What do you guys do to strengthen (I really mean relax) your fingers?

[ajspiano]

I don't think werq34ac is unconcerned with the fact that there is a difference..  more so he sees no need to quantify it with a gram weight..  which I think is a fairly reasonable perspective given that the adaptation to differences is done by 'feel' - not by measuring the keys and calculating what changes to make in your technique.

[ajspiano]

I don't think it's wrong to think of strength myself. It's just important to remember that strength is not acquired by hard impacts and that strength cannot compensate for inefficient transmission of energy through the key.

Its seems this is becoming more and more about how each of us perceive the word "strength"..

I'm curious as to how OP perceives it, and what exactly was originally meant by strengthening of the fingers and what is the desired outcome exactly..

Try dealing with a digital piano with lightly weighted keys then having piano lessons on a piano with god knows how many Kgs the keys are.

Interestingly though - if you have the facility to change the touch on your instrument you'll find that you can make the same set of keys feel very heavy or very light..  This is particularly evident when I mess around with a software piano, more so than with my digitals on board sound/settings.

[anote1532]

:'(It is a full, silent piano keyboard with variable key resistance." Do you have a name for this?

[keyboardclass]

I don't eschew use of arm-weight.

So, this month we're using arm-weight?  You won't then be doing the under-the-table-look-no-arm-weight-Fraser-demonstration then?  Is that out with Fraser as well?

[werq34ac]

And even IF the weight needed to depress a key IS 50g, it takes more than 50 grams to actually play a note due to how the piano works (although it's different on an electric). Have you ever tried playing a note very softly and you ended up not making any sound at all? One is throwing the hammers, pushing them.


And yes, I see absolutely no reason to put a number on this so called touchweight, although I do understand that different pianos feel "heavier" than others.


And I forgot to continue on in the no muscles in fingers thing. The point is, since there aren't any muscles there, wouldn't it be pointless to strengthen your fingers? I've heard many times that your fingers are just about as hard as a carrot and the only thing keeping you from biting them off is the pain. It seems to me that strengthening one's fingers is a waste of time considering that minuscule effort it takes to play a note.

[nyiregyhazi]

So, this month we're using arm-weight?  You won't then be doing the under-the-table-look-no-arm-weight-Fraser-demonstration then?  Is that out with Fraser as well?

I use armweight where I consider it appropriate and I avoid it where I don't. One post that I'll soon be writing will illustrate how people who talk about the weight of the arm for fingerwork are almost certainly doing the exact same thing as those who speak of a floating arm. There's a state that relates to the key points of both that I have a very simple exercise for perceiving.

While I am opposed to referencing arm weight as the energy source in situations where it cannot be (and using weight with either a braced or collapsing hand) I have nothing against its use. Sometimes I've been experimenting with lifting my hand virtually above my head like Rubinstein, before dropping it down. Understanding hand movements better makes it possible to do this without impact.

[ajspiano]

And even IF the weight needed to depress a key IS 50g

No idea how reliable this is..  but if it is, then clearly this stuff matters to top performers, so in theory should matter to anyone who wants to be a top performer?

"Horowitz often told his technician that the keys should go down if
> he simply blew on them. To achieve this,{Franz}  Mohr found it
> necessary to file down the sizes of the hammers. Horowitz required a
> precisely 44 grams of key resistance, but full-size hammers were too
> heavy for an action of this gram-weight: the average Steinway is
> weighted to approximately 50-55 grams...."

I also found another site that stated steinwey's current standard is 52g, tapered to 47g in the treble.

...Though at this point i think its debatable that such specifics really have much to do with the OP question.


__________
EDIT:
Although - perhaps one might draw a conclusion that horiwitz's advice wouldve been, dont wast time strengthening your fingers (or shall we say "the muscles that control the fingers movement"), play on a lighter piano.

^not that I see any reason to think that we should all mindlessly copy him without further thought though.

[keyboardclass]

Agree 100%.  The only reason I can see for heavy hammers is to be heard by a larger crowd.  Who (of us) needs that?

[werq34ac]

Agree 100%.  The only reason I can see for heavy hammers is to be heard by a larger crowd.  Who (of us) needs that?

Well actually, some pianists don't use steinways when playing a concerto because the orchestra might drown them out. They feel they need a louder piano.

[keyboardclass]

Well actually, some pianists don't use steinways when playing a concerto because the orchestra might drown them out. They feel they need a louder piano.

Basically I'm saying you can cut your cloth according to your requirements.

[nyiregyhazi]

Agree 100%.  The only reason I can see for heavy hammers is to be heard by a larger crowd.  Who (of us) needs that?

It's not a matter of whether we "need" louder hammers. It's a matter of whether a pianist happens to reside in the priviliged position of being able to select a piano with a light action whenever performing. The only people who can afford to be choosy about action weight are a minority of world-class performers and those who simply never do any performing (and can hence cop out of bothering to learn to cope with the reality of standard concert grands). Everyone else has to learn to make do.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Agree 100%.  The only reason I can see for heavy hammers is to be heard by a larger crowd.  Who (of us) needs that?

Really heavier hammers = louder sound? 

I didn't know that,

[keyboardclass]

The only people who can afford to be choosy about action weight are a minority of world-class performers and those who simply never do any performing (and can hence cop out of bothering to learn to cope with the reality of standard concert grands). Everyone else has to learn to make do.

Why compromise your art for some crazy macho attitude?  To be honest the only difference is that you have to play a little slower.  The advantage is you have more control - playing a light action successfully requires a hell of a lot more skill.  But honestly touch-weight is hardly the biggest problem when I think about all the crap I've had to perform on over the years.

[ajspiano]

Why compromise your art for some crazy macho attitude?

I would love to take my customised piano everywhere.

however - right now I can't afford any worthwhile piano, let alone a customised steinway - and I certainly couldn't financially justify carting said non-existent piano to gigs.

As N. said - I'll have to learn to deal with the venues piano..

[keyboardclass]

As N. said - I'll have to learn to deal with the venues piano..

That goes without saying but the way to deal with it isn't necessarily to go out and buy a concert weight grand.

[nyiregyhazi]

Why compromise your art for some crazy macho attitude?  To be honest the only difference is that you have to play a little slower.  The advantage is you have more control - playing a light action successfully requires a hell of a lot more skill.  But honestly touch-weight is hardly the biggest problem when I think about all the crap I've had to perform on over the years.

So, learning to deal with pianos that you'll have to convey your art through in concert venues is a crazy macho attitude? Whereas deliberately doing all your practise on a very light action (under the blasé assumption that you'll be able to cope with the heavier action of the regular concert grands that reside in concert venues, regardless) is an example of pragmatism perhaps? Stop trolling. Nobody in the world could possibly be dumb enough to genuinely think that such a transparent reversal of accurate logic makes the slightest bit of sense.

An additional issue is that's it's simply a nonsense to say that light actions are more sensitive and heavy ones give more control. It depends entirely on the individual piano. Often, light pianos have a small range and require severe exaggeration not to sound generically even and lifeless. Conversely a heavy action may require overwhelmingly great sensitivity if you want a good ppp and control over voicing. Not all light action pianos respond like Horowitz's. You're just trying to make up excuses for why you prefer light actions (that don't acknowledge physical difficulty).

[keyboardclass]

You're just trying to make up excuses for why you prefer light actions (that don't acknowledge physical difficulty).

What a thing to say about Horowitz!

[nyiregyhazi]

What a thing to say about Horowitz!

If you have nothing topical to say, instead of trolling the forum with one line witlesscisms, there's no need to post. Horowitz proved himself by building a career as a young virtuoso who could play the pianos provided to him- not as a delusional amateur who struggled to play short of excerpts of pieces on any piano. A pianist who plays virtuoso repertoire fluently on all pianos is in a position to prefer specially light actions. Amateurs who cannot do so are in a position to say they don't have the technique to play regular concert instruments with comfort- unless suffering the most ludicrously unwarranted delusions of grandeur.

[keyboardclass]

You can attempt to bully all you like with calls of troll and denigrating my playing - it adds nothing to your argument, just shows what a nasty piece of work you are.

A pianist who plays virtuoso repertoire fluently on all pianos is in a position to prefer specially light actions.  

 So, only someone of the stature of Horowitz is allowed to choose a lighter touch-weight? I don't suppose you can see the craziness in that viewpoint?

[nyiregyhazi]

 So, only someone of the stature of Horowitz is allowed to choose a lighter touch-weight? I don't suppose you can see the craziness in that viewpoint?

Only someone who has proven that they are fully up to coping with bog-standard concert instruments is in a position to claim a preference- as opposed to possession of inadequate technique to adequately deal with a concert piano. Personally, I've performed works like Liszt's sonata and Rachmaninoff 2nd concerto in public. However, I know full well that the fact I find lighter actions easier is nothing but a reflection on the fact that my technique has room for improvement. If you do not have the basic level of humility/self-awareness to acknowledge the same about yourself, you are not living on the same planet as the rest of us (in part due to the simple fact that you evidently are not someone who either plays advanced repertoire in public or has the faintest grasp of what a pianist who does so needs to be capable of to get by- hence my classification of yourself as a troll, who uses the internet to fantasise about non-existant expertise).

It would be alright if it were an innocent fantasy, but when you write atrociously irrational advice about light actions (as if pianists will magically learn to play regular instruments without working on them) you make abundantly clear that your advice is about protecting your fantasies- before offering useful advice to others.

[keyboardclass]

Only someone who has proven that they are fully up to coping with bog-standard concert instruments is in a position to claim a preference

More craziness.

[nyiregyhazi]

More craziness.

Quite. Anything that would shatter your fantasies is "craziness". And the concept of a pianist learning to play the instruments that he will have to play, if he has the faintest ambitions of playing in public is an example of machismo (whereas practising on a specially lightened action in order to cop out of dealing with the real-life instruments that concerts will routinely take place on is a great idea). And compare your preference to that of Horowitz, as if you are on a level playing field technically and can bring your own Steinway to gigs (that you do not perform). Just dole out whatever irrational constructions it takes not to burst the bubble of your fantasies...

[keyboardclass]

Here's a question for anyone who hasn't switched off - Given the choice from two expensive grands, one - you absolutely love its response but has a lighter than concert hall touch-weight or one your not so comfortable with but has concert hall touch-weight.  Which would you choose?

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's a question for anyone who hasn't switched off - Given the choice from two expensive grands, one - you absolutely love its response but has a lighter than concert hall touch-weight or one your not so comfortable with but has concert hall touch-weight.  Which would you choose?

The qualifying factor is whether the pianist has ambitions as a performing artist or not. Anyone who does not can reasonably take the easier piano and enjoy it. Anyone who needs to cope with standard concert grands in public (or has intentions of doing so later down the line) should look for a piano that is adequately weighted AND responsive. They would serve themselves most poorly if they did not do so.

The issue is not which piano would be selected. It's whether a person would be so selfish as to attempt to recommend a super-light action to a young pianist who has ambitions of playing in public- simply for the sake of not having to admit to themself that their own preference exists solely out of the fact that they are not an advanced player and do not truthfully possess the technique to control regular actions adequately. And that they do not have to do so- due to not being in a position of performing advanced repertoire on the regular concert pianos that all concert performers MUST be able to handle. A person who gives poor advice that is fuelled by helping themself to live in denial is totally out of order.

[keyboardclass]

Anyone who needs to cope with standard concert grands in public (or has intentions of doing so later down the line) should look for a piano that is adequately weighted AND responsive.

So neither in your case.  What a waste.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I would by far prefer to practice on a piano with a heavier action prior to a concert (and always do, if possible). If you accustom yourself to a piano with a light action, it's fine if the concert piano is light, but if the concert piano is heavy, you will not only have problems of control, but it also induces fatigue very rapidly, especially in technically demanding repertoire - you may even have to reconsider all your tempi. This can be an absolute nightmare and you do, imo, risk causing injury. If you practice on a heavy action piano and the concert piano is light, you will have initial problems of control, but you should be able to adapt quickly if you have decent touch: the process of adapting shouldn't take more a few minutes warmup unless the piano is quite excruciatingly light, in which case you just have to accept that dynamic control is going to be a problem and may have to consider using the una corda for help.

So in summary, going from one type of action to another may cause you problems in controlling dynamics, but at least when going from heavy to light, you aren't going to be exhausted by the end!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Am I wasting my time with scales and Czerny?

This thread didn't go exactly the direction I wanted it to go, but that's okay!

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I wonder if what you are after is not so much "strength" as "stamina".

 
+1

[virtuoso80]

Are you under the impression one plays piano with the fingers?

Seriously, I used to put myself through finger 'exercises' like I would do exercises at the gym, with the goal of tiring myself out and building muscle. It was a waste of time, and risks injury. What I've found is that: If your hands are fatiguing significantly, then you're playing wrong, retaining stiffness, and not using your arm enough. On a heavy-action piano, this becomes more challenging, but even better to practice.

What I used to do, which isn't ideal, but worked to help me to understand was: I would play 'wrong' for a while, tire my hands out, and that would force me to use my arm more if I wanted to keep playing. As for Czerny, even though he seems 'finger-y', you can still apply arm motion to any of his passages.

[keyboardclass]

+1

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I've finally discovered the question that I needed to ask!

How in the world do you manage to relax your hands!  It's so frustrating trying to relax your hands, wrist, fingers without actually tensing them up! 

For those of you guys who can actually manage to do this, it must be great knowing that nothing is too difficult for you to play huh?

[ajspiano]

How in the world do you manage to relax your hands!  It's so frustrating trying to relax your hands, wrist, fingers without actually tensing them up!

Describe in detail your playing action from finger to shoulder (and everything in between) during a scale like legato passage. Decide whether you think what you doing is good or bad and give reasons for that.

Consider which motions are resulting in excess tension in your hand/wrist - don't do them.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Describe in detail your playing action from finger to shoulder (and everything in between) during a scale like legato passage.

That's a good question because I don't know lol

[ajspiano]

That's a good question because I don't know lol

you need to do 2 things.

Attempt to describe it yourself through observation.

Get a pedagogical reference.

____________

Ask yourself questions like..

do I lift my fingers? if yes, do i lift them all at once or one at a time? does any other part of my body move when I lift my fingers? Where on the keys do I place my finger tips, as in close to the edge, closer to the black keys, inside the black keys, and how does this effect my playing facility? Why do I choose to place my fingers this way? if the placement changes, how do I change it? do I bring my whole arm forward (from the shoulder) or do i reach out by extending my fingers? Which is better? does my wrist stay in line with my arm or do i twist it left or right when I try to reach a black key with my thumb?

As I move up the keyboard, do I push my whole upper arm out with it so that my arm stays at right angles to the keys, or does my arm turn and go at angles to the keys? which is better and why?

[nyiregyhazi]

I've finally discovered the question that I needed to ask!

How in the world do you manage to relax your hands!  It's so frustrating trying to relax your hands, wrist, fingers without actually tensing them up!  

This is where the (seeming) paradox lies. In order to relax, you need to work the USEFUL action. If your fingers don't work well AFTER sounding keys, all kinds of emergency compensations come in- such as fingers randomly jutting out at weird angles or general stiffnesses. I've recently returned to working at a post that will illustrate the simplest style of maintained finger action that permits the rest of the hand and arm to relax. Basically, it's an action of straightening the finger- to create a very light yet clear contact with the keybed. When the hand starts sagging, it also starts having to tense up. When the supporting fingers act in the right way (without either collapsing or being subjected to large arm pressure) everything else can let go. When they start sagging, your hand has to clench into the kind of awkward positions seen in keyboardclass' Grieg video- simply to avoid everything collapsing into a big palm cluster.

Basically, if you don't exploit the useful activities (via positive intent at performing them), general intent to subtract efforts is doomed. It leaves your subconscious doing whatever emergency seizures it takes not to fall into/off the piano altogether. Before you can think of subtraction, first you have to develop the beneficial activities that make it possible. I was held back for many years by being more focussed on letting go of things than on the positive actions. This actively encouraged me to release the useful activities- hence perpetuating the occurrence of  uncontrolled tensions.

[keyboardclass]

I've finally discovered the question that I needed to ask!

How in the world do you manage to relax your hands!  It's so frustrating trying to relax your hands, wrist, fingers without actually tensing them up! 

For those of you guys who can actually manage to do this, it must be great knowing that nothing is too difficult for you to play huh?

It can takes years to learn how to relax your hands.  I found it was important to 'allow' my metacarpal bone structure to relax.  Once relaxed, you can then add tension where required.  The thing to get into your head is that you cannot do relaxing it's a not doing, an 'allowing'.  Anyone whose says you can achieve it by doing it this way, or that way, is leading you up the garden path. 

[nyiregyhazi]

It can takes years to learn how to relax your hands.  I found it was important to 'allow' my metacarpal bone structure to relax.  Once relaxed, you can then add tension where required.  The thing to get into your head is that you cannot do relaxing it's a not doing, an 'allowing'.

Yes- but only once you've created a situation where is physically possible to so. Once that has happened, you can begin 'allowing'. A good level of relaxation is not difficult. All it takes is a quick stint in the sauna. From that point on its about ensuring that what you put in contributes to the possibility of relaxing other parts- so your muscles are not forced to keep balance by any old emergency measures. The more you understand what actions are actively beneficial, the more it becomes possible to release the compensations. The single worst thing is to miss the balancing actions that allow relaxation to occur without deformations. To dangle the other fingers from the knuckles, whichever from finger played last needs to be balancing the knuckles. If it doesn't you can guarantee a tense hand.

[keyboardclass]

A good level of relaxation is not difficult. All it takes is a quick stint in the sauna.

I'll assume that's an attempt at humour.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'll assume that's an attempt at humour.

Not in the least. A healthy person can get their hands comfortably relaxed with ease. Ever heard of someone getting tendinitis from sitting in a sofa all day? The problems with piano playing lie in controlling the actions that adapt from this initial state and ensuring that they are productive. When sustained notes are kept by drooping fingers, the whole hand must stiffen not to collapse. This sends the effort totally outside of control- hence unstoppable tensions.

There's a very simple exercise that shows how dependent relaxation is on the useful actions. While keeping one note depressed raise all the other fingers lightly and then slowly release until they hang from the knuckles (but don't let the balancing finger permit the knuckles to droop!) concentrate on ensuring the finger that is keeping a key down remains stable, without stiffening. This exercise very quickly develops a feel for the balancing activities, without which non-playing fingers are totally incapable of hang freely.

Until a person understands how to perform this basic balancing activity, intent to relax the hand is exactly what prevents there from being any hope of doing so. The positive action has to come before the subtraction of unwanted efforts can occur.

[keyboardclass]

Not in the least. A healthy person can get their hands comfortably relaxed with ease.

Why ever did Edmund Jacobson (a doctor) write You Must Relax.  What a waste of his time when he could have been sat on his sofa!

[nyiregyhazi]

Why ever did Edmund Jacobson (a doctor) write You Must Relax.  What a waste of his time when he could have been sat on his sofa!

I didn't say that the everyday starting point cannot be improved upon. How about a worthwhile argument relating to the points I made- rather than a lazy strawman misattribution? The point is that it's only while playing that people have real problems. It's easy to be comfortable away from playing (unless there are serious issues). That means the difficulty is not in making things relaxed enough for comfort. It's in creating situations where it is POSSIBLE for those parts to relax, while playing- due to use of beneficial actions.

[keyboardclass]

It's in creating situations where it is POSSIBLE for those parts to relax, while playing- due to use of beneficial actions.

And this is where you always go wrong.  It is not possible to do yourself out of tension.  It's the doing that's the whole problem.  Relaxing is about not doing, not doing a different way.

[nyiregyhazi]

And this is where you always go wrong.  It is not possible to do yourself out of tension.  It's the doing that's the whole problem.  Relaxing is about not doing, not doing a different way.

So tell a guy whose head is angled at a right angle to relax his neck- without first using his muscles to put himself upright. If it were hard to relax the hands we'd spend all day with stiff hands. It isn't. It's hard to remain in a situation where it is POSSIBLE for muscles to be relaxed- and the situation is determined by the ACTIONS performed. Just as you can't relax the neck without using particular muscles to sit straight, you can't relax the hand unless it's balanced so as not to collapse in the keys upon release. If you are not actively keeping the knuckles raised (with the fingers that are depressing keys at the time) the other fingers cannot fully relax. The useful action must come first for release to follow.

[ajspiano]

And this is where you always go wrong.  It is not possible to do yourself out of tension.  It's the doing that's the whole problem.  Relaxing is about not doing, not doing a different way.

^ the tension is almost always a result of a particular action. The tension WILL NOT OCCUR if you do not do the primary action that is causing it, and it is possible to adjust your movement at the piano as such that you do not cause tension in the first place.

It is infinitely better to do that than it is to bang your head against a wall trying to relax while performing a motion that directly causes the tenseness in your body.

And - I would strongly argue that when a pianist eventually learns to relax at tempo in whatever passage he/she is struggling with, they will not have learnt to "not tense" - rather they will have stumbled upon a motion that does not cause tension. They will also "think" that they learnt to not tense, and as a result perpetuate the inefficient method.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

There's a very simple exercise that shows how dependent relaxation is on the useful actions. While keeping one note depressed raise all the other fingers lightly and then slowly release until they hang from the knuckles (but don't let the balancing finger permit the knuckles to droop!) concentrate on ensuring the finger that is keeping a key down remains stable, without stiffening. This exercise very quickly develops a feel for the balancing activities, without which non-playing fingers are totally incapable of hang freely.

Do you think you could explain that a little better?

I think I get what you're saying, but I don't think I understand completely maybe?

Maybe you have a video?

But yeah I'm gonna try going to the steam room now!

[nyiregyhazi]

Do you think you could explain that a little better?

I think I get what you're saying, but I don't think I understand completely maybe?

Maybe you have a video?

But yeah I'm gonna try going to the steam room now!

Basically, the main point is that the balancing finger stands very tall and that the arm does not press. Lifting the other fingers will test the balancing action of the finger. Once you have felt how to make that finger stable, while the others move (with a sense of extending the balancing finger) they are free to dangle in a completely functional position with no effort. From here, you can learn how to use the same action without the finger having to be completely straightened- but it's essential to reach right out first, in order to be sure of getting to know just how relaxed the other fingers can be. When the hand is stabilised in this way, there's no need for any tensions. Unless the stabilisation is there, it just isn't possible to relax except between depressions (which turns into never relaxing at all at higher speeds and also disconnects the arm).

Basically, this is the key activity which must be understood and included. Otherwise intent to relax the hand has the perverse effect of causing severe and uncontrollable tensions, as soon as you play fast.

[ajspiano]

Basically, this is the key activity which must be understood and included. Otherwise intent to relax the hand has the perverse effect of causing severe and uncontrollable tensions, as soon as you play fast.

I might add (while not meaning suggest that my own technique is that good), that when you develop an understanding of balance - which involves a uniquely different position for the finger/hand/arm for each finger (only slightly though) - you find that when you are off balance it feels downright awful and plain wrong...   however, before you reach this point and are used to playing unbalanced you will have absolutely no idea of the effect it is having.

You will just have passages that you can play, and passages you cant - and be confused as to why.

[keyboardclass]

So tell a guy whose head is angled at a right angle to relax his neck- without first using his muscles to put himself upright.

There are muscles of posture in the neck, none in the arms/hands/fingers so it's not an analogy with any relevance.

Guys, you're under the illusion that you can improve on a movement - you can't, you can only relax more i.e. contract fewer muscles and contract them less.

[nyiregyhazi]

There are muscles of posture in the neck, none in the arms/hands/fingers so it's not an analogy with any relevance.

Guys, you're under the illusion that you can improve on a movement - you can't, you can only relax more i.e. contract fewer muscles and contract them less.

Um, regarding your second point- it would stand up if piano playing were done in thin air. Last time I checked, it isn't.regarding the first,you have not understood the premise. It is the same in that different starting positions require different levels of work to maintain balance.this is achieved by muscles and tendons. whether you're grasping at straws for the sake of not backing down or sincerely believe that the location of muscles is an issue,it isn't.the issue is that poor technique typically involves situations it's impossible to perform the task without resort to a balancing effort-not incapability of making the muscles relax.

[keyboardclass]

the issue is that poor technique typically involves situations it's impossible to perform the task without resort to a balancing effort-not incapability of making the muscles relax.

come again?