Classical pianist to learn rock

[M256]

I have taken classical piano lessons for the past 9 years or so.  During that time, I have learned a great deal.

On a whim, I joined a Christian Rock band at my church.  That was a couple weeks ago.
They play from guitar chords and in some songs even have the melody note written on real sheet music.  Very different from what I'm used to.

I think it has been a good experience so far, and my piano teacher agrees.  However, she was not able to offer much advice for improving my playing with the band.
The other members of the band are not really much help either.

I have been working on my sight-reading; I can read the guitar chords with little trouble now.  However, I am at a loss as to what to practice next.
At the moment, I am playing an octave in the left hand and the chords in the right.

Does anybody have any thoughts or advice?

Thanks in advance,

Matthew

[Daevren]

Piano in rock? Only in ballads.

Anyway, the chords you have to play are chords, not guitar chords. Octave in the left hands works, but look at the leaps in the voice you create. It is poor voice leading. You should use inversions too, third in the bass.

Another thing is that you only need to have a full chord together. If the bass player plays the root notes of the chords then you can in theory leave the root out alltogether. And when the guitarist also plays along you have even fuller chords.

I think as a pianist/keyboardist you should use your more advanced chord capability. Let the guitarist play 3 note/string chords.

Listen to pianists play these styles, pop, rock, jazz, fusion...

[M256]

Hey Daevren,
Thanks for your fast response!

Piano in rock? Only in ballads.

Yes of course, you are right.  I am playing a keyboard.  

Anyway, the chords you have to play are chords, not guitar chords

I must confess ignorince.  I didn't know there was a difference between "regular" chords and guitar chords.  Could you expand on this?

Octave in the left hands works, but look at the leaps in the voice you create. It is poor voice leading.

True, true.

You should use inversions too, third in the bass.

I am familier with inversions, but I am not clear on how this applies to the bass note.

...you can in theory leave the root out alltogether.

That's an intriguing idea.  Any ideas for what I could do with my left hand? (besides picking my nose )

Listen to pianists play these styles, pop, rock, jazz, fusion...

I like that idea.  I have lots of CD's (like the WOW Hits series), but the keyboard is not emphasized in them.  Should I just try to listen closer, or is there a better plan?  I am not against spending money if there is a resource that would be truly helpful.

Again, I apologize for my ignorance.  This is a totally new area for me.

Matthew

[Daevren]

Hey Daevren,
Thanks for your fast response!

I must confess ignorince.  I didn't know there was a difference between "regular" chords and guitar chords.  Could you expand on this?

Its the same notes! The chords guitarists play are limited because there are only a few shapes that can be played confortable. Of course, the better the player is the more strange chords he could reach. I don't know if you know any guitarists, probably not, but Allan Holdsworth is a guitarist that can play chords that seem physically impossible.

But a C chord on guitar is C E G, on piano too. And an Em chord on guitar is Em G B, on piano too. That was my point. Of course you are going to voice them differently. The piano has more possibilities.

I am familier with inversions, but I am not clear on how this applies to the bass note.

Having a nice, non-disjuncted melody in the bass is important. Same with the highest notes, you could call it soprano(or descant voice).

If you play octaves in your left hand constantly, you will leap from root to root. Its ok, but not the best thing to do. Or have your notes move all parallel. Not bad in pop music, but its the worst thing to voice lead in classical music.

That's an intriguing idea.  Any ideas for what I could do with my left hand? (besides picking my nose )

This is a jazz idea. In jazz you have alot of big chords with 4 or 5 notes. Then you obviously split the tasks to create one big nice sounding chord together. Three people independently trying to play the same chord at the same time is a stupid idea.

If the chord is a triad, ie a three note chord, then you will have no problems with playing the complete chord. But if you play 7th chords you have to think about this.

What does your left hand do? Play the 3rd, 5th and 7th. Its actually stacking a triad on a bass note. If its just triads then playing all three notes is good.

Another technique often used in jazz for playing 7th chords is exchanging the 3rd and the 7th. So bassist plays the roots, guitarist plays small 3 5 7 chords on 3 strings. And you only play 3 and 7. Yes two notes for this example. So with your left hand you play the 3rd and with the right hand the 7th. Then the next chord you play the 7th in the left and the third in the right. Most of the times these notes will be very close together.

Famous example: Am7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7. So left hand(starts with the 7th), G F F E. Right hand(starts with the 3rd): C C B B.  

This example is for 7th chords only. So jazz music.

Lets do the same example with triad chords: If you have octaves in the left hand then you will have A D G C. That can be smoother, lots of leaps. Lets use an first inversion of Dm. A F G C. Much better.

The F-D interval, in the left hand of teh Dm chord isn't going to be that nice. You may want to forget about the note played by the left hand tumb altogether. And play a very simple 1-3-5 with the right hand on top of those notes. You can have alot of space between the lowest note and the next to lowest note.

But how many notes you want to play really depends on how many other people are in the band playing those chords with you. I am not a christian and rock/gospel bands in churches is an US thing anyway but I can imagine the band can be pretty big. If so you might want to be kind of conservative with the number of notes. Less might be more.

I like that idea.  I have lots of CD's (like the WOW Hits series), but the keyboard is not emphasized in them.  Should I just try to listen closer, or is there a better plan?  I am not against spending money if there is a resource that would be truly helpful.

WOW Hits series? It kind of depends. In rock, keyboards aren't used for chords that much, mainly melodies and melody harmonisations. Then there is jazz music, which has alot more complex things than you are interested in and piano solo's(not bad, obviously, but when they solo they can't play chords, well not with two hands). But jazz has alot of piano chord accompany stuff. Then there is also (jazz/rock) fusion. Sometimes keyboards, sometimes piano, electric organ and they play together with all kinds of instruments. You will have to search for stuff yourself, I am afraid. I don't know stunning examples, but I do know stunning music

I kind of touched on a similar topic in this thread: https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1095228195

Also remember I am no expert on this. I don't play piano in these settings. I do seem to know alot more than most people here. I figured I could kind of help you classical people in the right direction.

BTW, if you lack general music theory I covered/used. Point it out, and if I have time I can explain it from the bottem op. Or give you a link.

[M256]

Daevren,

I just wanted to say you have made my day.  Your in-depth responses are exactly what I was looking for!

I'll look over your comments this weekend.  This is very exciting to have some direction!

Matthew

PS
By the way, our band has a bass guitar, two folks that play electric and/or acoustic guitar, a vocalist, and me.  Does this change anything?

[Daevren]

Sounds like an ok line-up.

If there is an bassist than the thing about the melody in the bass voice is less important. Because yor lowest notes aren't the lowest in the mix. But you may still want to use inversions.

You just have to make sure you cooperate with the chord playing guitarist(s). Ask him/her what chords he/she is going to play. Then figure out what you can play to enchance the chord. If he is playing power chords(only 1 and 5) with lots of distortion then he doesn't have a 3rd. If he plays something high up on the guitar, you play something lower. If he plays somewhere in the middle register, you might want to play a bit higher. Just cooperate together and make sure you get well balanced chords. Experiment, and if it sounds good, it is good.

[ChristmasCarol]

I found a great book,

"1000 Keyboard ideas" edited by Ronald Herder.  www.musicbooksnow.com  This will get you started.  

Just a note, rock music is best learned riff by riff.  So set a goal of a couple of riffs a week and play them in numerous keys.  The book has some, but I learned best by picking out some music I liked and concentrating until I could play a particular sound.  Crank up a cd and play along.  The feel drives the bus in my opinion.  I teach my little guys to do what I call "paintbrush playing".  I lay down some rhythms and they sit beside me and just start playing.  I get lots of smiles.  My husband used to do that with our little girl.  She just played to her hearts content and you should hear her play.

By the way, your classical music will benefit from this trip.  I'm convinced Beethoven would have gone nuts with a synthesizer.  

Carol

[M256]

Having a nice, non-disjuncted melody in the bass is important.

As I understand it, "non-disjuncted" means any jump of a third interval or more is out.
Is this correct, and how does this fit in with your example of playing A F G C in the bass?

Or have your notes move all parallel. Not bad in pop music, but its the worst thing to voice lead in classical music.

What does it mean for notes to move parallel?
Also, as best I can figure, voice leading is using chord inversions to improve chord voicing with the effect of minimizing hand movement. Is this correct?

Three people independently trying to play the same chord at the same time is a stupid idea.

Agreed.

What does your left hand do? Play the 3rd, 5th and 7th. Its actually stacking a triad on a bass note. If its just triads then playing all three notes is good.

Sorry if I'm incredibly dense. Are you suggesting playing the 3rd, 5th, and 7th at the same time in a chord, or octaves as a moving bass line?

Lets do the same example with triad chords: If you have octaves in the left hand then you will have A D G C. That can be smoother, lots of leaps. Lets use an first inversion of Dm. A F G C. Much better.

Yes, it is better.  In one of my songs, I have the chords Dm Am F G.  To apply this idea, should the left hand octave be something like D C A G?

I found a great book,
"1000 Keyboard ideas" edited by Ronald Herder.  www.musicbooksnow.com  This will get you started.

I'll check that out!

By the way, your classical music will benefit from this trip.  I'm convinced Beethoven would have gone nuts with a synthesizer.

That's nice to know.  I have noticed I am enjoying the piano more (classical included).  I guess they are right; variety is the spice of life!

Thanks again for your comments.

Matthew

[Daevren]

As I understand it, "non-disjuncted" means any jump of a third interval or more is out.
Is this correct, and how does this fit in with your example of playing A F G C in the bass?

A jump of a third is ok. But more than a third and it gets bigger. Not really a big problem, but in general try to have fluid melodies in the lowest and highest voice.

What does it mean for notes to move parallel?

If you go from a C chord to a Dm chord and just move the whole chord up one step. All 'voices' move parallel. Its best to see it on sheet music.

Also, as best I can figure, voice leading is using chord inversions to improve chord voicing with the effect of minimizing hand movement. Is this correct?

An inversion means that a note other than the root of the chord will be in the bass/lowest voice. If you have a simple three notes triad, its like moving the root note up an octave, for example a C chord: C E G. Then the first inversion would be: E G C. Then E, the third is in the bass. Actually any C chord with the E as the lowest voice will be called a first inversion. (or a 6th chord, because the interval from E to C is a 6th). So a second inversion would be: G E C.

I recommend using root position and first inversion voicings. Second inversions generally sound less good. But just use your ear.

Also, using inversion will make the chords easier to play. Another way you can use to play a chord very comfortable is just move every finger to the closest note of the next chord.

Sorry if I'm incredibly dense. Are you suggesting playing the 3rd, 5th, and 7th at the same time in a chord, or octaves as a moving bass line?

I don't think a bass line will work, you already have a bass line, the bassist. You can play some bass line if you play solo or with a guitarist. Arpeggios generally don't work well in up-beat songs. In ballads they will work excellent. Just make sure you have a consistent arpeggio pattern, just like all those classical pieces have. But for up-beat songs you just want to play block chords, all notes together, using some nice groove/rhythm feel.

Yes, it is better.  In one of my songs, I have the chords Dm Am F G.  To apply this idea, should the left hand octave be something like D C A G?

Sounds excellent. The next chord is probably C, the leap to the C note is ok. Why? Well, if you understand the function of those chords you will know why. Its just that G to C is a cadence. Those chords will sound stronger in root position. And, the leap will emphasis the cadence. Leaps aren't bad, but using the same chord shape, and playing root octaves for every chord will sound bad. But try it yourself and listen.


Another thing to add is when you play the Am and F chord in second inversion, playing an octave of the third might not be a good idea. If you play two C's in an Am chord then this will have a big influence on the chords sound. Because in general, the 3rd is the least dominant note in that chord. If you play a 3rd octave in the left hand you will get a big 3rd sound in that chord.

Those chords don't have a 7th, so you don't play them. You could play them. But you have to know which seventh is the right one. But since you are just starting out, so just forget about everything I said about 7ths. With just three notes it is alot easier.

Also, keeping the notes close together will make the chord sound more tight/tense. If you really cover the whole keyboard/piano the chord will sound more open, more relaxing.

Another thing is that playing non-chord notes is no problem. Notice that your example is in C major. So if you hit a white key by accident it will probably sound ok. Make sure you play sounding confident. If you hit the chords firm and in time then that will make the difference.

You could actually ask most people "Ok, listen to us play this verse and then you are going to play along, white keys only, just act like you know what you are doing" and then they will start to play. If they have some musical talent and the self esteem/acting skills/so what attitude it will sound ok. And if it doesn't, no one will probably notice.

[M256]

If you go from a C chord to a Dm chord and just move the whole chord up one step. All 'voices' move parallel. Its best to see it on sheet music.

So is the important thing the voices moving up one step, or is it the shape of the chord?
For example, is an Am chord played in root position moved up to a C played in root position a parallel?

If you play two C's in an Am chord then this will have a big influence on the chords sound. Because in general, the 3rd is the least dominant note in that chord. If you play a 3rd octave in the left hand you will get a big 3rd sound in that chord.

That makes sense.  And, now that you mention it, I think I can hear it.

You could actually ask most people "Ok, listen to us play this verse and then you are going to play along, white keys only, just act like you know what you are doing" and then they will start to play. If they have some musical talent and the self esteem/acting skills/so what attitude it will sound ok. And if it doesn't, no one will probably notice.

Yes, I agree.  In a way, it's kind of sad.  Is there any reason to improve if nobody will notice?


You have given me some great theory here.  I will try to apply this in my playing.
Once I get to a point that I can sight read almost any chords and apply all of your suggestions, have I arrived?  If not, what direction do you think I should look to improve?
I have a copy of "1000 Keyboard ideas" (suggested by ChristmasCarol) on its way; hopefully that will have lots of information.

Matthew

[shas]

read the Mark Levin book (the jazz piano book) I know it's for jazz but it will awnser your question and i would strongly recomend it to anyone and tend to do so at any opertunity. lol