Should I hum or sing the notes before I try to sight read them? [Beginner]

[nickadams]

I am an adult beginner trying to teach myself piano with the "Paul Harris Improve Your Sight Reading" books and the "Four Star Sight Reading and Ear Tests" books.

I follow all the instructions in the books and use a metronome (varying tempo between 60-72 bpm depending on the piece), but I was wondering...

should I sing or hum the notes aloud before I play them or just try to hear the sounds in my head? Also, I cannot sing the notes that I read accurately unless I first play the beginning note and then sing every interval up to the next note..     So if I have a C skipping to an F, I have to first play the C and then hum my way up the C major scale to the F. And if I have an A skipping to a D then I play the A, then play the C below it and hum the C major scale all the way up to the A and then all the way to the D and then I will know what the D will sound like.


Is it bad that I always have to hum/sing/mentally hear the C major scale to find out what intervals are going to sound like? I even use the C major scale to find out intervals when the piece is in the key of G or F...   And often the actual note sounds different than what I was expecting even though I tried to ascend or descend to it using the C major scale. This is especially problematic when there are sharps and flats present...





Thanks for all replies!



EDIT: I was also wondering if you guys think working through the "Four Star" and "Paul Harris" books is enough to self-teach piano or should I be doing other books as well? Recommendations?

[iansinclair]

Probably not, as it will slow you down -- at best -- or make your playing uneven.  That said, however, you should work -- if you hum or sing -- at learning what the various intervals sound like, and be able to hum or sing a specific interval (e.g. a fourth or whatever) without humming or singing the intervening notes.  You should also, in my view, work on being able to identify the various intervals when they are played, either sequentially or in chords.

[nickadams]

bump 4 more opinions 

[zoecalgary]

Nick - I'm no expert at this. But I can tell you that my teacher said I should hum to hear the various intervals and hear the direction of the melody when I'm doing melody playback or interval identification.  In sight reading she suggested I look over the piece quickly looking for the key signature, time signature, general direction of the notes, any changes in hand positions, and any spots where the rhythm changes (ie. going from quarter to eighth notes), so that I am not surprised when those notes come up when I am playing. I may hum the piece to myself (not for tonal accuracy) just up/down so I can get a feel for what it will sound like I will be playing.

I don't consider myself a singer nor do I sing and so I haven't really done the humming in the interval studies because I'm afraid I would get this wrong. But I am really struggling hearing intervals and accurately playing back simple melodies so yesterday I tried humming them and I think I was getting them right. So for interval identification and melody playback I will try doing more humming as I think that will help me. For sight reading I use the above tips and so far that seems to work for me. 

I'm guessing humming as you're playing may cause some confusion but humming it out to yourself before you play is not a bad idea I think.

[timothy42b]

I'm not familiar with that program.

If the notes are monotonic then yes of course you should hum.  Later on you can hum silently and listen inside your head.

If the notes are in a chord, don't hum, you'll strain something.  Unless you have a background in Mongolian throat singing.

But:  you do want to get away from that scale singing as fast as possible.  You've memorized the intervals in the scale, whole and half steps.  Now you need to get the other intervals in your brain as well.  It is just as easy, and just as hard, to sing do-fa as do-re.  The skill is identical.  The only difference is that you've practiced one and not the other.  So no, don't sing C-d-e-F, sing C-F. 

As soon as you learn to sing accurately not only seconds but thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths you will be sightsinging well using the interval method.  That's not the only method nor even the best but it is an essential step. 

[nickadams]

Nick - I'm no expert at this. But I can tell you that my teacher said I should hum to hear the various intervals and hear the direction of the melody when I'm doing melody playback or interval identification.  In sight reading she suggested I look over the piece quickly looking for the key signature, time signature, general direction of the notes, any changes in hand positions, and any spots where the rhythm changes (ie. going from quarter to eighth notes), so that I am not surprised when those notes come up when I am playing. I may hum the piece to myself (not for tonal accuracy) just up/down so I can get a feel for what it will sound like I will be playing.

Wow thanks that is some great advice.

I'm guessing humming as you're playing may cause some confusion but humming it out to yourself before you play is not a bad idea I think.

k I won't hum as I play

I'm not familiar with that program.

If the notes are monotonic then yes of course you should hum.  Later on you can hum silently and listen inside your head.

If the notes are in a chord, don't hum, you'll strain something.  Unless you have a background in Mongolian throat singing.

But:  you do want to get away from that scale singing as fast as possible.  You've memorized the intervals in the scale, whole and half steps.  Now you need to get the other intervals in your brain as well.  It is just as easy, and just as hard, to sing do-fa as do-re.  The skill is identical.  The only difference is that you've practiced one and not the other.  So no, don't sing C-d-e-F, sing C-F.

thanks a lot for your response timothy42b. How should I make sure I sing the right notes for example on C-F interval? Should I play the C to hear what it sounds like, and then sing the C and try to sing the F? Or should I play C and then F and then sing C-F after I've heard what it sounds like?

As soon as you learn to sing accurately not only seconds but thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths you will be sightsinging well using the interval method.  That's not the only method nor even the best but it is an essential step.

So what do you think is the best method to sight read?

[zoecalgary]

Nick I forgot to say I am using the 4 star book as well. I really like the format of this book. A small exercise for each day of the week. I think it's format is excellent!!  I am in the level 4 book.

Also for other books for learning piano have you checked into any of the method books from Alfreds or Faber? I'm not sure what level you are at? How long have you played?

[timothy42b]

How to sing C to F:

Set metronome to 80.

Play quarter notes C F C F.

Now sing quarter notes C F C F (repeat many) while playing off beat eighth notes in exact rhythm C F C F (eighth rest eighth note eighth rest eighth note)  You must do "forced choice" with immediate check. 

Repeat until very solid.  Wait one minute, do again.  Wait one hour, do again.  Wait one day, do again. 

Move on to D-G.  Get all your fourths down well.  The first one might take 100 or 1000
runthroughs but they quickly get easier. 

Add fifths, major and minor thirds.  You already have scales. 

This is intervallic sightreading which does not take into consideration where you are in the key signature or chord.  You add that later. 

[nickadams]

How to sing C to F:

Set metronome to 80.

Play quarter notes C F C F.

k i understand this, but...

Now sing quarter notes C F C F (repeat many) while playing off beat eighth notes in exact rhythm C F C F (eighth rest eighth note eighth rest eighth note)  You must do "forced choice" with immediate check.

... what does this mean? Does this mean:
first, sing a quarter note C
then, play an eighth note C
then, rest for an eighth rest
then, sing a quarter note F
then, play an eighth note F
then rest for an eighth rest

... and repeat?

What does "forced choice with immediate check" mean? Does it mean like I am forced to  try to choose the right note to sing when I sing the C, and then I immediately check it by playing an 8th note C,  then I rest an eighth rest and am forced to try to choose the right note to sing for a quarter note F, and then i immediately check it by playing an eighth note F?[/quote]

Repeat until very solid.  Wait one minute, do again.  Wait one hour, do again.  Wait one day, do again. 

Move on to D-G.  Get all your fourths down well.  The first one might take 100 or 1000
runthroughs but they quickly get easier. 

Add fifths, major and minor thirds.  You already have scales. 

This is intervallic sightreading which does not take into consideration where you are in the key signature or chord.  You add that later. 

K your advice sounds good but I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. And unfortunately I only kind of have the C major scale down but I'm not so good with the other major scales and definitely not the minor scales. 


I really appreciate the advice timothy42b!





@ zoecalgary: I have been dabbling around at the piano off and on for over a year but in terms of skill I am a complete beginner. Do you recommend the alfred or faber book or what in addition to the paul harris and four star books i'm already using?

[zoecalgary]

Nick - I am not familiar with the Paul Harris books so I can't comment on those. But I think either Faber or Alfred's would be good. Often those that do one supplement their learning with the other. I really like the Faber supplementary materials. There are series called Pretime Piano, Gin Time Piano, Big Time Piano. I have gotten my son a book from the first set and he found the songs fun and challenging and they sounded nice. I have several from the other 2 series and like the arrangements lots as well.

My son is using the Alfreds nethod material and I find it very well thought out and organized. My husband has been dabbling through my sons book lately and he said he like it too.

When I first got Into piano last year I borrowed many of these books from the library to get a feel for them.  Alfreds had an adult oriented book but I think the kids books can be good too if you can ignore the pictures. My husband likes them as each topic is well introduced.

See if you can borrow these from your local library or go browse on a music store and these and other methods. I'm sure you would find something you like.

[timothy42b]

k i understand this, but...

... what does this mean? Does this mean:
first, sing a quarter note C
then, play an eighth note C
then, rest for an eighth rest
then, sing a quarter note F
then, play an eighth note F
then rest for an eighth rest

... and repeat?

What does "forced choice with immediate check" mean? Does it mean like I am forced to  try to choose the right note to sing when I sing the C, and then I immediately check it by playing an 8th note C,  then I rest an eighth rest and am forced to try to choose the right note to sing for a quarter note F, and then i immediately check it by playing an eighth note F?

K your advice sounds good but I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. And unfortunately I only kind of have the C major scale down but I'm not so good with the other major scales and definitely not the minor scales. 


I really appreciate the advice timothy42b!





@ zoecalgary: I have been dabbling around at the piano off and on for over a year but in terms of skill I am a complete beginner. Do you recommend the alfred or faber book or what in addition to the paul harris and four star books i'm already using?

Sorry, my explanation could be misinterpreted. 

No need to take it beyond C major for now.  Once you get the intervals in your head they generalize to some extent.

You have succeeded in memorizing two intervals, the major second and the minor second, by playing the scale. 

Now I'm suggesting adding a couple more intervals, the fourth and fifth.  You don't have them memorized now, you are finding them by adding up the scalewise intervals that you do have memorized.  Well, you can memorize the fourth EXACTLY the same as you did the scale, and then you can sing them directly without having to work your way up.  Lots faster. 

Does this mean:
first, sing a quarter note C
then, play an eighth note C
then, rest for an eighth rest
then, sing a quarter note F
then, play an eighth note F
then rest for an eighth rest

No.  Just goes to show, I knew what i meant, but that didn't mean I said it!

I want you to sing a quarter note C, and while holding it, play an eighth note C.  I want you to do this in strict rhythm, with the metronome.  If 80 is too fast try 60 or 40, doesn't matter, as long as you are staying "in time."  So it would be as if you had two staffs, the top one for your vocals where you sing quarter notes, the bottom one for the piano where you play one eighth rest AND one eighth note for every quarter note you sing.  The top staff would have quarter quarter quarter quarter forever, and the bottom staff would have eighth rest eighth note eighth rest eighth note forever. 

Forced choice means you have to guess, and have to guess on time.  That speeds learning.  Immediate check means you hear the correct note an eighth note space later, so you know if you did it correctly. 

[j_menz]

Gin Time Piano

That's the one for me. 

On the singing of intervals, I would suggest that it is only useful if it helps you "hear" them in your head.  Some people learn differently (and some people have different singing abilities - I'm a shocker  ).  The advantage of knowing the intervals by sound for sightreading is that you are prewarned about what they will sound like, and you get instant feedback if you get them wrong, otherwise just knowing the finger positions for them will get you through.

Of course, some exam programmes have this recognition/singing thing as a requirement.

[ajspiano]

As a child I was initially taught to recognise intervals with songs -

C to F is a perfect 4th - it exists as the 1st 2 notes of "Auld Lang Syne"
C to G (perfect 5th) can be recognised by twinkle twinkle little star, or "the last post" (do people outside australia know the last post?) - what about that movie theme, space odyssey or something?

In any case they need to be songs than you know well, so its better you choose them yourself if possible.

[nickadams]

Sorry, my explanation could be misinterpreted. 

No need to take it beyond C major for now.  Once you get the intervals in your head they generalize to some extent.

You have succeeded in memorizing two intervals, the major second and the minor second, by playing the scale. 

Now I'm suggesting adding a couple more intervals, the fourth and fifth.  You don't have them memorized now, you are finding them by adding up the scalewise intervals that you do have memorized.  Well, you can memorize the fourth EXACTLY the same as you did the scale, and then you can sing them directly without having to work your way up.  Lots faster. 

No.  Just goes to show, I knew what i meant, but that didn't mean I said it!

I want you to sing a quarter note C, and while holding it, play an eighth note C.  I want you to do this in strict rhythm, with the metronome.  If 80 is too fast try 60 or 40, doesn't matter, as long as you are staying "in time."  So it would be as if you had two staffs, the top one for your vocals where you sing quarter notes, the bottom one for the piano where you play one eighth rest AND one eighth note for every quarter note you sing.  The top staff would have quarter quarter quarter quarter forever, and the bottom staff would have eighth rest eighth note eighth rest eighth note forever. 

Forced choice means you have to guess, and have to guess on time.  That speeds learning.  Immediate check means you hear the correct note an eighth note space later, so you know if you did it correctly. 

Oh okay! But I am supposed to play intervals though right? Not just all quarter note C's?

sorry i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed 

[timothy42b]

Oh okay! But I am supposed to play intervals though right? Not just all quarter note C's?

sorry i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed 

I am recommending that you play exactly what you sing, but play just a hair late, so that you cannot cheat.  I am suggesting that at your level, playing exactly one eighth note behind what you sing might be effective.  This is not the only way to do it, and it may not be the best.  You might try it and let us know how it works.

You can also do this with melodic lines, singing and playing, in rhythm, just a bit behind.