Bach is a bastard...(Bach Partita no 1 & Beethoven Sonata op 109)

[perfect_pitch]

Well... metaphorically speaking... sorry about the Title.

My frustration comes from when I did the Bach Partita No. 1 for an exam, and one of the main comments is that they didn't like the articulation I had done, or my ability to vary repeated sections etc... It seems that with Bach an examiner can validate your playing and interpretation and another can tell you it's crap and worthless.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth me tackling the Fellowship Exam again, and I picked up the first Mov from the Bach and the Beethoven to get my fingers working again.

I would like you all to be brutally honest about what you think sucks, what you think works, or what just needs a little tweaking. I'm fine with comments like 'that sucks'... if you can validate why and give some help. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[johnmar78]

mate, I have not listened to your recordings yet, I think you should change the title. Basically you are showing no respect to Bach. Sorry is not acceptable.  The is a very poor atitude.

[pianowolfi]

Well... metaphorically speaking... sorry about the Title.

My frustration comes from when I did the Bach Partita No. 1 for an exam, and one of the main comments is that they didn't like the articulation I had done, or my ability to vary repeated sections etc... It seems that with Bach an examiner can validate your playing and interpretation and another can tell you it's crap and worthless.

That's exactly the reason why I quit playing Bach alltogether for a while. I have played some parts of the C-Minor Partita for an exam years ago, and it was exactly my impression too, everybody seems to know what is "correct" in Bach and what not, but they all say different things. So you're wrong in any case. In my case the main critique (I passed the exam though) was that I did not play the dotted notes in the French Ouverture part as double dotted notes, as the period interpreters do

So I don't know if my comment is really helpful for your preparation for an exam.
To me it sounds very beautiful, but actually a bit tentative, as if you are afraid of doing something wrong. I think you will have to decide for an interpretative concept. I'd add a bit of pedal, at least on this particular piano as it sounds a bit dry. Further I'd try to vary the dynamics a bit more, especially in the two- or threefold sequences, for instance 0:13 through 0:28. Never in my whole life I'd believe anybody who says that Bach would have limited himself to the restrictions of the instruments of his time, if he had had a modern piano at hands.

(I only listened to the Bach so far)

[furtwaengler]

You're ornaments and articulation seem very consistent based on my one hearing, though the end dies down in an unexpected way related to your conservative approach. This partita is a very beautiful piece, and one that I think deserves a bit more freedom than you give it here...It could be that a jump in tempo would help, as it strikes me a little labored in it's current state - but that's not to say it couldn't work at this tempo if the individual lines take on a more songful character and individual freedom of expression. I keep going back to the word freedom...I feel like you need to just let loose and make some music and not worry about what these examiners think.

Samuel Feinberg embodies this freedom, and though It's probable you would not get away with playing as he does in an examination of this caliber (it's my opinion in general that what many think of concerning a historically informed approach to Bach on the piano puts chains on poor Bach's music), appreciating his approach may now open up somethings for you which may help you later.

Feinberg:

(My reservation in publishing these comments is that I am far from a scholar nor will I try to be, but I am simple a person that likes music and one educated by the love of music. Moreover,  I know I will never pursue anything like the Fellowship Exam you're thinking of...it is so far beyond me to think of such things. I think you are an excellent musician with great potential, and I hope with or without the exam you will be able to get what you want out of the pursuit of music and the piano. I wish you the best of luck.)

[keyboardclass]

Feinberg:

How delightful to wake up to Samuil Feinberg!

[birba]

Pianowolfi and furtwaengler hit it right on the head.  I'm curious, too, to know why you made that diminuendo at the end.  It sounds a bit like you're trying to please someone else, other then yourself.  It sounds VERY tentative.  Like you're being very careful not to step on anybody's toes.  You can't go into an exam of that importance with a performance like this.  DON'T think about what others might think.  You would never get anything with the way it stands now.  But if you find what YOU want to say, it will be convincing.  whether it pleases anyone else or not.  And, thus, a chance of getting the fellowship.
I'm very curious to hear the Beethoven .  Will get to it later.

[perfect_pitch]

mate, I have not listened to your recordings yet, I think you should change the title. Basically you are showing no respect to Bach. Sorry is not acceptable.  The is a very poor atitude.

Well... Bach isn't for everyone, so deal with it.

And considering I wasn't having a go at Bach personally... I was having a go about the fact that it seems hard to perfect Bach in a way that not only remains authentic to the era, but remains unique that you're not trying to recreate a recording of Gould or Hewitt or some other pianist.

It seems hard to get it right on a professional level. As for the diminuendo at the end, I did this piece back for my Fellowship exam, but however did fail it (not by much though).

I'm interested in taking another shot at it however, I'm trying to think of a new approach from how I approached it last time. Here is my previous performance late in 2009:

Honestly - I haven't had a lot of experience with Bach, so I AM rather tentative when it comes to Bach.

[keyboardclass]

Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?

[perfect_pitch]

Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?

You're right - why should we listen to you playing:

When we can listen to Richter?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAYBE... because I'm not a smug, arrogant arsehole, and I'd actually like to develop my skills as a pianist and seriously respect what other people have to say.   

[keyboardclass]

I find his too hurried and doesn't have the same bounce and mine's played on the original instrument (which I tuned myself).  Of course the recording quality's a bit grating!  Why should we listen to your Bach?  It's not an idle question.

[birba]

I don't think keyboardclass wants to be rude.  What he's saying is "why should we listen to your bach?"  Like he said, it's not an idle question.  You have to make us WANT to listen to your bach.  Go overboard.  Play it the way you feel it inside of you.  Respond to your nature.  It might be romantic - it might not be to everyone's liking, but it will be you and even if they don't like it, they will be curious enough to listen to it.  Get it?  Make this Bach yours.

[starstruck5]

I agree with Birba -if those examiners want to quarrel with your Bach, make them be true to their prejudice, screw them.  You should just be true to your own vision -

I always think that if Bach was around today he would play the modern piano - if he did, then there is no question he wouldn't try and play it like a harpsichord -There are some fine videos on Bach on YouTube by Angela Hewitt -check them out, if you haven't already.

Supposing Glenn Gould turned up for an exam -would he fail? I know some people quarrel with his extremities -but no one has ever accused Gould of playing to please anyone else! He had an artistic vision and he had the balls to be true to it. Even those who hate his playing, can't ignore the questions he raised -and isn't this what an artist is meant to be?

[pianowolfi]

I don't think keyboardclass wants to be rude.  What he's saying is "why should we listen to your bach?"  Like he said, it's not an idle question.  You have to make us WANT to listen to your bach.  Go overboard.  Play it the way you feel it inside of you.  Respond to your nature.  It might be romantic - it might not be to everyone's liking, but it will be you and even if they don't like it, they will be curious enough to listen to it.  Get it?  Make this Bach yours.

You are a nice person Birba, you are trying to see always the positive side!

To me Keyboardclass' comment was as rude as can be. And whereas you, Birba, are very encouraging, I think that Keyboardclass' intention was not to encourage Perfect_Pitch but only to say to him "I don't give a **** about your Bach, Feinberg does a much better job (and I can do it even better with my period instrument etc.blah blah)"

To me that's just disgusting and not even remotely helpful.

[keyboardclass]

Not especially to get into debate but In previous centuries you had to play a work to hear it. Now, when pretty much everybody's rendition of a work is readily available, why listen to some amateur unless they have something to offer?   THE TIMES HAVE CHANGED  Just an accurate performance is no longer enough. 

[pianowolfi]

Not especially to get into debate but In previous centuries you had to play a work to hear it. Now, when pretty much everybody's rendition of a work is readily available, why listen to some amateur unless they have something to offer?   THE TIMES HAVE CHANGED  Just an accurate performance is no longer enough. 

As if it had been enough in the times back then 
Amateur??? Perfect_pitch is for sure not an amateur. To me he's a very professional pianist who is humble and courageous enough to post his recordings to get advice from other pianists.

[pianowolfi]

@perfect_pitch
I am listening now to your op. 109 movement and I think that it has greatly matured since I heard you play it the last time (I don't remember which specific recording it was). I think you bring out many of the beauties of this movement, it feels like it just had some time to sink in and ripe.

[keyboardclass]

To me he's a very professional pianist who is humble and courageous enough to post his recordings to get advice from other pianists.

As I've not had a listen I'll just have to take your word for it.

[pianowolfi]

As I've not had a listen I'll just have to take your word for it.

So you did not listen? Why do you comment on an audition room post at all, then? 

[keyboardclass]

I listened to Feinberg!

[pianowolfi]

I listened to Feinberg!

Good for you, I guess So you might repost the link to Feinberg's recording in the video thread and then comment on it there. This is about perfect_pitch's recording, not about Feinberg's. Furtwängler posted this link in the context of his comment, after he had listened to perfect_pitch's recording, which is a totally different point than yours, obviously.

[keyboardclass]

Or maybe I should comment on my own entry into this rarified domain?

edit: well, I listened - happy?

[pianoman53]

In general, I don't agree with anything Keyboardclass writes. I don't really agree on this statement either, but he's got a point. Why should we listen to your Bach? Or why should we listen to anything?
Everyone is different, and it's the difference that makes us special, obviously. Don't try to play "correct". Myra Hess got some critic for playing some ornaments the wrong way (under instead of over, or whatever). The next concert, she mixed them, and most critics couldn't hear the difference.
My point is, as long as you do it with inner affection, people wont (well, there will always be but...) say you're wrong. Or better, people might say it's wrong, but that you pulled if off anyway.

My problem with your Bach is that it sounds heavy. Why? Because you don't make enought difference either in phrasing nor in colour. It's a rasing melody, so, generally, it should do a crescendo, and a bit diminuendo on the trill, as a new start. The middle voice (the Bflat) should obviously be the softest one, but still very important.

Try to develop that, and it will get much better very fast.

[perfect_pitch]

To me Keyboardclass' comment was as rude as can be. And whereas you, Birba, are very encouraging, I think that Keyboardclass' intention was not to encourage Perfect_Pitch but only to say to him "I don't give a **** about your Bach, Feinberg does a much better job (and I can do it even better with my period instrument etc.blah blah)"

That's the impression I got... Maybe you're right Keyboard class... why bother listening to it.

HEY. We can take it one step further and maybe just not listen to any of the recordings people post up here on this board... or even just shut the whole damn Audition room down... Hell - why should anyone bother with trying when Richter, Brendel, Hewitt and many other pianists have already played these pieces to death???

(Warning - the last statement may contain traces of sarcasm)

Thank you to pianowolfi and pianoman53 for offering some advice and something worth posting...

I'm interested in trying to perfect my skills as a pianist, and that's why I post my recordings here. So I can get advice on how to better myself. Seems like you have very little to offer to this post, so how about you bugger off and leave my post, and take your condescending crap onto someone elses post.

[lostinidlewonder]

It seems like Bach is not the only bastard.

[emill]

Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?

Isn't this AUDITION ROOM?
Unless I am missing out on some unique nuances in the character of pianists or a history of animosity between K and Pp or just plain professional jealousy ..... I think the statement is arrogant and brash!!

As I've not had a listen I'll just have to take your word for it.   

And since you did not even listen to the performance in the first place (and to think this is AUDITION ROOM) your comment is out of place and uncalled for.  It is provocative, plain and simple!!!!!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Every time we post here we always prepare ourselves to be criticized, sometimes harshly ... although we may not fully agree with some of them.  We try to maintain an open mind, always telling ourselves that each pianist is unique and is the product of a myriad of variables - his  training, education, inclinations and even his upbringing.  But always we feel that comments about one's performance, even Slow_Concert's performances, should be guided by CIVILITY.
You can always say "your playing is lousy" in a nice and constructive way. Is that too much of an expectation?

[keyboardclass]

It seems like Bach is not the only bastard.

emill, you miss the point which I'll state again - it was not an idle comment.

[rob47]

It seems like Bach is not the only bastard.

hahahahahah yessss

i'm not even sure why but i lol'd hard when i got to this comment

[perfect_pitch]

emill, you miss the point which I'll state again - it was not an idle comment.

Seems to me it you had no point, other than to be a condescending wanker...

Now I can't believe that this has happened to my thread, considering I've posted many other auditions and nothing like this has happened - so without any more interruptions from keyboardass keyboardclass, can we please treat the forum with the dignity it deserved before the evil one tainted it???

[keyboardclass]

You exactly do sensitive do you?  - playing or posting.

[nyiregyhazi]

I find his too hurried and doesn't have the same bounce and mine's played on the original instrument (which I tuned myself).  Of course the recording quality's a bit grating!  Why should we listen to your Bach?  It's not an idle question.

Yes it is. It's a pretence at being profound by asking a question instead of providing a statement. Speaking in riddles does not automatically equate to profundity by any kind of bizarre default- especially if the best justification you can give for you own playing (of something as ridiculous as a Prelude presented without its corresponding fugue) is what instrument it was played on. Why are you still allowed to constantly troll these boards with your indiscriminate rudeness and hypocrisy?

[keyboardclass]

Such vitriol! - makes a poor companion to art.

[birba]

To get back to the topic, I listened to your beethoven and i liked it very much.  There were some beautiful moments there.  This is my favorite sonata - almost more then the op. 111.  In the beginning, I would give it a more  improvisational character.  That means playing a little faster certain "declamatory" phrases.  This will help unify it a bit more.  Lots of pianists tend to drag out these parts but the structure falls apart.  But like I said, there were some magical moments there that made me really stop and take notice.

[nyiregyhazi]

Such vitriol! - makes a poor companion to art.

Just as a fugue makes a poor companion to a Prelude? Instead of single sentence posts (a structure that would traditionally have been expected to involve some form of wit, in lieu of topical substance) and inexcusably rude dismissals of other posters, why don't you go and learn one? How about channelling your frustrations with life into something postive- rather than into trying to put down whichever poster happens to have strayed into the cross-hairs of your self-esteem issues?

[perfect_pitch]

Thanks to those who've offered me their thoughtful compliments and advice.

I've just started taking these two pieces up again after almost 16 months, so it will be a while before I can regain the character and sound of these pieces again.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I listened to the Bach. I would probably try to make more of the question/answer phrases within it, but your playing is obviously technically competent, the ornaments sound well-honed and nothing obviously wrong jumps out, as I would expect from the playing of someone preparing for an important examination.

I really don't envy your task, because I can imagine that, if technical competence is a given, and the exam is judged primarily on interpretational matters, then who is to say that it's not ultimately a matter of how much your interpretation compares to the judges' own preconceptions. (And with Bach, there is the distinct possibility that one or more of them may have very definite views as to what is the "correct" interpretation.) Rather than second-guessing what they may or may not expect, I'd advise you to settle on ideas in your own mind, develop them, and do it on your terms. At least you're more likely to sound convincing if it's something you believe in rather than your attempt to play it how you imagine they think it should be played. Best of luck.

[costicina]

Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?

I posted my thoughts about this in the new thread Perfect has started in the Performance board...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Come on now, the title isn't that bad.  He obviously doesn't think that Bach is a Bastard.

It's like saying, "hey *** you" to your friend in a jokingly manner.

I don't know if adults do it, I'm only 16 and that's how we always talk.

[pianoplayjl]

I couldn't agree more about the title; his pieces make me screw up in concentration.

I only listened to the Beethoven and it was Ok.

JL

[alessandro]

Shocking title, indeed, but you are forgiven.

There is indeed not an overall quality in the ornaments.   The three left hand trillo in bar 9 and 10 are in their "tail" (if I may say so) unfinished.   The right hand "accent and trillo" in bar 13 is somptuous but you don't play this same "accent and trillo" in the right hand, bar 18. 
I hope you don't lose the self-confidence that is really needed in playing Bach, at least for me.   It's not the type of composition to roam or wander around in.  You first have to have a vision in detail of the entire work in mind before you can let in some freedom in interpretation.   And, as other people answered in this topic, don't mind too much the jury.   There is indeed sometimes something like two camps in Bach-jurors.   But you are the free human being in the whole story.   You should know it when you play this prealudium and partita well, what others think about it is not very important.  (Also the "half" notes, one can feel that you sometimes hesitate in your legato, or better non-legato ; t's as if that you want to play in some spots non-legato, but you can hear that there is not an overall consistence.  Try to know for every note how you want to play it).

Bach is for me very difficult.   But we know we are not the only ones that struggle with him.   That is probably one of the reason why I like Bach.   It sounds and looks easy, but it's terribly difficult.

Anyway, I wish you lots of success with your ambitions.

Kind greetings.

[perfect_pitch]

Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?

I posted my thoughts about this in the new thread Perfect has started in the Performance board...

Wait a minute... excuse me??? What's this about a thread I apparently started in the Performance board??? I don't remember starting any threads in the performance board.  

And thanks for the advice alessandro... as I said - it's not that Bach is a bastard, it's the concept of trying to play it in a unique manner that still conforms to the music and style of Bach. I'll look at my ornamentation and try to think long and hard about how I want this piece presented.

[costicina]

Sorry  , the thread was started by Keyboardclass.
Anyway, don't worry, you'll never find two persons agree on the way he should be played. In the Italian conservatories programs Bach has the lion's part: for the examination before the Diploma, you have to study 24 P&F from WTC, 12 from Book I, 12 from Book II, and every examination board has different views about the way he should be played   (one of the reasons I never tried to enter it  )... 

I liked very much your 109. At first it seemd to slow, but the tempo you chose creates an effective  interplay ot dynamics contrast..... 

[pianowolfi]

Sorry  , the thread was started by Keyboardclass.
 

No it wasn't started by Keyboardclass, it was started by perfect_pitch.

[m1469]

Ah gawd, I can't *WAIT* to play Bachy Boy again!  I would like to play the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue, or something else (open to teacher's thoughts, of course), but I for sure want to -sometime soon- get at least the prelude and fugue in g minor back bk. I, and maybe the p/f in d minor bk II (back). 

hmmm ... Bach is not a ***    Bach is a great, person 

[alessandro]

Might be a little bit teasing, but just to change - a little - your mind : two Bach partita's excerpts, no jury implied, always discussable in approach, but with freedom.  In case you have heard them both, just for the fun to join them here, it might lighten up.

Sweet flirting with mellow.

Freestyling, groovy.

&feature=related

And, oh yes, no Partita, (I'm off) but gosh (actually learning this prelude) do I love this one.  Skip intro to 0:22 - such fun...

&feature=related



 

[perfect_pitch]

I have heard the Tureck recording before from the 100 best Pianists of the 20th Century, but the Argerich was quite interesting... and Joanna MacGregor seems like such a sweet player.

Thanks for that alessandro. I could do with a little inspiration.

[werq34ac]

I listened to your performance of the partita, and...

Some parts were REALLY good. How you tapered off some of the phrases were really nice.

On the other hand, there are times when it seems like you just don't care. I'm not exactly sure what I mean by that, but it just seemed a bit matter of fact rather than tender. In that aspect you weren't consistent with your phrasing.

As for the ending, I actually prefer the diminuendo at the end (that's what I did..). It feels nicer to me. I mean (assuming you play the other movements) there's plenty of room for energetic and confident in the next movement right? I feel that the diminuendo is more intimate than a crescendo.

I didn't listen to the Beethoven because I have no experience with the piece. I mean I COULD listen to it, but it wouldn't benefit you very much.

As for keyboardclASS. Either he's being ridiculous or just plain rude.
In the case that he was trying to be helpful, then the implication is that you should play AS WELL as Feinberg which is to say, ridiculous. If you did, you'd be better known right?

The other way his comment could have been taken, then I say to him, THEN WHY THE HELL DID YOU READ THIS THREAD ANYWAY DUMBASS???

[jesc]

No it wasn't started by Keyboardclass, it was started by perfect_pitch.

Ok, I'll try to clarify what happened to that point by costicina. Everybody's riled up and these small, tiny misunderstandings could make things worse.


                                                    Once Upon A Time

Costicina made the mistake of identifying a thread in the Performance Board titled "Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?" as started by Perfect_Pitch.

In truch the Topic Entitled:"Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?" in the Performance Board was actually started by Keyboardclass (probably to further annoy a larger group of people which in all respects succeeded)

Now, of course, Perfect_Pitch was confused cause he didn't start that thread, the reason for the multiple???  

Costicina realized her mistake and appropriately apologized for misidentifying the author of the topic on the Performance Thread.

Then, her apology "the thread was started by Keyboardclass." was mistaken to point to the thread here on the Audition Room by Pianowolfi thus he wanted to correct her that Perfect_Pitch actually started the thread.

Somehow jesc was annoyed that day and decided to set things straight cause he knows that there are a lot of misunderstandings going on in the forum. He then thinks that this is quite easy to clarify and attempted to do so.

...........further misadventure follows and supposedly everyone lived miserably ever after.

                                                                THE END

[costicina]

Thank you, Jesc,
it would have taken me hours to clarify  in English the intricacies of the plot. You have done it for me exemplarly 

[j_menz]

Thank you, Jesc,
it would have taken me hours to clarify  in English the intricacies of the plot. You have done it for me exemplarly 

Can't wait for the movie version.

[keyboardclass]

Can't wait for the movie version.

Why is the villain always English?