can you reach this chord?

[flyinfingers]

Right hand, lower E, F#, B, E.   I cannot do it despite my long fingers no matter where I position my fingers on the keys.  I certainly can reach an octave!
My teacher told me to roll it, then last week she tells me to hold each note after they're played this way.  Well, if I could do the chord, I wouldn't need to switch it up!

I know probably everyone will come back and say, NO PROBLEM!  And then those who can't   (if there are any) won't want to admit it!

Thanks

[nystul]

No problem!  Well, it is about the same difficulty as spanning a ninth...  Can you span just from the F# to the E using 2-5?  If so, you should be able to get the whole chord without much additional effort.  If not, you'll probably have to roll it.

[fleetfingers]

I can, but it's tough - most likely would miss it if I had to play it fast/suddenly. It is harder than playing an octave because you also have to have a good stretch between fingers 2 and 5. I'm trying to picture a long finger struggling to get it - is it more about contorting your hand position than about reaching?

[bustthewave]

This post makes me wonder... is it possible to eventually stretch out the 2 and 5 fingers to be significantly more flexible?

[Bob]

Sounds like something that was transposed with software.  It might work with the thumb to play two notes the way it was before it was transposed but it's a pain when it's like that.

Maybe don't play it?  Just leave out the bottom E if it's not needed. 

Or you can leave out the fifth of a chord and it will still usually sound the same.  If it's the B, that won't help much in this case.

Play it with the left hand?  Split that chord up?

Rearrange it if it's an arrangement.  It could be the arranger didn't know what they doing for "normal" pianists.  Maybe they could play it.  Maybe they weren't paying attention.  Sometimes it's possible to drop/raise a note in one hand up/down an octave so it's still present.

[flyinfingers]

Thanks everyone!  It's the ending to Chopin's Prelude in E minor.  Sure, it's easy with the left hand but my teacher can do it with her right hand no problem with shorter fingers!  Is this something that I will be able to do over time, I wonder?   I simply cannot do that chord, plain and simple, at the present time.  
You have to play two lower octaves with it left hand B and lower B, so there's no spare fingers!

When I tried to play it in a more reachable position, my forearm and hand is positioned well into my body.  Her fingers and forearm are at an angle out from her body (obviously the correct way, if there is such a thing in trying to reach a chord.)  That makes it worse for me!  I've tried it both ways and I'm stuck in the awkward position and her notes are just flowing.  Is this something that comes naturally over time?   Don't see how I can change anatomy!  Because to me, that's what it comes down to at this point.
Oh, she says the more relaxed you are, the more you can do it.  Maybe I'll try it some night after quite a few wines!

[cjp_piano]

I would leave out the B

[quantum]

Try this: Play the E major 4 note chord: E G# B E.  Practice with both 1235 and 1245 fingerings.  Hold down E B E while making movements with the 2nd finger and playing notes within reach of it.  Practice playing notes A#, A, G#, G, F#, F all with 2nd finger while continuing to hold on to E B E.  You may go up and down the notes sequentially at first.  Following that try to practice skips, eg: alternate between G and A#, F# and A, F and G#.  Keep the fingers, hand and forearm flexible at all times. 

[teosoleil]

Play the E and F# both with your thumb.

Many pieces require fingerings like that. Of course, it depends on how you lead in, though, it may be awkward.

[jtguru]

Play the E and F# both with your thumb.

I can play the chord with 1-2-4-5 easily enough, so it doesn't really matter, but I just tried this and can't do it at all. How are you supposed to play both of these notes with your thumb without hitting F at the same time?

[cjp_piano]

Play the E and F# both with your thumb.

Many pieces require fingerings like that. Of course, it depends on how you lead in, though, it may be awkward.

Are you crazy? You can't play E and F sharp with your thumb unless you have some sort of weird deformed thumb that has 2 pointers on it! haha

[iskibas]

Well, I'm sure most will be able to reach it. I was able to reach, but with much effort. If I tried to play this chord in an actual song, it would be a mess! Why don't you rearrange this? Maybe let the lower E if you want more of a strong chord, or get the other E out.

[flyinfingers]

Thanks everyone.  I tried the exercise by quantum and it didn't work.  Is this something  I will be able to achieve over time or will I never be able to since I can't right now? 
I never thought I would encounter this problem since I can easily reach an octave.  Oh, well,  shows my limited exposure to piano music taking it up again!   

[nystul]

Now that you mention it, I've played this prelude and that chord did not really bother me.  The good news is you have plenty of time to position your hand for it, and there is nothing else going on besides the chord.  Can you get the last chord in the piece (EGBE in right hand)?

[cjp_piano]

Thanks everyone.  I tried the exercise by quantum and it didn't work.  Is this something  I will be able to achieve over time or will I never be able to since I can't right now? 
I never thought I would encounter this problem since I can easily reach an octave.  Oh, well,  shows my limited exposure to piano music taking it up again!   

Leave out the B! Can you get it if you leave out the B?

[flyinfingers]

Thanks for the help -- appreciate it!  But embarrassingly -- NO!  What is wrong with my fingers?  Is it from playing handball since 1986?  I don't know.    I don't have arthritis or anything -- thank goodness, as far as I know! 

[flyinfingers]

Now that you mention it, I've played this prelude and that chord did not really bother me.  The good news is you have plenty of time to position your hand for it, and there is nothing else going on besides the chord.  Can you get the last chord in the piece (EGBE in right hand)?

Yes, I can do the chord EGBE, but it is supposed to be rolled, but I just tried it no problem.   But my elbow is like almost to my belly button.  This is not normal.   Will it get better the more I play?  I've only been playing since Oct. after not having played for 30 plus years!  YIKES!

[ajspiano]

the F# to E between the 2nd and 5th would be a big stretch for many people, without having to put the other E and B in.

If you stretch your fingers apart sideways you cause a problem..  you may find it more comfortable with your hand turned slightly sideways.. as in (this is your RH?) - turn so you palm faces a little to the left instead of straight down at the keys. Not too much, just so that its comfortable. Not something you should do all the time though it should help in the case of this kind of stretch if the 2-5 gap is too much for your hand..

[cjp_piano]

Yes, I can do the chord EGBE, but it is supposed to be rolled, but I just tried it no problem.   But my elbow is like almost to my belly button.  This is not normal.   Will it get better the more I play?  I've only been playing since Oct. after not having played for 30 plus years!  YIKES!

Hmmm. . . maybe it's as simple as sitting further to the left! Can you play the chord if it's 2 or 3 octaves too high? If it's easier, than it's a problem of your seat position =)

[flyinfingers]

Hmmm. . . maybe it's as simple as sitting further to the left! Can you play the chord if it's 2 or 3 octaves too high? If it's easier, than it's a problem of your seat position =)

Yes, that makes it better if I lean to the left, but still messy and would need some work, but my teacher told me you can't lean left or right only forward.  I can do the chord one octave higher -- struggle, but could probably work on it and then it's easier one more octave higher than that.  This is the original chord E, F#, B, E!
Why can't I lean?  Is this forbidden?
Thanks for making me feel better.  Yes, lean to the left, lean to the right, stand up, sit down fight fight fight! An old cheer from my grade school!  HA  

[outin]

Yes, that makes it better if I lean to the left, but still messy and would need some work, but my teacher told me you can't lean left or right only forward.  I can do the chord one octave higher -- struggle, but could probably work on it and then it's easier one more octave higher than that.  This is the original chord E, F#, B, E!
Why can't I lean?  Is this forbidden?

I have no idea why your teacher would forbid leaning sideways. My teacher just told me to use my stomach muscles when doing it

[cjp_piano]

Yes, that makes it better if I lean to the left, but still messy and would need some work, but my teacher told me you can't lean left or right only forward.  I can do the chord one octave higher -- struggle, but could probably work on it and then it's easier one more octave higher than that.  This is the original chord E, F#, B, E!
Why can't I lean?  Is this forbidden?
Thanks for making me feel better.  Yes, lean to the left, lean to the right, stand up, sit down fight fight fight! An old cheer from my grade school!  HA  

No, I wasn't saying LEAN to the left, I'm saying SIT further to the left while playing this piece so that your right arm is further to your right instead of in front of your belly.

Any your teacher is crazy to say don't lean left or right.

[quantum]

Can you take a picture of your hand playing this chord? 

Of course you can lean sideways.  Are you supposed to remain as vertical as a tree when playing at the extremes of the keyboard?  Maybe your teacher had a reason for asking you not to do this.  Anyways, feel free to break the don't lean sideways rule 

[flyinfingers]

We worked on the chord and it's better after my lesson today.  But I will say, every lesson since Dec. weekly my shoulders are grabbed if I lean left no matter what I'm playing.  She's from Poland and reminded me that today is Chopin's b'day.  Happy B'day Chopin!  Sorry that I'm leaning!
I can't take a pic as I'm incapable of such computer technology.  It's a pain.  Someday...
thanks everyone for your insight!   

[flyinfingers]

No, I wasn't saying LEAN to the left, I'm saying SIT further to the left while playing this piece so that your right arm is further to your right instead of in front of your belly.

Any your teacher is crazy to say don't lean left or right.

I'm not allowed to sit on the bench other than front and center to C stretched out aways from the keyboard.

[outin]

We worked on the chord and it's better after my lesson today.  But I will say, every lesson since Dec. weekly my shoulders are grabbed if I lean left no matter what I'm playing. 

Maybe your teacher reacts to your elbow getting too close to your chest rather than leaning to left/right? This is something that I have to be reminded of constantly. For me anything that involves using my hand on the "wrong side" of the body is difficult.

[1piano4joe]

See if this helps.

Practice root position four note major chords with fingers 1235.

For example play C chord twice

C  E  G  C
1  2  3   5

Go up chromatically one half step and play C# chord twice

C#  E#  G#  C#
1    2    3    5

Go back down to Chord again and repeat 4x.

Then C#,D 4x
Then D,Eb 4x

Continue up one octave and then come down the same way.

Do this a few minutes each day for a week or two.

Then go back and forth chromatically without repeating each chord twice. Another week or two.

Finally, just play 4 note chromatic scales.

I do this with all chords and their inversions. Hope this helps, Joe.

[cjp_piano]

I'm not allowed to sit on the bench other than front and center to C stretched out aways from the keyboard.

Sorry this is ridiculous! What if you're playing a piece that is all in the upper range of the piano? How are you supposed to sit in the middle and play everything up on the right?

For this Chopin prelude, I would sit in front of bass C, one octave lower then middle C.

[flyinfingers]

thanks for the tip cjp, and I will try that next time I play it.   thanks pianojoe I'll try those too!  I'm always thinking there's a better match for me as far as teachers go.  Probably a life-long quest and will have to move to a bigger city!  HA!

[1piano4joe]

Why do you think a piano bench is as wide as it is?

This is so you can shift your body while playing.

Yes, you can also move the bench left or right of center before beginning a piece to accommodate playing that piece.

Yes, you can turn your body. The spine is the axis of rotation.

Leaning is done all the time. There are both reasons and ways to lean correctly.

Leaning right- Requires moving your left foot and leg left to counterbalance your weight so you don't literally fall off the bench. Your right foot is pedaling. Reason-to play the upper right half of the piano which your left hand otherwise would not be able to reach as well as to make life easier for the right.

Leaning left- Requires your left foot to support your weight so that all your body weight is not being supported by your fingers and arms. Reason- to play the lower end of the piano which can be difficult for the right hand and arms even if your right handed.

Leaning forward-Reason-both hands are playing extreme ends of the piano. Leaning forward keeps fingers and arms perpendicular to the keyboard. Also, your upper arms will move away from your body. They will generally do this naturally without your even being aware. I know I wasn't.

Leaning backward-Reason(s)-Maybe your sitting to close but primarily when both hands are playing near the middle and especially when arms are crossed. Your right and left forearm would otherwise form a cross which is an extremely (if not impossibly) difficult playing position. Arms should generally be roughly (if not exactly) perpendicular to the keyboard to the greatest extent a piece allows.

Summary,

Like Real Estate Location, Location, Location. Or should I say move, move, move.
Understanding the how and why is paramount.

I only mentioned the leaning since other posters brought it up.

Good Luck and keep on playing, Joe.
 

[keypeg]

Even if you watch someone as "motionless" as Rubinstein, you will notice subtle shifts of weight and signs of leaning one way or another, even in old age when he stayed closer to the keys because of failing eyesight.  I used to "sit up straight" at a "perfect" immovable angle, and unlocking this in a good way is what my teacher and I are working on right now.  Like in 1piano4joe's description, we actually need to involve our whole bodies in playing.  Even if you appear to move very little, if a slight shift forward and back, side to side, pivoting a bit from left to right happen, supported from the feet up, your movement gets more fluid.  You also have joints in more than your fingers: wrist, elbows, shoulders, and more. 

I've only been at this a few months.  When your body is able to adjust naturally, then the hand and fingers get looser.  Or put another way, if you are tight in your body, it goes into the fingers too.  Conversely, with loose wrists, the shoulders and elbows unlock (for me).  When you balance in the lower part of your body as well, this helps relax a tight back, which in turn loosens the entire arm.  Then you can also angle your hand at the wrist and find a good angle to get at the keys.  That includes the slant of your hand on the piano keys, where your arms are, and where your body is.

I think little kids have to lean this way and that more because of their size, and this stays in micromovements when they get bigger, so that they are not sitting ramrod straight.  A lot of "classical" pianists sit rather still, but if you look closely you'll see that they don't "sit up straight" like students.  Something else is going on.

[keypeg]

For moving to a new location on the piano bench, I've been told by two people not to do it, and it makes sense.  The argument is that we develop a kinetik sense of location so that our arms always shoot out to the same place and know where the keys are.  If you sit elsewhere, then the relationship of a group of keys to your body gets changed.  Otoh, if you lean to the left and right, you are still physically centered vis-a-vis the piano via your toosh, to give you a sense of place.  So far that seems to work for me.

[keypeg]

Another: If I try to play that chord, the middle finger brushes close to a black note.  Recently in one of my pieces I was stiff because of the fear of pushing down an adjacent black note.  I was helped in finding other angles to my hand, moving the hand out more, letting the thumb come closer to the edge of the keys etc.  What was making it hard to play that particular chord in my music was the fear of engaging a black key next door.