Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?

[keyboardclass]

Why indeed.

[costicina]

At first sight, this is the more devastating reply I’ve ever read in this forum. But let’s put it in this way:

to come to full existence, a soul needs a living being to inhabit, not matter if a cat, a child, a beautiful women. It’s roughly the principle of the soul transmigration belief, or of the horror movies featuring zombies, craving  for a transubstantiation into a real, flesh and bones  individual.

Well, IMO this is true for every piece of music, too. It  exists in its full, complete state only when executed by somebody. In this respect, every performance of a piece has a right of its own. No matter if played by gifted pianists or by a plain, inept amateur like me, the act itself of learning, playing a piece is a way to bring it to life, to make it real again. 

And a world populated only by perfect human beings, like the one the craziest eugenics exponents dreamed of,   would be  a frightening nightmare….

[keyboardclass]

Should not at times the dead bury the dead?

[birba]

Is this some sort of esoteric rebus?

[keyboardclass]

Is this some sort of esoteric rebus?

Luke 9:60

[pianowolfi]

At first sight, this is the more devastating reply I’ve ever read in this forum. But let’s put it in this way:

to come to full existence, a soul needs a living being to inhabit, not matter if a cat, a child, a beautiful women. It’s roughly the principle of the soul transmigration belief, or of the horror movies featuring zombies, craving  for a transubstantiation into a real, flesh and bones  individual.

Well, IMO this is true for every piece of music, too. It  exists in its full, complete state only when executed by somebody. In this respect, every performance of a piece has a right of its own. No matter if played by gifted pianists or by a plain, inept amateur like me, the act itself of learning, playing a piece is a way to bring it to life, to make it real again.  

And a world populated only by perfect human beings, like the one the craziest eugenics exponents dreamed of,   would be  a frightening nightmare….

Yes!

[birba]

Luke 9:60

Call me dense but I still don't get it.  I mean I get it, but I don't get what it has to do with Feinberg and the question at hand.

[keyboardclass]

It's to do with costicina's
"a soul needs a living being to inhabit, not matter if a cat, a child, a beautiful women. It’s roughly the principle of the soul transmigration belief, or of the horror movies featuring zombies, craving  for a transubstantiation into a real, flesh and bones  individual."

Jesus, not that I'm any great fan of religion, is saying not all souls are quite as they seem - some are, have been and will always be dead.  I think sometimes there's nobody home - only a 'craving'.  I also think it's what George Romero is trying to say.

[pianowolfi]

Jesus, not that I'm any great fan of religion, is saying not all souls are quite as they seem - some are, have been and will always be dead.

Not that I'm a fan of religious discussions, but maybe it's fair to say that Jesus is one of my favorite "artists" and "composers", and as such I feel like like I'm studying him to some extent, and as far as I know he never said anything even remotely resembling your "quotation".

You might want to check your Urtext.

[general disarray]

 I think sometimes there's nobody home - only a 'craving'.  I also think it's what George Romero is trying to say.

The Buddha agrees with George Romero:


The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardour, pursuit of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.

[costicina]

OMG,  it was not  my intention to start a discussion on religions!!!

It was just a image that came to my mind, thinking of the way a piece is  brought into existence, so to speak, by any performance. It has more to do with the 'immortality' of art, if you want, or the way in which our memory can save the dead from a merciless oblivion.. the only form of immortality I believe does exist...
  I think I have worked too hard in the last weeks, I'm rambling....
     

[keyboardclass]

But I think the point is yes soul brings life to a work but then not everyone has one - cruel but fair!

[starstruck5]

Can I just say that few of us ever play music because we want to spend all our time in a room and just amuse ourselves -at some point we want to communicate what we feel through the music we play -ultimately we want to share the beauty we hope to create. Or we post a performance because we need help in improving, and the only way to do this, is to risk humiliation and scorn.  If everytime someone posted who was not an expert, was told -why should I listen to you, when I can listen to Agerich, or Arrau etc - -then that person isn't the person you should even want to be listening to you play.

Whoever would say this -my response is: Why should I want feedback from an arrogant elitist like you? . Thankfully, Pianostreet is what it is because of decent caring human beings like Birba and Marge -

I realise there could be a context in which the question is asked, as in the Bach thread in the Audition Room -which is a way of defending a position -but anyway.....

[pianowolfi]

Whoever would say this -my response is: Why should I want feedback from an arrogant elitist like you?

You are right. We just shouldn't care.

[keyboardclass]

Have you noticed all documentaries now start out by laying out the objectives?  What you're going to see and why?  I think I'd want that before I listened to anything in the audition room - What am I listening for?  Why?  It's how teachers observe lessons.  The first thing you ask is - what do you want me to see?

[costicina]

Poor old Bach, he always  turns out to be the most dangerous troublemaker here: a source of quarrels, misunderstandings, reproachs…

I myself had an unpleasant experience when a very respected forumeer quoted Lady Gaga as only comment to my daughter’s performance of a Bach’s piece .

Butcher any other composer, but hands off the Sublime!!!!! 

[pianowolfi]

Have you noticed all documentaries now start out by laying out the objectives?  What you're going to see and why?  I think I'd want that before I listened to anything in the audition room - What am I listening for?  Why?  It's how teachers observe lessons.  The first thing you ask is - what do you want me to see?

So "teachy" wants to be spoonfed? How cute.
As if any real piano teacher needed any advice beforehand, regarding how to listen to somebody, and why to listen  

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Why would we listen to you play when we can listen to Feinberg?

Why indeed.

Why would we listen to you when we can read Neuhaus, Sandor and others?

[keyboardclass]

So "teachy" wants to be spoonfed? How cute.
As if any real piano teacher needed any advice beforehand, regarding how to listen to somebody, and why to listen 

That's just how professional teachers do it.  Here's something from a random teaching site:

'Classroom observation needs to be both well organised and focused because watching well planned and complex lessons can be overwhelming. Both the reviewer and reviewee have to discuss the purpose of the observation in terms of, for example, what is being observed, the problems presented by the class and what the main objectives of the lesson are.

In other words there needs to be a focus for the observation. '

[pianowolfi]

Sure. He is a professional piano teacher who draws his wisdom from "a random teaching site" out of any context, of course. Be sure not to add any quotation sources, nor links. Et voilà the professional piano teacher (-statement) is complete.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

He's quite obviously a fraud. I've never met a teacher who asked me what I think he should be listening for, and wouldn't go back to one who did. For starters, if I know what he should be listening to, I'm quite capable of listening for it too! The best thing about a good teacher is that he hears what you DON'T know about.

[pianowolfi]

He's quite obviously a fraud. I've never met a teacher who asked me what I think he should be listening for, and wouldn't go back to one who did. For starters, if I know what he should be listening to, I'm quite capable of listening for it too! The best thing about a good teacher is that he hears what you DON'T know about.

Precisely!

[keyboardclass]

Deary me!  I'm talking about professional classroom observation.  There are strict standards and procedures. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I'm sure Liszt, Leschetizky and others began their lessons with a preamble as to what the students expected from them. Management-speak drivel.

Addendum: oh, the masterclasses I've attended didn't seem to do that either. How odd: they must be very unprofessional.

[keyboardclass]

Listen how you want.  I want to know what aspects the performer, as they've asked for an observation, wishes paid attention too and why it merits my attention.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I pity your pupils (assuming you actually have any).

[keyboardclass]

How sad.  So you've never started a lesson with - So, what are you going to show me today?  That hands over the ownership to the student.  It hands them the control. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

You clearly have very odd ideas about what consitutes tuition. Incidentally, you also appear to have comprehension problems as well, as your last comment, i.e.

How sad.  So you've never started a lesson with - So, what are you going to show me today?  That hands over the ownership to the student.  It hands them the control. 

appears to imply that you think I'm a teacher, whereas it should be obvious to such a gifted listener (lol) as yourself that my comments imply that my interactions with teaching have been as a student.

[pianowolfi]

I pity your pupils (assuming you actually have any).

It seems yes:

Done my yoga for the day.  I'm off to work - piano teaching, god help them!  Laters.

 

[keyboardclass]

You clearly have very odd ideas about what consitutes tuition. Incidentally, you also appear to have comprehension problems as well, as your last comment, i.e.  appears to imply that you think I'm a teacher,

I was letting you have the benefit of the doubt - you'd look pretty silly posting about how professional teachers go about their business otherwise.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I was letting you have the benefit of the doubt - you'd look pretty silly posting about how professional teachers go about their business otherwise.

Oddly, I do know how professional teachers go about their business. Being an observant sort of person I notice these things during lessons.. and it seems to me highly unlikely (having read some of your posts over the past few months) that you are in fact a professional teacher.

Your advice to perfect_pitch was of course absolutely outstanding in its depth and insight!

[keyboardclass]

whatever

[werq34ac]

(post deleted due to embarrassment of poster) 

[werq34ac]

Okay carefully, rereading EVERYTHING this time, new reply

And what I said about first lessons with a new teacher is still true. The teacher asks you, "what are you going to play for me today." In that respect, keyboardclass is right, the teacher is pretty much asking the student to show the teacher what he/she can do. ON THE OTHER HAND, the teacher is NOT asking for what he/she should be listening for. The teacher should know what to be listening for without having anyone tell them (unless they are a student teacher and their teacher of teaching teaches them what they should be listening for).


In general the pattern to be followed
1. Ask them what they will be playing about it
2. Listen to them play it whilst following along in the score
3. Tell them what they are doing well with the piece
4. Tell them what they are doing not so well with the piece
5. Work with them on what they are not doing well.

Just my experiences. And I think I'm going to delete my previous post.. that's a bit embarrassing..

[keyboardclass]

And you see nothing wrong with a teacher centered approach?  I read a post the other day by a student who was really pissed off that he'd practiced page 3 and 4 of a work but the teacher never got past 1 and 2 where he kept goofing up.  Don't you think an approach of "What would you like me to listen to?" have helped here?  And how often does that happen? - what you can really do well never gets an airing in the lesson.  What if the student's working on 3 pieces, exercises and scales/arps.  What's worng with the student choosing the order? - they do in the exam.  It's about taking responsibility for your own learning rather than paying up and just sitting there like a chump.

[werq34ac]

And you see nothing wrong with a teacher centered approach?  I read a post the other day by a student who was really pissed off that he'd practiced page 3 and 4 of a work but the teacher never got past 1 and 2 where he kept goofing up.  Don't you think an approach of "What would you like me to listen to?" have helped here?  And how often does that happen? - what you can really do well never gets an airing in the lesson.  What if the student's working on 3 pieces, exercises and scales/arps.  What's worng with the student choosing the order? - they do in the exam.  It's about taking responsibility for your own learning rather than paying up and just sitting there like a chump.

Well either way, the 1st and 2nd pages need work do they not? One does not go to a lesson hoping to impress a teacher. One goes to a lesson in hopes that they will improve. What makes a good teacher is not how impressed they are with their students. It's how they make their students better musicians.

As for coming to the lesson with pages 1 and 2 unprepared, that's the student's fault for not practicing isn't it? I mean of course, the student might just not have had the time to practice it, but then the student should have TOLD the teacher that they just didn't have the time. I think it's ridiculous that this student got pissed at his teacher because he was the one who came unprepared.

And although this is taking it a bit to an extreme, what if the student takes advantage of "what would you like me to listen to today?" The student would then play pages 3 and 4 for the teacher and sure the student would show the teacher how pages 3 and 4 were prepared and he'd receive some instruction on it, but what about pages 1 and 2? Ignored both by teacher and student because the STUDENT came unprepared.

Seriously in college, that will get you kicked out of a studio, coming to a lesson unprepared.

And as for the student, he should have just been straight up honest and said that he just didn't get around to practicing it. Whether the teacher gets mad depends on how reasonable a teacher is and whether the student was actually justified in not practicing due to lack of time. But hiding things from your teacher won't get you anywhere.

[j_menz]

Ahh, I love a thread that goes off track. We've covered religion and educational philosophy. Quite a feat! 

What I'd like to know, is why I should listen to Feinberg when I can play the bloody thing myself?

[costicina]

What I'd like to know, is why I should listen to Feinberg when I can play the bloody thing myself?

  ;DA standing ovation for you!!!!!

[perfect_pitch]

What I'd like to know, is why I should listen to Feinberg when I can play the bloody thing myself?

Oh, I laughed so hard when I read that. Thanks J Menz - you made my day. You're damn right.   

[nyiregyhazi]

And you see nothing wrong with a teacher centered approach?  I read a post the other day by a student who was really pissed off that he'd practiced page 3 and 4 of a work but the teacher never got past 1 and 2 where he kept goofing up.  Don't you think an approach of "What would you like me to listen to?" have helped here?  And how often does that happen? - what you can really do well never gets an airing in the lesson.  What if the student's working on 3 pieces, exercises and scales/arps.  What's worng with the student choosing the order? - they do in the exam.  It's about taking responsibility for your own learning rather than paying up and just sitting there like a chump.

Cut the bullshit comparisons and put like against like. When was the last time you started a lesson by asking a student why you should listen to their playing when you could hear a more accomplished pianist instead?

Comparing having the consideration to ask students if there is anything in particular they wish to work at with your rude and dismissive question is ludicrous. If you want to ask someone what they are trying to say as an individual, the way to frame the question is to say "what are you trying to say as an individual?"- without the pathetically condescending dismissal of your question. Incidentally, I didn't feel that you had anything to say for yourself musically, in a single one of your youtube films. Aside from the severe technical struggle, your videos show very little characterisation or musical interest. You are in no position to take a self-righteous tone about issues of soul- because a sensitive soul is no more in evidence in your own playing than it is in your rude manner towards others.

[jesc]

One goes to a lesson in hopes that they will improve. What makes a good teacher is not how impressed they are with their students. It's how they make their students better musicians.

I have this teacher who literally chooses the pieces I'm weak at for the next lesson (sometimes I'm given a break and asked to choose anything that needed polishing next meeting). When the lesson starts and I've played the whole piece, we jump to the passages that didn't sound well (I didn't play well). This goes on and on until there's not much criticism left. And I'm just talking about technique not the interpretation.

The method isn't fun, I'm not having fun with it TBH. But it made me better at pieces/passages I'm weak at.  

What I'd like to know, is why I should listen to Feinberg when I can play the bloody thing myself?

Spot on. But I'll also be honest and say, like "I do prefer listening to  Horowitz's and Hofmann's Chopin Scherzo 2 than my recording." (edit: especially against the recording I posted on the audition room if anyone's curious. My incompetence is totally obvious... bwahahaha. It's a sin to even compare it to them.) Still, for the most part, it is indeed more gratifying to play the thing yourself rather than just sitting there passively listening.

[keyboardclass]

Still, for the most part, it is indeed more gratifying to play the thing yourself rather than just sitting there passively listening.

Surely they're different gratifications?  The lack of respect genius often gets in these forums is very disappointing.  Everything gets dragged down to some real gross level.  Is that an American thing?

And I must say, some of you sure seem into some weird S&M thing lesson wise.

[j_menz]

Surely they're different gratifications?  The lack of respect genius often gets in these forums is very disappointing.  Everything gets dragged down to some real gross level.  Is that an American thing?

Feinberg wasn't a genius, he was a pianist (yes I know he was also a composer, but we haven't got onto his merits in that field here). He may have been a very good pianist, but he is certainly not above critical listening. Noone is.  You confuse respect with veneration; the latter being essentially uncritical and anathema to a proper appreciation of his worth.

For the record, I am not American (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Also, for the record, the only genius called Feinberg went under the pseudonym Larry Fine. Worked with the Howard brothers, Moe and Curly.  

[williampiano]

Surely they're different gratifications?  The lack of respect genius often gets in these forums is very disappointing.  Everything gets dragged down to some real gross level. Is that an American thing?

Why american? It seems that Americans (as myself) are a minority on this forum. I've noticed many more Europeans and Australians on here than Americans.

[werq34ac]

Surely they're different gratifications?  The lack of respect genius often gets in these forums is very disappointing.  Everything gets dragged down to some real gross level.  Is that an American thing?

And I must say, some of you sure seem into some weird S&M thing lesson wise.

S&M what's that? Anyway, yes they are different gratifications, but I would have to say that listening to an amazing performance of a piece you really love and actually playing it yourself, well  they really can't compare. While listening to the greats is gratifying, there's nothing quite like the experience of actually creating music. It's your own soul that is materializing into something physical.

Although yes, one can learn much from listening.

I have this teacher who literally chooses the pieces I'm weak at for the next lesson (sometimes I'm given a break and asked to choose anything that needed polishing next meeting). When the lesson starts and I've played the whole piece, we jump to the passages that didn't sound well (I didn't play well). This goes on and on until there's not much criticism left. And I'm just talking about technique not the interpretation.

The method isn't fun, I'm not having fun with it TBH. But it made me better at pieces/passages I'm weak at.  

Spot on. But I'll also be honest and say, like "I do prefer listening to  Horowitz's and Hofmann's Chopin Scherzo 2 than my recording." (edit: especially against the recording I posted on the audition room if anyone's curious. My incompetence is totally obvious... bwahahaha. It's a sin to even compare it to them.) Still, for the most part, it is indeed more gratifying to play the thing yourself rather than just sitting there passively listening.

Of course being yelled at isn't fun. But there's not much you can learn from praise, and a lot you can learn from criticism.


And I don't understand why you say geniuses don't get a lot of respect on this forum. I mean sure jmenz said "why should we listen to feinberg" that was obviously parodying the title of this thread. Can't take a little joke? Although since he doesn't actually consider Feinberg a genius that's his own personal opinion and personal opinions are hard to criticize. As for myself, having not heard much of Feinberg, I cannot give an opinion on the matter.

"What would you like me to listen to today" would not work in the example you gave because seriously, if a student said "listen to my 3rd and 4th page of this piece because only my 3rd and 4th page is good" then the teacher would most certainly ask "how bout the first two pages?" (perhaps not those exact words, but something similar to that)

[keyboardclass]

"why should we listen to feinberg" that was obviously parodying the title of this thread. Can't take a little joke? Although since he doesn't actually consider Feinberg a genius that's his own personal opinion and personal opinions are hard to criticize. As for myself, having not heard much of Feinberg, I cannot give an opinion on the matter.

The Partita isn't enough?

[j_menz]

The Partita isn't enough?

Hardly.

[werq34ac]

The Partita isn't enough?

What do you mean the partita. Which partita?

[ajspiano]

The lack of respect genius often gets in these forums is very disappointing.

I would rather hear a flawed version by someone that I know, than a flawless version by a well known pianist.

Its plainly obvious that there are 'genius' performers that do a better job than any average performer such as a student, forum member or friend of mine - but they don't deserve more respect than anyone else.

Really, the idea that I would want to listen to a well known pianist over a friend for a purely recreational listening experience is so completely against everything that I love about music that it borders on ridiculous.

Its a shared experience - and I can not share the experience with a performer that I can't either play with or talk to.


.....

So plainly, the answer is - "because I do not know or care for feinberg as a person"

^thats not to say there isnt value in observing a quality performer however.

[keyboardclass]

I would rather hear a flawed version by someone that I know, than a flawless version by a well known pianist.

Its plainly obvious that there are 'genius' performers that do a better job than any average performer such as a student, forum member or friend of mine - but they don't deserve more respect than anyone else.

Really, the idea that I would want to listen to a well known pianist over a friend for a purely recreational listening experience is so completely against everything that I love about music that it borders on ridiculous.

It's a shared experience - and I can not share the experience with a performer that I can't either play with or talk to.

I agree shared experience is all that counts.  Can you share experience with a composer you 'can't either play with or talk to'?  i.e. one you 'don't know or care for as a person'? 

As for genius, I'm referring to a quality that stands apart from the man, that is above the individual as in men of genius.  Do you find that in your friends?  My guess is it's not something many look for let alone find.

Does your Prime Minister deserve more respect?  Does Nelson Mandela?  Gandhi?  The Queen?  In my book respect is earned.