Chopin Op10 no 1 handspan question

[pianoplayjl]

Can a person with a handspan of an octave learn and play Chopin etude op 10 no 1 to full speed?

JL

[thalbergmad]

This one is going to be fun.

Thal

[ahinton]

This one is going to be fun.

Wheter or not it would indeed be "fun" for anyone with such a handspan to learn that étude I cannot say for certain; what I can say for certain, however, is that, having heard it done by several pianists between the ages of 8 and 10 whose handspan was not yet fully developed, it is indeed possible.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

To anyone that struggles with this Etude, I always pose the same question.

What is your left hand doing??

Thal

[49410enrique]

in all seriousness i am playing a piece that is arranged in the style of this etude and i don't have large hands but i am finding the challenge is playing legato as much as possible and only 'relying' on the pedal to help keep the line smoooth where absolutely neccessary (even though you are most definately pedaling where you can connect). 

[fleetfingers]

I am trying!  

ahinton makes a great point that some little pianists are able to play it with small hands.

I can only reach an octave and can play the first few lines of this etude at a high tempo (haven't checked with a metronome to see if it's officially "full speed"). I've heard that there are some trickier arpeggios later on though . . .  

[virtuoso80]

Is it physically possible? Almost certainly yes. Is it easy? No, it's going to take really excellent technique and tons of practice. Remember, at no point during the playing of this etude should you actually be stretching your hands out uncomfortably.

[ahinton]

To anyone that struggles with this Etude, I always pose the same question.

What is your left hand doing??

And at least one viable answer might well be that what it ought to be doing is thinking about what it would have to be doing were it to be involved by the pianist concerned in performances of the various Godowsky versions thereof - vital practice material, indeed, for those that can master his 53+ Studies on Chopin's Études will be capable of playing almost anything.

Best,

Alistair

[omar_roy]

My piano teacher has small hands.  She can play an octave, maybe a 9th at full stretch and she can play just about anything, including this etude.  It's all about staying loose and smooth continous movement. 

[keyboardclass]

There's no point attempting it legato.

[49410enrique]

There's no point attempting it legato.

i assume you're referring to my comment, i apologize for not being clear (really don't want to confuse anyone) i was referring to a legato touch and line/phrasing, as called for, on my hisaishi piece which is essentially a study on op 10 no 1 using his nausicaa themematic material from his studio ghibli work on the score for the film with the same name in the title.  

i have not researchd authoratiative editions of op 10 no 1 by chopin to know be able to say for sure if a legato touch would be used or appropriate for the original work, i should have specified i was just following the composer and arranger's indication on my score

attached as image referrence and clairification.



again i'll try and be more clear inthe future hope ididn't confuse or bug anyone with my previous omission.

[thorn]

I personally think the whole purpose of this etude is the development of the mechanisms required to manage such figurations without having massive hands. If I remember correctly, Chopin had relatively small hands himself?

[keyboardkat]

One aspect of learning to play this etude is the concept of "grounding."   My own teacher, Prof. Dr. Konrad Wolff, was an exponent of this. 
The idea is, lean heavily on those left-hand octaves rather than focusing on the difficulty of the right hand part.   Whether this is a mental exercise or not, it really does seem to help.

[werq34ac]

There's no point attempting it legato.

On the contrary, why the hell not?

[keyboardclass]

On the contrary, why the hell not?

Because you'll damage your hands.

[omar_roy]

I often think that people with smaller hands have a better grasp of piano technique.  Look at all the childhood virtuosos playing works that require bigger hands.  How do little hands play big things?  By eliminating all unnecessary tension.  They tend to stretch less and move more, meaning instead of "thumb under" they use the proverbial "thumb over" technique to a much greater extent than many of us appreciate.

So, while attempting to play this legato, do not overtax your body.  It is possible to injure yourself, or at least cause some temporary soreness.  There is a certain extent to which smaller hands can play this legato, but understand that the size of your hands may limit you in that respect.  Accomplish what you can without straining your hand, and then use the piano to aid you (left hand octaves, pedal).  Piano technique, of course, is not limited to what your hands do, but to all elements of the piano, including pedaling.

[general disarray]

On the contrary, why the hell not?

Because for most pianists on this planet with normal-sized hands, it's just NOT possible to literally connect one note to the next.  The intervalic stretches in many bars prevent that.  That's why God gave us the damper pedal.  Part of this etude's many challenges is the one of mastering a pedal technique that gives the impression of legato.  That's "why the hell not."

[pianoplayjl]

Ashkenzy, I think, had really small hands, spanning a ninth at best. So that means his hands are barely larger than my sister's hands. Doesn't Ashkenazy play the whole thing legato in this video, despite the heavy dependence on pedal ? Therefore it is possible for a small handed person to connect one note to the next, am I right? I think it just requires more hand/ forearm motion and a pinaist with such hands would have a more higher chance of damaging their hands.

JL

[general disarray]

Ashkenzy, I think, had really small hands, spanning a ninth at best. So that means his hands are barely larger than my sister's hands. Doesn't Ashkenazy play the whole thing legato in this video, despite the heavy dependence on pedal ? Therefore it is possible for a small handed person to connect one note to the next, am I right? I think it just requires more hand/ forearm motion and a pinaist with such hands would have a more higher chance of damaging their hands.

JL

Your assumptions are beyond belief.  Have you actually PRACTICED this etude?  Do you really know the meaning of "legato?"  Why am I wasting my time here?  That's the best question. 

[dickknowsbest]

I can barely reach a 9th. I can play this legato, it's possible for me to join all notes together. It's marked legato not legatissimo. I think If you can reach a C to a B with 1/2, a C to an F with your 4/5 and a C to a G with your 2/4 and 2/3, the rest is just forearm action, using that I can reach a C to a G with my 4/5. If you don't use a subtle wrist action when playing it (which I think Chopin recommended), then it's almost impossible to play legato. Just my opinion.

But if you're interested in a staccato method with the damper pedal then watch this, you might find it interesting.

&feature=channel

[48dreams]

Ashkenzy, I think, had really small hands, spanning a ninth at best. So that means his hands are barely larger than my sister's hands. Doesn't Ashkenazy play the whole thing legato in this video, despite the heavy dependence on pedal ? Therefore it is possible for a small handed person to connect one note to the next, am I right? I think it just requires more hand/ forearm motion and a pinaist with such hands would have a more higher chance of damaging their hands.

JL

Ashkenazy's hands are not really small as you put it.  They are average size...nothing out of the ordinary.  I've met him and shook his hand and yes, I definitely paid attention to the size of his hands.  That said, a large hand/large span isn't necessary at all for 10/1.  It's all about technique.

[liszt8]

Well, to answer the first question, yes. Of course. My hands are only have the span of elevenths, but I've been playing that piece since my hands could only reach sevenths .

[jmanpno]

The greatest pedagogues (read: not retards on pianostreet) will admit that for people with truly small hands it can be very difficult to get this etude up to speed safely.

[49410enrique]

i assume you're referring to my comment, i apologize for not being clear (really don't want to confuse anyone) i was referring to a legato touch and line/phrasing, as called for, on my hisaishi piece which is essentially a study on op 10 no 1 using his nausicaa themematic material from his studio ghibli work on the score for the film with the same name in the title.  

i have not researchd authoratiative editions of op 10 no 1 by chopin to know be able to say for sure if a legato touch would be used or appropriate for the original work, i should have specified i was just following the composer and arranger's indication on my score

attached as image referrence and clairification.



again i'll try and be more clear inthe future hope ididn't confuse or bug anyone with my previous omission.

i've been approached by pm here and elsewhere about 'sharing' this music. unfortunately for several reaons, the main two practical ones being that i do not have a scanner right now, and the music is copyrighted so even if i actually could, i would not be able to due to how new the scores are.  be that as it may, i just checked my source where i purchased mine
and FYI they have a single copy again (usually this place lists what they have, when it sells you'll see it as 'out of stock', if you see that you can email them to see if they can get it from somewhere via special order, usually yes. i have done this).

https://animeartbookonline.com/studio-ghibli-chopin-style-arrange-piano-sheet-music-book.html


PS that image above was from my cell phone, not a scan.

[danhuyle]

If your hand only reaches an octave then you'll have to put in more effort than those who have a hand span of 9th or higher.

My right hand stretches a 9th and my left hand a 10th. Having this hand span gives me an easier time learning pieces like Chopin Etude Op10/1, however the piece itself is not an easy one.

The technique you employ will obviously be different to me and you'll have to put in more effort. With that being said, it's all about how determined you are to play Etude Op10/1. If you want to learn Etude Op10/1 that much, then you'll find way to learn it and work with what you have.

[wnlqxod]

I suppose you can, but you're gonna need to enlist the help of your wrist and elbows a bit more. Also, it may sound a little crazy, but sitting higher (high enough for your elbow to be above the key level- not a lot but just a little bit, you know?) actually helps with this piece, particularly in the facilitation department.