Why do we need alternating fingering for repeated notes?

[pianoplayjl]

Just another question that popped up while I was playing Debussy's prelude no 12 particularly the repeated notes section. Can somebody please offer me a good explanation since I'm not smart enough to find one?

JL

[alessandro]

I'm not familiar with the Debussy prelude 12, but more in general, you don't "need" to alternate fingers for repeated notes, but in the end, when you've mastered the technique of alternating, you can not only play them more even but also quicker.   That's often what we are talking about when talking about 'repeated' notes', it's getting them repeated in a brilliant, pearly and speedy way...

Kindly.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I'm not familiar with that piece, but if you're playing really fast repeated notes, like in Scarbo, you have to change your fingering or else you won't be able to play nearly as fast.  

It also depends on what comes next after the repeated notes.

[ajspiano]

if you use the same finger over and over you use the same muscle(s) back and forth over and over. They get tired. Comparitively to the minor work load that any 1 finger receives when alternating.

Additionally, you can make them trigger one after the other very quickly, as opposed to having to wait for the finger to get down and back up before being able to strike again..  Imagine trying to run only using one leg....?

[werq34ac]

Can you tap on the table faster with one finger or 4? Same concept except with repeated notes you tap in the same place with all 4 fingers. Playing with one finger at high speed most certainly tenses you up since it's really not possible to play without the wrist. It would kinda be like playing octaves.


However, for this piece, it might be manageable to play with the same finger. I still don't recommend it because it might tense up your hand. Oh wait, never mind, it's not really practical at all past the 1st page.

[Bob]

Less tension.

If it's slow enough you don't really have to.

[keyboardkat]

In certain cases, it is possible or even desirable to play repeated notes with the same finger.

I understand that Sviatoslav Richter used to play the repeated notes in the recapitulation of the 1st movement, Beethoven's Appassionata sonata, Op. 52, with one finger.   He felt it gave him better control.   His sound is beautifully even and the notes are evenly spaced.   But HE could do it.  Not everyone can.

[pianoplayjl]

I'm not familiar with that piece, but if you're playing really fast repeated notes, like in Scarbo, you have to change your fingering or else you won't be able to play nearly as fast.  

I watch many pianists play Scarbo and most of them use finger alternation but if my eyes don't decieve me, there is one pianist, called Hao chen Zhang (I think) who plays the repeated ntoes at the beginning by micro-shaking his hand, somewhat and using a few fingers to a key. His fingers seem to never leave the key, if my observation is correct.

I'm not asking a question about the repeated notes in Debussy's Minstrels, but a question about why we need finger alternation for very fast repeated notes. But thanks, everyone you helped a lot.

JL

[virtuoso80]

In certain cases, it is possible or even desirable to play repeated notes with the same finger.

I understand that Sviatoslav Richter used to play the repeated notes in the recapitulation of the 1st movement, Beethoven's Appassionata sonata, Op. 52, with one finger.   He felt it gave him better control.   His sound is beautifully even and the notes are evenly spaced.   But HE could do it.  Not everyone can.

This thread brought to mind that section of the Appassionata for me as well. I think it can go either way there, with a slight favoritism toward alternate fingering IMO.

In general, alternate fingering is very necessary for some pieces. You can get MUCH faster with 4321 than you ever could with 3333. Once I got used to it, I found myself applying it all over the place, even in slow music. There's a certain sense of tension you get from a repeated movement that you don't get by simply changing fingers.

[werq34ac]

This thread brought to mind that section of the Appassionata for me as well. I think it can go either way there, with a slight favoritism toward alternate fingering IMO.

In general, alternate fingering is very necessary for some pieces. You can get MUCH faster with 4321 than you ever could with 3333. Once I got used to it, I found myself applying it all over the place, even in slow music. There's a certain sense of tension you get from a repeated movement that you don't get by simply changing fingers.

In the Appasionata, the repeated notes are slow enough to play with one finger. You get a piece like the Ravel Toccata or Alborada del Gracioso and there's no way anyone is going to play the repeated notes with one finger.


As for Haochen Zhang's technique, WOW i didn't think that was possible. He maintains absolute control over the notes, though I think it's written in the score to use that fingering in the begining. However after the 1st page, you will find that he uses the 321 fingering for repeated notes.

[jesc]

I have to agree, the repeated notes in Apassionata is very slow compared to other pieces. Recall Prokofiev's Toccata Op. 11, I'm not capable of doing such with the right hand only and having the left hand do the bass (eh, there's the context of doing it with two hands being more practical than doing it with one hand or worse... one finger).

Also one of Liszt's concert etude, played by Cziffra, near the middle.

skip to 1:20

[liszt8]

If the repeated note is slow, you don't use different fingers. If it's anything above slow, you do that because it is the fastest. Playing fast repeated notes with one finger is a very bad habit, and it's a lot slower than playing with different fingers.

[chrisbutch]

While it's relatively straightforward to master fast, even repeated notes, to do so pianissimo is extremely hard. The Cziffra Gnomenreigen neatly illustrates this. Liszt marks the LH ostinato triplets in the central section pp, but Cziffra doesn't really attempt anything below about mf. The only pianist I know who played this as written was Clifford Curzon - but then he played it at about half the speed! But in this, more perhaps than in any other effect, even the finest player is governed by his instrument's action and its regulation.

[jesc]

The only pianist I know who played this as written was Clifford Curzon - but then he played it at about half the speed! But in this, more perhaps than in any other effect, even the finest player is governed by his instrument's action and its regulation.

First time I heard/read about Clifford Curzon and was glad I did. I just managed to listen to his gnomenreigen recording.

It is a good thing too since I just found an artist who was playing gnomenreigen in some passages exactly the way I wanted to play it. Most performers these days just glide over the rinforzando before the Un poco piu animato but I wanted to slow it down and thus give more emphasis to the sudden entrance of the next passage. However, I haven't encountered any high level pianist doing it. Though my teacher didn't object against me doing so, I'm quite glad I heard Curzon's version and thus feel more comfortable.

[chrisbutch]

Curzon was a very fine English pianist whose heyday was in the 1950s and 60s. Best known for his Schubert and, especially, Mozart playing - he was one of the first to explore the full range of the Mozart concertos, which were then only beginning to emerge from neglect. But also a superb Liszt player - especially in the B minor Sonata. So a very similar repertoire to Brendel a couple of decades later, though with less emphasis on Beethoven.

[jesc]

Thanks for the info, his name is added to my search "vocabulary" (which widens my results when searching for performances) 

[thorn]

I watch many pianists play Scarbo and most of them use finger alternation but if my eyes don't decieve me, there is one pianist, called Hao chen Zhang (I think) who plays the repeated ntoes at the beginning by micro-shaking his hand, somewhat and using a few fingers to a key. His fingers seem to never leave the key, if my observation is correct.

I'm not asking a question about the repeated notes in Debussy's Minstrels, but a question about why we need finger alternation for very fast repeated notes. But thanks, everyone you helped a lot.

JL

Lisitsa also plays the repeated notes at the beginning of Scarbo with one finger. Not that I'm a massive fan of Lisitsa, but yes she does this.

To be honest, the most important thing is avoiding tension and ultimately RSI. If you are able to play repeated notes with one finger without getting tired, then go for it. I wouldn't even dream of attempting it in something like Scarbo, it's not just the opening, one of the main motifs involves repeated notes which I don't think I've seen anyone play with one finger.

[jinfiesto]

I watch many pianists play Scarbo and most of them use finger alternation but if my eyes don't decieve me, there is one pianist, called Hao chen Zhang (I think) who plays the repeated ntoes at the beginning by micro-shaking his hand, somewhat and using a few fingers to a key. His fingers seem to never leave the key, if my observation is correct.

I'm not asking a question about the repeated notes in Debussy's Minstrels, but a question about why we need finger alternation for very fast repeated notes. But thanks, everyone you helped a lot.

JL

I have the Nancy Bricard edition of the Gaspard. It's an excellent performance edition, it has comprehensive fingering and notes. She suggests playing the repeated notes at the beginning in the same way. I think most pianists play the repeated notes this way? I'm pretty sure Argerich does at least.

[martinrdb]

As an intermediate level amateur, I have wondered about this question.  Has anyone else tried playing repeated notes using two fingers simultaneously (3rd and 4th work particularly well).  I seem to find better control this way and it allows me to shift the weight between the two fingers without hitting the note individually, but I do not know if it would work for repeated notes sustained for a long time.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I watch many pianists play Scarbo and most of them use finger alternation but if my eyes don't decieve me, there is one pianist, called Hao chen Zhang (I think) who plays the repeated ntoes at the beginning by micro-shaking his hand, somewhat and using a few fingers to a key. His fingers seem to never leave the key, if my observation is correct.

I'm not asking a question about the repeated notes in Debussy's Minstrels, but a question about why we need finger alternation for very fast repeated notes. But thanks, everyone you helped a lot.

JL

Okay fine then, in La Campanella, nobody plays the repeated notes section with the same fingers.

[ruvidoetostinato]

As an intermediate level amateur, I have wondered about this question.  Has anyone else tried playing repeated notes using two fingers simultaneously (3rd and 4th work particularly well).  I seem to find better control this way and it allows me to shift the weight between the two fingers without hitting the note individually, but I do not know if it would work for repeated notes sustained for a long time.

I've tried it and know some people that have done it.  I think of it like a trill but on one key.  I don't know if it would function through a longer period of time, but I can't see of a reason why it wouldn't.  Something to try next time, ey.

[perprocrastinate]

I've tried it and know some people that have done it.  I think of it like a trill but on one key.  I don't know if it would function through a longer period of time, but I can't see of a reason why it wouldn't.  Something to try next time, ey.

A tremolo?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

A tremolo?

I thought a tremolo was a trill with more than two notes.  So like trilling A root. Version of a c major chord with d major

[j_menz]

I thought a tremolo was a trill with more than two notes.  So like trilling A root. Version of a c major chord with d major

A tremolo can have more than two notes, but any two notes that are not adjacent on the keyboard  also constitute a tremolo rather than a trill.

[asuhayda]

keeps the strain on your wrist to a minimum.