inventions Bach (Read 11636 times)

Offline faa2010

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Inventions Bach
« on: February 01, 2012, 03:46:16 AM »
Here is my record of Invention 1. Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Offline werq34ac

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 03:57:42 AM »
The rhythm is choppy. I strongly recommend metronome work.. Even though it is evil. Metronome never lies. But at the same time it's a heartless betch.
Ravel Jeux D'eau
Brahms 118/2
Liszt Concerto 1
Rachmaninoff/Kreisler Liebesleid

Offline quantum

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 04:54:03 AM »
I've listened to some of your other recordings as well.  You have a grasp of the notes.  The main point you need to work on is flow.  The following comments are not specific to this piece, and can be applied to your other recent post as well. 

As others have pointed out there are points in the music where you seem to have "gaps".  You may have the internal perception in your mind that the music is flowing nicely, however your physical execution gives a start-stop-start-stop feeling.  

Imagine graph paper.  Something like this would look odd:
| | | |         |  ||||  |  | ||||||||     |      |          ||           |   |

When you think of graph paper you would prefer there to be equally spaced lines in order that you may plot your graph on them:
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |

The push and pull of rubato can come later.  First you need a firm and equal footing on which to place your music.  Concentrate on looking forward at future events in the music, as opposed to the current note.  It is like driving, you don't look at the hood of your car, you look far in front of it.  

If there are places you have a tendency to hesitate on, practice the transition in isolation between those two points.  

Eg: 1 2 [hesitation] 3 4

practice doing this 2 -> 3.  
2 Moving to 3:
 2 3, 2 3, 2 3, 2 3.  
Always look forward to 3, do not dwell on 2.  



Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline werq34ac

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 05:19:33 AM »
Quote
The push and pull of rubato can come later.  First you need a firm and equal footing on which to place your music.  Concentrate on looking forward at future events in the music, as opposed to the current note.  It is like driving, you don't look at the hood of your car, you look far in front of it. 

Just a note, Bach should have almost no rubato. Most of the time you'll be playing metronome steady when playing Bach. Of course there's a little bit of wiggle room in CERTAIN spots but most certainly not all over the place.
Ravel Jeux D'eau
Brahms 118/2
Liszt Concerto 1
Rachmaninoff/Kreisler Liebesleid

Offline quantum

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 06:04:29 AM »
Just a note, Bach should have almost no rubato. Most of the time you'll be playing metronome steady when playing Bach. Of course there's a little bit of wiggle room in CERTAIN spots but most certainly not all over the place.

It was made as a general comment to faa2010's query regarding choppiness in several threads.  

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=44837.0
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=42085.0
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41960.0

Nonetheless, I am not a purist and do not profess the school that Bach must be played to ultra specific mannerisms in order to be considered a valid performance.
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline faa2010

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 06:43:28 PM »
Thanks for your comments.  You are right quantum, there are sometimes when I feel those "gaps" in my playing.  I have tried with the metronome in order to get the rhythm, but is very uncomfortable and I can't follow it although I want to do it.

I have tried to find what are the causes of those gaps. The gaps are irregular because they don't appear in a specific part. For example, the first time I play, a gap can appear before finishing the 4 bar, if I play it for a second time, I can play continually the 4 bar, but then the gap appears either the next bar or later.

I hope to add a video so you can check my playing.  However, I feel that it's not the mechanical part that is failing.

Again thanks for your comments.

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 07:45:34 PM »
The rhythm is choppy. I strongly recommend metronome work.. Even though it is evil. Metronome never lies. But at the same time it's a heartless betch.

I agree 100% with this comment. I would also add that for now the goal should just be play evenly , all the way through each SECTION at whatever tempo is need to accomplish this. Dont try playing all the way through yet.  i also noticed the piece seemed to have more issues as you went further and further which shows you should practice the last sections for now.  Try to practice the last sections as many times as the first sections.  Everything should be practiced evenly.

Offline quantum

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #7 on: February 01, 2012, 08:57:08 PM »
faa2010, have you tried practicing a piece with the focus on flow as opposed to note accuracy?  You may wish to practice this technique with music that does not pose too much of a technical challenge.  This invention is RCM grade 7, so you may wish to do this exercise with something like an RCM grade 3 piece. 

The objective is that flow of music takes priority over all other aspects.  You can may as many omissions, mistakes and flubs as you need, but the focus must be to maintain the flow of music.  Do not stop or pause to contemplate a mistake, you must keep going.  Do not pause to work out a difficult passage, you must keep the flow moving. 

You can also practice this priority of flow exercise while isolating small sections of music.  Say you want to practice bars 16-24.  In order to preserve flow you would not stop between the end of 24 and the beginning of 16.  You continuously loop the passage, even if you get weird harmonies or cut of phrases - again the focus is flow.  Moving on from that, you can practice jumping from random parts of the piece without interrupting flow.  You could do Bars: 1-8, 17-19, 14-16, 32-48, 1-8, 32-48, etc.  without stopping. 


You may want to consider playing duets or ensemble music with other musicians.  When playing with others it becomes very obvious that you all must keep a uniform pace and progression through the music.  It is also much more humane and fun than practicing with metronome. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline faa2010

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 06:17:16 PM »
Thanks you all for your apportations.  I am also thinking in slowing the tempo and working with hands separated as well as sight read the piano sheet.  It will be very difficult to slow down and re-read, but I'll do my best.

Offline faa2010

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 03:14:43 AM »
Here is my last record. Please enjoy it and suggestions and advice are always welcome.

Offline gore234

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 08:43:55 AM »
Your latest record sounds better but you still need to work on it. I would practice one hand at a time and memorize each hand, then practice each measure with both hands at the same time.  Practice the 32nd note trils with the 16 notes underneath slowly to get the feel of them better.  Make sure it flows smoothly.

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 08:40:30 PM »
It sounds best in the beginning, and it shows that you will be able to play it well with more practice. Whatever you have done to acquire a better flow in the first part, apply those same practice techniques to the rest of the piece. Don't play from beginning to end each time.

What I noticed is that when the hands are taking turns playing separately, they are smooth and flowing on their own. But, there is a pause as the hands switch. There should be continuous sound from one hand to the next. Try singing the notes while clapping your hands and counting. The clapping and counting should remain steady without pauses. Play it so someone who doesn't know the difference would not know you've switched hands.

Offline werq34ac

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 09:58:00 PM »
I would take time to memorize the entire thing. I think the lack of flow (it's a bit better but it's still very uneven) is because you aren't 100% sure of the notes yet. Memorization will make sure you actually know the notes.

And METRONOME METRONOME METRONOME. It's evil but you gotta stick with it. It's already a bit better.
Ravel Jeux D'eau
Brahms 118/2
Liszt Concerto 1
Rachmaninoff/Kreisler Liebesleid

Offline faa2010

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 04:13:44 AM »
I would take time to memorize the entire thing. I think the lack of flow (it's a bit better but it's still very uneven) is because you aren't 100% sure of the notes yet. Memorization will make sure you actually know the notes.

And METRONOME METRONOME METRONOME. It's evil but you gotta stick with it. It's already a bit better.

Ok, after a while here is my update while I was using metronome. I put it in a speed so I could play it slow.  As everyone knows, comments and suggestions are welcomed. BTW, excuse me for the final part.

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Inventions Bach
«Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 06:41:28 PM »
this is starting to come together, keep working out the smoothness of the lines.  also really listen for detailed beginnings and endings to your slurs both note to note if only single tone to single toned slur and for longer passages, usually you want to have a bit more emphasis on the beginning of the slur and a little dying away on the last note think, if quarter note to quarter note, TEEEE-dah, also analyze where you are harmonically and identify those non chord tones and juicy chords, that's your emotional tension so bring those out and be mindful of your resolutions. 

overall much more defined phrasing and bigger contrasts in your dynamics ,but.yes this is better.