Licentiate Program

[thorn]

There have been quite a few of these threads about recently, so to anyone getting annoyed with them- I sincerely apologise.

I would be really grateful of thoughts on my diploma program. It's in early stages at the moment, so not too much work has been invested in anything that may need to be changed. I think it's more sensible to ask advice at this stage!

Bach- Prelude and Fugue in Eb minor (WTK 1)
Chopin- Scherzo op.31 in Bb minor
Debussy- Images 2e série (complete)
Rodgers/Hough- The Carousel Waltz

I really don't want to include a Classical Sonata, having learned one for every year of my music degree, so now I've graduated, I'm temporarily sick of the things. However, any non-"you must include something Classical" views would be much appreciated.

[thorn]

I'm sorry, perhaps if I had included "what is your favourite, least favourite, best, worst "insert superlative here*" in the title, I would have more chance of a response.

What has happened to these forums o.O

[megadodd]

Do you want thoughts on your programme?
It looks good.

[commissiona]

Well, heck, why don't you thow in one of your transcriptions, like that Ravel you're working on? 

That seems like it would be the perfect thing to add to your diploma program as I'm sure not many people do that.   Of course, I may be whistling dixie here as I've only gone as far as a minor in music, but would something like that be appropriate?

[thorn]

The Ravel is probably too difficult for this level- even though I'm the one who transcribed it, I found the study of how to perform it equally as difficult as when I studied Gaspard.

However, the Debussy would probably work... I do really like the Images I am working on though... I will have to give it a think.

I'm worried that perhaps the Chopin is too popular and will involve too many preconceptions of how it should be performed? It's one of the pieces Liszt banned from his masterclasses for being overplayed.

[megadodd]

It's a great piece nonetheless, the Chopin.
I would deffinitely include it, if you feel you play it well..?

I have never taken an exam, we don't have it in my country. But in auditions, the jury wants to know you can play piano, not what pieces you choose? I might be wrong.

[thorn]

Yes, I feel it suits me and I can do it justice. It's the easiest piece on my program by far.

In auditions, you are completely correct they want to know you can play. However in these exams, they specifically say that they will look at the programme itself and how it has been put together to give a range of different styles and techniques.

[symphonicdance]

Sorry for being naive.  Is yours Royal Conservatory of Music? Or another institute?

[thorn]

I'm guessing Royal Conservatory of Music is a US institute as I've never heard of it...

I'm debating between two of the UK diplomas, the LRSM and the LTCL:

The LRSM is a broader assessment involving sight reading and viva, where LTCL is just recital and programme notes.
I *think* the LTCL is the less expensive diploma.
The ABRSM (exam board of LRSM) are the most anally retentive examining body in the UK (likely the world, but I don't know enough about international boards to comment).

Those are my few in number yet important thoughts on the two. I can use my programme for either though, so I literally don't have to decide which to choose until the point of entry.

[symphonicdance]

Actually RCM is a Canadian one.  

I have done LTCL, but I'd second your thoughts that it's less challenging than LRSM.  I am aiming for FTCL as my next personal goal (need some luck there, haha).

Your proposed programme seems exciting.  However, I suspect that you would need prior approval of ABRSM because your choice of The Carousel Waltz by Rodgers/Hough does not appear on its syllabus.  You may also want to double check with Trinity to confirm whether "any of the Images" does allow the entire Bk 2.  

Also, please forgive my limited music knowledge.  I haven't encountered The Carousel Waltz before.  I'm not sure how long (time duration) it is.  Watch out for the playing time requirement for Trinity (and ABRSM, too).  Bach's P&F in E flat minor WTC Bk 1 (around 9-10 min) + Chopin's Scherzo #2 (around 9-10 min) + Debussy's Images Bk 2 (around 12-13 min) = around 31-32 min
So, I suppose your playing time of the Carousel Waltz won't be less than 7 min and longer than 10 min, right?

In terms of "overplay", the examiner probably would have good understanding on and have heard any of the Bach's WTC, Chopin's scherzos and Debussys' Images very very very often.  So, I would not take this as my #1 concern.  If you are comfortable with Chopin's scherzo #2, why not?!

Though the exam guidelines do not suggest it being mandatory, I always wonder whether there is a hidden preference for the examiner to see if a candidate can well manage a sonata (irrespective of its period)...

Just a second thought.  Given that you have already got a bachelor degree in music, why not challenge FTCL/FRSM instead?

Good luck!

[thorn]

Thank you for the detailed response, lots of things to think of.

I think the performance standard of both LTCL/LRSM are equal. The thing that makes LRSM more challenging is the supporting tests. Although in either you should aim for the best you can possibly give, I've always had the impression that Trinity are slightly more forgiving of slips at this level than the ABRSM. But that is a totally subjective comment that shouldn't be given too much weight in the decision.

You make a good point with approval. Although the LRSM syllabus says prior approval is not needed for own choice items, I'd still rather not be penalised if they thought The Carousel Waltz wasn't on par with the rest of the syllabus. LRSM specifically says "one, two or three of the 6 Images", LTCL does need clarification I think. They are the item on my program that I refuse to budge on, so if LTCL only allow one, then that's my decision made!

The difference in playing time between the two exams is miniscule. Trinity want 37-43 mins, ABRSM want 40 mins plus/minus 10% which works out 36-44 mins. The Carousel Waltz is about 6 mins and my Images take around 14-15 mins as I allow the first two pieces a bit more space than most pianists. My hands-down favourite Debussy interpreter, Noriko Ogawa, plays them in 15'30. So I'm near enough smack on 40 min total.

There is a performance of The Carousel Waltz on youtube, but it's absolutely awful in my opinion. Because you have been so kind and helpful, I am happy to share with you Hough himself playing it if you're interested!

I agree, the examiners will have good understanding of the majority of the pieces on the syllabus so it's probably not important.

One strength of LRSM is that it says "aim to present a balanced programme that includes a contrast of repertoire from at least two distinct musical eras". I hold my hands up and admit that I am not comfortable playing Baroque and Classical repertoire. Not a matter of taste, just the knowledge that listeners are far more judgemental when listening to music from that period. Would I theoretically be able to build a program of Romantic and 20th Century music for LRSM if it was contrasting enough?

I have wondered the same thing re sonatas, but my take on it is that although it may be a preference, surely it wouldn't altogether put them off a well performed recital?

I could do FTCL with a bachelor degree, but not FRSM. I don't think I am anywhere near such a level of performance at the moment. I am considering applying for a performance masters after passing this diploma using the same pieces, which will be the time and place to begin work on such high level repertoire.

[starstruck5]

My only reservation about your programme is that the keys of the first two pieces are very close.  Perhaps the  Prelude and Fugue number 11 might be a better choice from the Second Book -Or even the Bach/Busoni Chaconne -if indeed it is on the list of possible choices. 

Obviously tempo and key play a big part in contrasting works.

[symphonicdance]

I see.  I see.  You have indeed given good  thoughts yourself.  Grateful if you can share with me the Hough performance.  

BTW, you don't need to play in "period" order.   So, if you share the concern of starstruck5, and you don't want to change the Bach and Chopin pieces, then you just don't play them consecutively.  For insrance, my LT program was:
Mozart Rondo in A minor K511
Prokofiev Two pieces from Romeo & Juliet
Bach P&F in Eb minor WTC Bk 1
Ravel Sonatine

I must admit that mine wasn't a technically challenging one, but not bad for a self-learning amateur right?! 

[thorn]

I see your point starstruck5. I may change the order rather than the pieces themselves, but I will think about it. The P+F nr 11 bk 2 is set at the level below, so would be regarded as "too easy", and the Bach/Busoni Chaconne is set at the level above!

I probably overlooked the keys as I was originally playing the Chopin Scherzo 3, but decided that for me personally there were too many potential crashing points.

symphonic dance, you taught yourself to get through LTCL? That's pretty impressive! I don't know the Mozart so can't comment, but I wouldn't call the others easy- the Ravel in particular (and Prokofiev depending which two pieces you did) is quite difficult. I think the only reason the ABRSM set this at the level below licentiate is because the 2nd movement has appeared on grade 8 lists before. The 3rd movement in particular is just as technically challenging as anything else on the LTCL/LRSM syllabus.

[thorn]

I have listened to/played through the Mozart Rondo and am thinking of using it instead of the Bach. This would solve the key problem and would also mean less of a time gap between items. Finally, it would mean I am doing something Classical even if not a Sonata. So it's killing a lot of birds with one stone.

The Carousel Waltz is actually quite tricky considering it would the the light/non-serious item on the program. I think it is too difficult for me to pull off at an acceptable standard for success at this level. Which leave the problem of replacing it. I have no idea what to use instead and would greatly welcome suggestions.

[symphonicdance]

Thank you very much for your overrated comments.  I did have some piano training before, but my teachers (esp. those in my childhood ) weren't very good and couldn't motivate and inspire me.  It's a pity that they couldn't enable me having a foundation as solid as Alps.

Good that you feel like the Mozart's Rondo in A minor would suit your programme.  In my case, if I could re-choose, probably I'd pick Schubert's Impromptu in B flat instead, because I don't think I am a good Mozart player in any event.

Amongst the ten Romeo & Juliet pieces, I picked The Mongtagues and Capulets (I enjoyed the dynamics and contrasts of it) and Romeo and Juliet before Parting (at the request of my wife as she liked the melodies).

Thanks for your message & the files.  The Carousel Waltz is a great piece.  I don't think it won't fit into your revised programme as yours have already got quite a good balance: classical / romantic / impressionist / transcribed show piece (?).  Perhaps, the most important thing is whether or not you feel comfortable and confident with it.  Having said that, it's good to be open-minded for suggestions.

[thorn]

I love all of the Romeo and Juliet pieces (though if I was to use Prokofiev, I'd go for the Toccata myself).

I have decided to substitute The Carousel Waltz because it's too risky. Stephen Hough, being the great pianist he is, arranged this piece to be ridiculously difficult. When it comes to show pieces, I am better with the more... brittle? textures than the overblown ones. Perfect example is in the Liszt Transcendentals, I am quite comfortable with Feux Follets (not that I can play it to performance standard), but doubt I will ever be able to play Mazeppa.

That considered, I am playing Dai Fujikura's Study "Frozen Heat" as the modern piece. It is 6 minutes long so replaces it nicely, and I would describe it as 'video game music' meets 'Prokofiev Toccata if Ligeti had written it'. Listen and see what I mean

(starts at 1:28).

Finally, Mozart- I find the majority of his music really boring and feel unmotivated to try learning it. Some pieces, like the Rondo, grab me though. It's strange that in any examination where I have played Mozart, that has been the piece/item that has been marked the highest- even higher than any 20th century stuff which is my preferred period. I suppose all things come with a catch: I can play Mozart, but don't much care for him!

[squarevince]

I agree that the Carousel Waltz is pretty tough.  So is his transcription of My Favorite Things, which I'm determined to learn anyway.

In any case, you might also want to check out Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso, which even though it's technically early Romantic, sounds & is pretty classical in structure.

Another fun, short piece that is pretty easy for LTCL is the Bartok Allegro Barbaro.

[symphonicdance]

It's always wise to play comfortable and "safe", unless someone is really ambitious for top score in return for prize/scholarship.

Interesting piece "Frozen Heart".  A gentle reminder is that you'd need to submit the whole programme to Trinity for approval as this piece is not on the syllabus.  One thing I forgot is whether a candidate ought to use the approved programme for exam or he/she can revise and change the programme back to an all-pieces-in-the-syllabus one without notice/approval. 

And just to play safe.  Perhaps you can re-look at / practise in parallel another 4-6 minute "in-the-syllabus" piece, e.g. Bartok's Allegro Barbaro, Prokofiev's Toccata, Barber's Nocturne, Say's Paganini Variations, Takemitsu's Rain Tree Sketch, etc. till you receive the approval (which might take up to 6 weeks but usually within 2 weeks as someone told me).

Good luck!

[thorn]

squarevince: Agreed that My Favourite Things is also tough. The latter two from 'The King and I' are easier than the first two. For my case, I doubt they would as such be accepted on my program. I don't get on with Mendelssohn, he bores me. But I shall check out Allegro Barbaro, thanks!

symphonicdance: I know it would need approval =] Thank you for the other suggestions. I know the Prokofiev and the Takemitsu, but I will look at the others. I've heard that whilst being really good/quick with getting results back to people, Trinity are awful when it comes to program approval. Just to play safe, I think I will email them now. Although like I said, whether or not I can do all three Images is the main question; if I can't and end up going for LRSM then I don't need approval.

[symphonicdance]

Here, in this part of the world, Hong Kong, Trinity's delivery of result is at least 3 months from the exam   Not sure if it's true or not though, I heard that starting from 2012, candidate should use an online submission for programme approval, and the approval process gets faster.  Good luck!