Fingering for chromatic runs/scales - what is up with 1-3-1-3-1-3 ?

[pianoplunker]

Hi All,

I have been a student for almost 45 years now, learned the "proper" fingering for chromatic a long time ago via my teachers and Hanon.   The idea is to use finger number 3 on all the black keys all the way up or down. Is this really the best way to do a chromatic run ?  It seems a little clumsy to me. I can do it fairly fast but it seems like it creates a barrier when it comes to speed.  fingers 1 and 3 seem to stumble over each other unless it is a short run of only a few notes. What about alternating 2 and 3 on the black keys instead ?  I tried this and it seems like my wrist is able to roll back and forth and the notes are even. My main problem will be undoing the habit of doing it as prescribed, has anyone tried different fingering for straight chromatic runs ? Is there a technical reason for 1-3-1-3-1-3. Is that better for the hand ?  Here is fingering for a run starting on F natural and going up :
Prescribed : 2-3-1-3-1-3-1-2-3-1-3-1-2
what I am trying : 2-3-1-2-1-3-1-2-3-1-2-1-2   
Thanks for any ideas or suggestions.

Mark

[j_menz]

As for all fingering, ir's what works best for you; you've been playing long enough to avoid the beginner traps that, early on, may argue against that.

That said, I tried your suggested fingering and found it really awkward myself.  But then the 1-3 thing works for me.

[pianoplunker]

As for all fingering, ir's what works best for you; you've been playing long enough to avoid the beginner traps that, early on, may argue against that.

That said, I tried your suggested fingering and found it really awkward myself.  But then the 1-3 thing works for me.

thank you for checking it out. 1-3 works for me unless I want to add some speed then it seems to be a real push is the only way I can explain it. Scales and arpeggios dont present the same problem, probably because I am using more fingers (? )

[j_menz]

Possibly. How are your trills on these fingers?

[ajspiano]

..arm has to be more pronated to balance between 1-2..  1-3 is more central, in theory that should make the whole thing more balanced and easier to play quickly as the hand will remain closer to the middle point of balance between fingers over the keys..  or in other words.. less movement required..  this would also be affected by the fact that 3 is longer than 2 perhaps.

 

1-3 works for me unless I want to add some speed then it seems to be a real push

keybedding? failure to rotate?


....never mind me though, i'm not at a piano to test any of this out.





 

[pianoplunker]

Possibly. How are your trills on these fingers?

I put my metronome on 160 and can do 16ths at that speed fairly evenly and relaxed. Any faster and things start flying out the window

[j_menz]

If I turn my metronome on, things start flying out the window. Usually my metronome. 

Seriously, if that's the speed you can go 1-2, 1-3 and 2-3 you're about half the speed of a really good chromatic run.  I'd try and build up the speed on your trills, slowly.

alspiano is probably better able to talk you through the hand position/movement bits he's talking about.  Maybe you could explain what happens when things "go out the window" in a bit more detail.

[pianoplunker]

If I turn my metronome on, things start flying out the window. Usually my metronome. 

Seriously, if that's the speed you can go 1-2, 1-3 and 2-3 you're about half the speed of a really good chromatic run.  I'd try and build up the speed on your trills, slowly.

alspiano is probably better able to talk you through the hand position/movement bits he's talking about.  Maybe you could explain what happens when things "go out the window" in a bit more detail.

What I meant by "out the window" mainly seems to be a loss of control, unevenness, and missing notes.  The kinds of things you dont want to happen while playing piano. I dont strive to be the fastest as I think too fast can lessen the music but when it comes to chromatic scales there is an artistic benefit IMO to being able to "glide" which means  fast. You are right, my speed with that is about half of what I would like.  That is why I am questioning the fingering.I hadnt thought about practicing trills but that may be worth a try. Looking back I dont remember ever practicing trills extensively.

[kalirren]

Hanon has an "alternate" fingering for that involves groups of three and four notes on 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4, it repeats every two octaves.  It's the first one my teacher actually taught me, he said 1-3-1-3 meant I didn't know what I was doing :-p

So for RH ascending starting on F natural it goes 1234 123 1234 123 1234 123 123 ...

[j_menz]

To each his own, I guess, but that seems quite cramped to me. Maybe it's just what you're used to - I'd never know where I was, though.

[pianoplunker]

Hanon has an "alternate" fingering for that involves groups of three and four notes on 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4, it repeats every two octaves.  It's the first one my teacher actually taught me, he said 1-3-1-3 meant I didn't know what I was doing :-p

So for RH ascending starting on F natural it goes 1234 123 1234 123 1234 123 123 ...

I would not agree 1-3-1-3 means you dont know what you are doing - it is widely prescribed including Hanon. I had to take a look at my Hanon book about the alternate fingering. There is an interesting comment "Another fingering, which we particularly recommend for legato passages"
For me I cannot use 3-4 from white to black - my finger #3 was dislocated and has a slight and permanent bend towards finger #4 which makes it very difficult to squeeze in between white and black keys with 3-4.  Interestingly enough, my son who has never taken a lesson does a chromatic run very similar to the alternate you mention. Nobody ever told him about 1-3 1-3 or anything else for that matter. 

[kalirren]

Yeah, I still use 1-3-1-3 myself for runs that are less than about an octave long.

Avoiding 3-4 white-black transition is an interesting constraint.  Going further on your idea of using other fingers instead of 3 on the blacks, you might be able to do something like ...2314-13-12314-1...?

[qberticus]

I tend to use the following for speed:

Starting on B going up.

1 2 3 1 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1

The departure from the usual 1 2 3 1 3 fingering is C - E is 2 3 1 4 1 and G - B is 1 2 3 4 1.

[pianoplunker]

I tend to use the following for speed:

Starting on B going up.

1 2 3 1 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1

The departure from the usual 1 2 3 1 3 fingering is C - E is 2 3 1 4 1 and G - B is 1 2 3 4 1.

Thanks for the ideas. I will experiment.