Any tips for crossing 3 or 4 over 5?

[1piano4joe]

I find crossing my ring finger over my pinkie awkward. And crossing my middle finger over my pinkie even stranger. Does anyone have any tips on how to do this or videos to see the motion?

Is this an acceptable technique? I have very little experience with this and just sort of do it.

I first did this in "Opening" by Philip Glass. My right pinkie plays a D and then my right middle finger crosses my pinkie to play the Eb.

I am now studying Humming Song by Schumann Op. 68 No. 3. Three different editors all have these "Pinkie Crossings". They seem (to me anyway) to be the only way to keep the melody legato. I am referring to Bars 10 and 14. The editors are Alfred Dorffel, Viktor Merzhanov and Clara Schumann.

C. Schumann breaks the legato in measure 14 and uses a finger substitution and Merzhanov breaks the legato in bar 10. These breaks occur from omitting the "Pinkie crossing" and releasing the pinkie in the melody to play the next higher melody note with the pinkie again. Only the Dorffel edition from the Petrucci Library has true finger legato.

I am experimenting with playing my pinkie near the edge of the white keys when preparing to cross. Also, it seems possible (with my hand anyway) to collapse my pinkie and have it go under much the way the thumb does. I also noticed that tucking the pinky way in (claw position from Fink) shortens it to the same relative length as the thumb making crossing much easier. My fourth finger is about one inch longer than my pinkie but three inches (extended position) longer than my "clawed pinkie".  Lastly, like thumb over in fast scales and clustering I am attempting what I will call "Pinkie Over". This is achieved in the right hand by keeping my right elbow in and abducting the hand. Seymour Fink says, "To abduct hands, while in the normal playing position, is to shift them to the outside with thumbs pushing forward; to adduct them is to project 5th fingers forward, causing the wrists to bend outward". This is page 19 in the definitions section. I read the book and watched the DVD. I found it informative and very well written.

Does the paragraph directly above make any sense to anybody? Am I on the right track?

 It seems like less of a cross that way and just tilting my hand a little lets the much longer finger just reach the next key without actually "crossing over". In the "Humming Song" both the right thumb and pinkie are depressed while crossing with 4 in bar 10 and 3 in bar 14 which seems to very slightly diminish crossing reach.
 
 I have spent several hours trying to research this and unfortunately came up empty.  

I came across an unusual edition online with both the first and last eight bars written with the notes on the beat with the stems down. Written this way would mean playing these bars much like the right hand does as now there are two voices in the left hand as well. The website is www.janwolters.nl/blad/humming.pdf.  
  

Any help, comments or tips as always are greatly appreciated. Thank you, Joe.



                                                                                        

[ajspiano]

RH - rotate the forearm to the right more as you play the 5th, so that the palm faces left more. Don't try to stretch the 3rd or 4th across the 5th. To play the 3 or 4, turn the arm back to the left so that the palm returns to facing the keys.

Practice by playing a chromatic with 534345343 etc (begins on c)

[1piano4joe]

Thank you for the fast reply ajspiano.

The forearm rotation you describe sounds like how scales in double thirds are to be executed. Is this the missing motion I am to add?

I have a question about the exercise you mentioned.

C   C#   D     D#   E         F    F#   G   G#   A   A#   B        C   etc.
5    3     4     3     4         5    3     4    3    4    3     4        5

Is that correct? If so then,

First 3 crosses 5 then 3 crosses 4. Three always plays a black key. Between E and F and again between B and C there is no black key and thus no crossing the pinkie. 5 always plays C and F.

Do I have this right?

This is probably a stupid question but should I practice this descending? I only ask since it is very hard to do.

For the left hand 5 goes on E and B. Three again always plays a black key. F and C are played with 4. The crossing occurs in the descending chromatic scale. So, should I practice this ascending?

A scary thought just occurred to me. Hands together. Parallel and contrary motion. Yikes!

Have I said anything incorrect?  Thank you, Joe.

[ajspiano]

looks all good to me - you'll have to be able to do it descending if you ever plan on playing chopins 2nd etude, and since that is arguably the hardest of the set you're certainly correct in pointing out that it is difficult to master.

[keyofc]

Looks like very wierd fingering to me  -
can you put an excerpt of the music up?

[ajspiano]

Looks like very wierd fingering to me  -
can you put an excerpt of the music up?

do you mean the chopin?  are you not familiar with it at all? - its the only possible fingering as fingers 1 and 2 are already occupied playing chords beneath the chromatic scale. There is variations in the fingering to accomadate the directional changes and the notes played by fingers 1 and 2.

https://www.pianostreet.com/chopin-sheet-music/etudes/etude-op-10-2-a-minor.htm