Yamaha's Disklavier- making pianists obsolete

[allchopin]

I have a Yamaha upright disklavier piano (basically a sophisticated, electronic player piano) at my disposal, and today I went to the E-competition website where all the competitor's pieces were played and posted.  I saved them to my floppy disk and plugged it into the Yamaha and I heard practically firsthand each artist playing everything from Chopin to Rzewsky... amazing!!
It's almost a scary thought that these machines could be completely replacing pianists in a few years.

[DarkWind]

There's nothing like the excitement of watching a pianist's fingers fly around everywhere.

[donjuan]

allchopin, do you really think people will want to pay for tickets to see some high-tech MIDI play?  cmon, Music is human, and because you cannot get robots to sound human, you will never get the music to sound human, so long as some player piano is doing it.  
psh- "replacing pianists"!!
donjuan

[Axtremus]

allchopin, do you really think people will want to pay for tickets to see some high-tech MIDI play?  cmon, Music is human, and because you cannot get robots to sound human, you will never get the music to sound human, so long as some player piano is doing it.  
psh- "replacing pianists"!!
donjuan

People won't pay ticket to go "see" some electro-mechanical MIDI contraption play an instrument (I know I won't), but people do pay to buy MIDI programs that they plug into the Disklavier or PianoDisc systems -- a little bit like buying music CD to listen to music, but the Disklavier/PianoDisc titles are quite a bit more expensive than music CD titles. Heck, people even pay for CD's that contain recordings of music played via some electro-mechanical Piano-Roll type reproducing piano.

I recommend Rachmaninoff's piano rolls recorded at a Bösendorfer 280 -- audio recording technology in Rachmaninoff's time was far from what we have now, so it's hard to get a Rachmaninoff "life" recording with good audio from that era. However, Rachmaninoff played on player pianos and recorded his playing onto a piano rolls as well. Piano Rolls are like MIDI, it does not record sound but it records keystroked and pedalling. So what people have done is to use those piano rolls, convert that into some digital form (not sure if it's MIDI), then recreate Rachmaninoff's playing on a reproducing piano (basically a player piano). They did this on a Bösendorfer 280 and recorded the playing onto music CD (using modern day audio recording technology) and that's available for sale. So now you have people paying for music CD's recorded from a player piano.

[allchopin]

allchopin, do you really think people will want to pay for tickets to see some high-tech MIDI play?

Well, considering people are willing to cough up money for tickets to a Maksim concert (sorry to bring it up again) there's no telling.

cmon, Music is human, and because you cannot get robots to sound human, you will never get the music to sound human, so long as some player piano is doing it.  
psh- "replacing pianists"!!

No, that is the point of this thread... the 'robot' (not really a robot) IS sounding human.. almost exactly, because, well, essentially it IS the human playing it.

However, Rachmaninoff played on player pianos and recorded his playing onto a piano rolls as well. Piano Rolls are like MIDI, it does not record sound but it records keystroked and pedalling. So what people have done is to use those piano rolls, convert that into some digital form (not sure if it's MIDI), then recreate Rachmaninoff's playing on a reproducing piano (basically a player piano).

This is incredible.. you know, I was actually wondering this the other day.  We should get all the living greats today (not the dead ones though) to record onto such a device and basically be able to save them for all time, but I guess this process has already been undertaken.  Where could one find these CD's, and how would you know that they are the player piano recordings and not a scratchy one of himself?

[xvimbi]

There are certain aspects to this technology that are great, and there are of course limitations. As usual, it is about being realistic about it and not expecting too much.

"Normal" recordings are of course absolutely accepted. There are only a few who still reject this technology and categorically only go to concerts. It is easy to hear Rachmaninoff himself play on CD. MIDI is just a different type of recording. When attached to a real instrument, you can actually see the keys pressed exactly as Rachmaninoff pressed them when he recorded the piece. You just don't see his fingers. In that respect, the Disklavier is a step closer to the "real thing".

However, MIDI is independent of the instrument, and this is where its limitations are. No decent pianist would play a piece the same way on two different instruments or in two different concert halls. What sounds great in Carnegie Hall played on a Steinway D might sound horrible in a living room played on a Young Chang.

So, don't expect MIDI and Disklavier to replace "real" performances and recordings. Use it for what it's good for, e.g. as practice and educational tools. Generally messing around with it can be a lot of fun, but don't expect anything serious.

[jr11]

I first saw a "Piano Disc" brand grand piano about 10 years ago. It was placed in the foyer of a resort where people were continually paraded through time share sales. It looked impressive all right, and we actually bought a membership at the place (which has since tripled in value  ). It didn't take long for the novelty to wear off that this fancy piano was really just a big cumbersome stereo. The piano pieces, though impressive to watch and hear, were always exactly the same.

After a couple years the piano was moved out to of the foyer to a lounge, then into a little-used hallway. Though I never again used the disc system, I was ecstatic that I could practice on vacation! Alas, last year when I returned, the piano was gone... apparently it was obstructing a fire exit, so they disposed of it.

So, anyone want to buy a time share?  :-/

[allchopin]

No decent pianist would play a piece the same way on two different instruments or in two different concert halls. What sounds great in Carnegie Hall played on a Steinway D might sound horrible in a living room played on a Young Chang.

This is true - you could make a CD of just a Carnegie Hall version!  These could also be edited slightly to make them more compatible with different situations (eg, turn down the volume, put the disklavier on a brighter piano, etc).  But you can pretty much never go wrong with just a universal, simple, studio recording.

JR11:
What is a time share?

[Axtremus]

[About Rachmaninoff recorded piano rolls ...]

This is incredible.. you know, I was actually wondering this the other day.  We should get all the living greats today (not the dead ones though) to record onto such a device and basically be able to save them for all time, but I guess this process has already been undertaken.  Where could one find these CD's, and how would you know that they are the player piano recordings and not a scratchy one of himself?

That piano roll trick worked well for Rachmaninoff because:

(1) The piano roll technology at the time was good enough, AND
(2) Audio recording technology was NOT good enough.

Piano Roll, Disklavier, PianoDisc -- they are all very similar when it comes to recording -- they just record sequences of keystrokes and pedalling.

It would make little sense to record present day great pianists using something like Piano Roll or Disklavier because today's Audio Recording technology is so good that you'd be better off doing audio recording instead of finger-stroke/pedalling recording. (Well, may be a case can be made to do such recordings for teaching purposes -- something to let teachers and students analyse great pianists' performances keystroke-by-keystroke!)

Good pianists adapt to the instrument and the concert hall/recording studio and the audience to give the best performance, to get the best sound. Disklavier recording cannot adapt. So a particular Disklavier-recorded sequences of keystrokes/pedalling that sounded good while played on a Yamaha C7 in one hall may not sound as good on another C7 in another hall.

I think xvimbi alluded to those points earlier.

Follow THIS LINK to see the Rachmaninoff Reproducing Piano CD recording's info. (Also related: THIS LINK)