What do you guys do to strengthen (I really mean relax) your fingers?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Aside from scales and Czerny studies, what do you guys do to strengthen your fingers?

I think the best thing to do is to play on a heavy piano.  Sure scales help, but that's only helpful on the piano you practice your scales on.

EDIT
____________________________________________
How do you relax your fingers, wrist, hands whatever?!  It's so frustrating trying to relax your fingers but tense up at the end!!!

For those of you guys who can manage to do the seemingly impossible task of relaxing, it must be pretty awesome knowing that nothing is to difficult for you to play huh?

[thalbergmad]

Give up playing Czerny Studies. Just play a few of his delightful variations and your fingers will get an equally good work out and the results will be much more pleasant.

Thal

[ajspiano]

I haven't practiced scales in the conventional way for a very long time - and I never did it as a means to 'strengthen' fingers.

I've never studied czerny in my life.

And since there exist child prodigies that are clearly too young to have the strength and power of an adults fully developed muscular system I think its fairly debatable that anyone should be trying to 'strengthen' their fingers so much as develop the facility to move them quickly and accurately while maintaining a comfortable balanced position over each finger and using the appropriate supportive arm/body movements.

[j_menz]

I wonder if what you are after is not so much "strength" as "stamina".

[ted]

I use my Virgil Practice Clavier, on about six or seven ounces, for around ten minutes night and morning, as I have for the last forty years. I can play scales and other orthodox playing forms if I want to but I seldom actually do. I enjoy constantly developing new movements whose end is creative expression at the instrument. The ideals of smooth execution and regularity I find aurally dull and unsuited to the production of the sort of music I enjoy hearing. I realise devices such as the clavier are not fashionable in pianistic circles these days, but mine has served me extremely well; and I doubt, at sixty-four, I would have been left with anywhere near my present facility had I not used it.

I agree with other posters that "strength" is not the right word to describe what ideally happens with fingers.

[ajspiano]

I use my Virgil Practice Clavier, on about six or seven ounces

Though I'm not experienced with such a practice tool - may I suggest that the result of such an exercise would be that it becomes of far greater importance to use the proper technique/balance/support because the fingers alone simply would not ever have the strength to depress the keys. It would take nearly a full KG of pressure at that setting to play a large chord.

[ted]

Fair comment. I don't exactly use it in that way but it is very difficult to describe exactly the action I do use and the sensations obtained. I hasten to add that I botched its use up completely when I first tried, but as I have covered that in another thread somewhere I shan't repeat myself. Briefly, for me it doesn't matter if the clavier keys touch bottom and there is no sensation of effort or strain but heaps of finger flexion and striking velocity. And you're quite right about chords; it has never been any good to me for chords. Excellent for double notes though.

I really answered the question out of interest only, and given my lifelong lack of technical tuition, anything I say has to be read with caution. But work for me it has, and wonderfully so. Might have just fluked the best way of using it I expect.

[ajspiano]

no sensation of effort or strain but heaps of finger flexion and striking velocity

Which would be very valuable i suspect - but has nothing to do with 'strength' - rather, speed. And, would still demand correct arm movement as well (or else you'd end up with extremely tired and sore fingers, and it would feel like a lot of effort)

[pianoplunker]

Aside from scales and Czerny studies, what do you guys do to strengthen your fingers?

I think the best thing to do is to play on a heavy piano.  Sure scales help, but that's only helpful on the piano you practice your scales on.

What I do is tie a fishing weight to each finger and then practice Hanon for hours. Then, fill up water balloons with warm water and squeeze them until they burst. The warm water is great for relaxing the tendons. Next; with the fishing weights still strapped to my fingers, I turn my hand upside down and do lifts, similar to a forearm curl but only using one finger at  time and making sure to keep the back side of my hand flat on a surface while doing so.  If you want to know even more tips for strengthening fingers please look up my upcoming book "The Atlas Method for Piano" for just $49.95   . The true path to virtuoso-ness

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I haven't practiced scales in the conventional way for a very long time - and I never did it as a means to 'strengthen' fingers.

I've never studied czerny in my life.

And since there exist child prodigies that are clearly too young to have the strength and power of an adults fully developed muscular system I think its fairly debatable that anyone should be trying to 'strengthen' their fingers so much as develop the facility to move them quickly and accurately while maintaining a comfortable balanced position over each finger and using the appropriate supportive arm/body movements.

Well then why does the weight of the piano factors in how you play then?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I use my Virgil Practice Clavier, on about six or seven ounces, for around ten minutes night and morning

What is that?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

What I do is tie a fishing weight to each finger and then practice Hanon for hours. Then, fill up water balloons with warm water and squeeze them until they burst. The warm water is great for relaxing the tendons. Next; with the fishing weights still strapped to my fingers, I turn my hand upside down and do lifts, similar to a forearm curl but only using one finger at  time and making sure to keep the back side of my hand flat on a surface while doing so.  If you want to know even more tips for strengthening fingers please look up my upcoming book "The Atlas Method for Piano" for just $49.95   . The true path to virtuoso-ness

Lol that's interesting!  I feel like that would destroy my hands thugh.  I'll take a look at it though.

[ajspiano]

Well then why does the weight of the piano factors in how you play then?

Perhaps because very few of us have a flawless and perfectly sculpted technique over every single note we ever play? and even fewer of us can adapt to a new instrument with a different touch weight within the first few notes played..

I'm in no way arguing that touch weight doesn't effect our performance - but physical strength is not how to overcome it.

Standard touch weight is ~50g...  60-70 is considered pretty high - ted is talking about 200g, which is very extreme. But even in that case, if you stick your hand over a scale and press with 1 finger you'll find that 4-500g is fairly achieveable without too much effort so increasing strength is not going to help us, we are already plenty strong enough, we actually just need to learn how to direct our strength with speed and accuracy.

[pianoplunker]

Lol that's interesting!  I feel like that would destroy my hands thugh.  I'll take a look at it though.

Please dont do that !  I was just jokingly trying to point out "strength" of fingers. Your fingers do not need to be any "stronger" to play weighted keys. when I was young I used to practice making my fingers as strong as possible, forearms torn down, sweating.  Really working hard. That is not the correct way and it could destroy your hands as I can atest to having occasional tendonitus I believe from those days when I used to make my fingers "stronger".  

[jmanpno]

I don't.  Simply coordinate and you'll be fine.

[ted]

What is that?

It is a full, silent piano keyboard with variable key resistance. Several good pianists used them a hundred years ago. The only recent one I know of who did was Arrau, but there are probably others. As far as I know, a modern version of the device has never been made.

[keyboardclass]

It's the ligaments that need strengthening and for that the only recourse I know, apart from playing, is yoga.  Appropriate stretching will help increase the blood flow (which is minimal (which is why they're white)) which will help get more nutrients to them.  There is yoga for the fingers - check out magician websites.   I've got a whole set in pictures for pianists/violinists.  I'd recommend them as an adjunct to keyboard work.

[johnmar78]

ok here is my two cents, I used to custom mini weights for each fingers and do 10X200g each sets for 20 minutes....JUST JOKING.

15 yeasr ago, I added 38gs of weights to back of my grand piano's key action as meant to add approx 10% heavier than full size grand in the perfomace theratre I used. In the recent 3 years I have reduced the weight in poprtion to what used in now days grand in the piano shops. I beleive the piano manufacture(s) now have made the key touch much lighter  than last decade where key actions were much heavier. Thereofe, I did the same now by reducing the weights of my keys but 10% heavier than standard. Here you go.

[nyiregyhazi]

Though I'm not experienced with such a practice tool - may I suggest that the result of such an exercise would be that it becomes of far greater importance to use the proper technique/balance/support because the fingers alone simply would not ever have the strength to depress the keys. It would take nearly a full KG of pressure at that setting to play a large chord.

But that's split between the fingers and the mass of the arm exists to stabilise due to inertia. The fingers have plenty of strength if developed in the right way. Also, consider that when measuring action weight in grams, the reading given produces NO SOUND! To produce healthy tone requires vastly more pressure than the tiny measurements that are quoted. This is often the subject of misunderstanding, but fingers need to create more pressure than the listed mass even to play ppp!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

But that's split between the fingers and the mass of the arm exists to stabilise due to inertia. The fingers have plenty of strength if developed in the right way. Also, consider that when measuring action weight in grams, the reading given produces NO SOUND! To produce healthy tone requires vastly more pressure than the tiny measurements that are quoted. This is often the subject of misunderstanding, but fingers need to create more pressure than the listed mass even to play ppp!

Yeah!

[keyboardclass]

Also, consider that when measuring action weight in grams, the reading given produces NO SOUND! To produce healthy tone requires vastly more pressure than the tiny measurements that are quoted. This is often the subject of misunderstanding, but fingers need to create more pressure than the listed mass even to play ppp!

My piano produces a pp with about 50 grams (15 pennies) - hardly 'vastly more'!

[nyiregyhazi]

My piano produces a pp with about 50 grams (15 pennies) - hardly 'vastly more'!

Paraphrasing people with accuracy really isn't a strong point of yours is it? Would you like to reread? Healthy tone takes vastly more (at an estimate I'd say at least two or three times the touchweight for a healthy mf). Nobody said that a mere pianissimo takes 'vastly more' and I suggest that you read more carefully before paraphrasing- in order to prevent the constant misattributions that you are continually making to a wealth of different sources.

[keyboardclass]

but fingers need to create more pressure than the listed mass even to play ppp!

!?

[nyiregyhazi]

!?

Would you like to point out where the word 'vastly' occurs in that sentence? More means more ie. an undefined quantity more. Not 'vastly more'. Just as when I say that 101 is 'more than' 100, it does not mean that I feel 101 is 'vastly more' than 100. Did you study comprehension at school? When paraphrasing, you are not permitted to randomly attach words that radically change the meaning- yet which are neither contained in the sentence nor even implied.

[keyboardclass]

Listed mass:

Standard touch weight is ~50g...  60-70 is considered pretty high - ted is talking about 200g, which is very extreme. But even in that case, if you stick your hand over a scale and press with 1 finger you'll find that 4-500g is fairly achieveable without too much effort

My experience:

My piano produces a pp with about 50 grams (15 pennies) - hardly 'vastly more'!

Can't you read?

[49410enrique]

ff to 0:27 or so, that should make em plenty strong.  though i guess i should ask what you're strengthening for, neither the subject nor the op main post state the goal just strength and two possibe methods.  play louder? stronger but not for piano? just wondering

still very cool

[ajspiano]

But that's split between the fingers and the mass of the arm exists to stabilise due to inertia.

I appreciate that it probably didn't read this way, but i was certainly not trying to suggest that each finger must individually supply a full KG of downward pressure.

rather that in order to supply a total pressure of 1KG that it would be wise to use the weight of the arm more so than to over exert fingers.

---------------

That aside - nyiregyhazi, you seem more physics knowledgeable than I - perhaps you can clarify the relationships between weight, velocity, and force..

since in my mind if, the touch weight is 50g, then i should be able to displace it enough to make a sound with lets say 55g

- but thats talking about a free weight falling into the keybed (as with stacking up some pennies) and its starting on the key - fingers on the other hand could supply 55g of weight at a higher velocity - which would result in greater force applied to the key - but perhaps does not require more strength so much as simply the ability to move faster..

...this all with out going into how varying arm weight effects the velocity of the key/hammer without any alteration to the fingers motion..

...or the factor that I was thinking about with this thread, - that poor technique results in added and unnecessary fatigue in many places

.......................

[rachmaninoff_forever]

ff to 0:27 or so, that should make em plenty strong.  though i guess i should ask what you're strengthening for, neither the subject nor the op main post state the goal just strength and two possibe methods.  play louder? stronger but not for piano? just wondering

still very cool

Oh my god I cringe whenever I even think of trying something like that!

[nyiregyhazi]

Listed mass:
My experience:
Can't you read?

I don't care if you have a very light action. Surprisingly enough I was speaking in reference to a piano that has the touchweight that is listed for it. What kind of fool would apply the touchweight of one piano to another? The listed mass for touchweight applies to whatever piano it has been measured on and no other. I did not reference any specific numbers or state that any numbers apply to every piano made- but referred to whatever mass is quoted for as being a piano's touchweight. What I then stated was that healthy tone takes vastly more than the mass which is quoted as being the touchweight. Even if you have an unusually light piano then you will still need vastly more than the equivalent of 50g to produce a healthy tone. And you will also need more (not 'vastly more', as you misquoted) than the touchweight of your piano to make pp.

[nyiregyhazi]

"I appreciate that it probably didn't read this way, but i was certainly not trying to suggest that each finger must individually supply a full KG of downward pressure.

rather that in order to supply a total pressure of 1KG that it would be wise to use the weight of the arm more so than to over exert fingers."

This is where it gets a little complex, but I don't find the individual figures incredible without active arm pressure. The thing is that the arm has mass. Mass is just there. You don't have to throw it around. Picture a wrecking ball on a chain. Initially, it's as good as weightless. But try to push up at it and you experience the full resistance of inertia (due to mass). Nobody needs to cut the chain for it to resist force. It's mass just has to exist. Also, even if the arm is lightly displaced during finger movement, it can still provide enough stabilisation for fingers to apply good force. All in all, it just means that you shouldn't necessarily assume that the arm must play an active role in pressure.

" but thats talking about a free weight falling into the keybed (as with stacking up some pennies) and its starting on the key - fingers on the other hand could supply 55g of weight at a higher velocity - which would result in greater force applied to the key - but perhaps does not require more strength so much as simply the ability to move faster.."

Okay, it gets midly complex here but 55g of mass (not greatly significant, but strictly speaking this is different to weight- in a pedantic version) will produce more acceleration. However the free fall thing is the issue. A smaller mass could produce more acceleration when not in free fall, if accelerated at a fasted rate than gravity accelerates things. In fact, at a certain point, more mass is useless- as it's limited to the rate gravity accelerates at. At this point more mass does not produce more hammer speed but simply hits the keybed harder and with more impact. It takes active impulse to produce more hammer speed beyond a certain point- so a dead drop of even 1000kg will not produce the loudest sound possible. A very light mass that is smoothly but effectively accelerated could apply more energy to the hammer- and with less energy hitting the keybed. I speak about these kinds of issues in my recent blog post. There is huge scope for different levels of efficiency-which determines how much wasted energy goes into impact.

Anyway, the point is that these figures are not about the mass but more about the acceleration CAUSED by the freefalling mass. Real playing is totally different- and can involve more mass but slower speeds or less mass and faster speeds. "Touchweight" is an interesting yardstick, but once you introduce a human hand it becomes altogether different in just about every way. The concept makes things seem a lot simpler than the reality.

[ajspiano]

All in all, it just means that you shouldn't necessarily assume that the arm must play an active role in pressure

Without writing an extensive reply to your whole post here -

ofcourse not - but this is exactly why i'm arguing that you don't need a stronger finger..  what if the arm effectively has 0 mass transferred to the key because it's entire weight is being held up by the performer, and they are therefore only using the mass of their finger combined with the fingers flex action?

performer gets tired fingers and concludes that he/she needs to strengthen the fingers.. ?

[nyiregyhazi]

Without writing an extensive reply to your whole post here -

ofcourse not - but this is exactly why i'm arguing that you don't need a stronger finger..  what if the arm effectively has 0 mass transferred to the key because it's entire weight is being held up by the performer, and they are therefore only using the mass of their finger combined with the fingers flex action?

performer gets tired fingers and concludes that he/she needs to strengthen the fingers.. ?

Okay, I can speak pretty unequivocally on this one- the mass of the finger is nowhere near what it would take to produce even a moderate tone unless the something is actively driving it through the key. The hammer probably has more mass. Don't assume it must be the arm though (which would collapse the fingers anyway and sacrifice energy transfer, unless the fingers are either rigid or actively extending out)

There is an alternative to arm pressure that modern teaching tends to completely overlook or even deny. The fingers move the keys (not by falling) and push the knuckles up, possibly even bouncing the arm up lightly. This can involve nothing but the fact that the arm's mass exists-with no pressing, falling or dropping. I can get a big sound with this in the chords before the coda of chopin's fourth ballade. I think there's great value in exploring how passive arm mass can stabilise movement via the hand itself. Sometimes I even like to slowly lift the arm AWAY-to test how much the finger can produce. The slight arm lift also makes for an extremely soft landing- no matter how vigorously the fingers extend.

EDIT- sorry I missed the flex! Apologies for misdirecting that- I was out drinking earlier and should have read more carefully. The problem with a pure flex is that it's rather indirect- but flexing from the knuckle while extending the rest of the finger does exactly what you say. I use this for loud sounds that are entirely sourced from hand movements. The arm's mass stabilises- but only the finger's mass (and action) directly moves the key.

[ajspiano]

well regardless of how to effectively transfer weight/force to a key - perhaps we can at least agree on that the critical factor is how you use the entire apparatus - not the strength of your flexors.

...not that I disagree with you either. I'm usually pretty inline with your thoughts once I figure out exactly what you mean..  I should really learn to articulate this stuff better..

[keyboardkat]

One of my professors, the late Dr. Konrad Wolff, said that Hanon should be called by its French pronunciation, "Ah, no!"

I would recommend the Dohnanyi exercises which require holding certain notes and playing others in the same hand for strength and control.   They are marvelous!   The Cortot excercises are also wonderful.    Walter Hautzig, also one of my teachers, used to recommend Pischna, on which he built his technique.

[nyiregyhazi]

well regardless of how to effectively transfer weight/force to a key - perhaps we can at least agree on that the critical factor is how you use the entire apparatus - not the strength of your flexors.

...not that I disagree with you either. I'm usually pretty inline with your thoughts once I figure out exactly what you mean..  I should really learn to articulate this stuff better..

Well, I don't quite agree. I think the strength is an issue. It's just that without coordination, raw strength has no value. Producing a big sound from the hand does require muscular development and power. However, if you don't direct that strength effectively, it is wasted.

I think a big issue is that when people think of strength they associate strain and hard landings. Personally I believe in learning how to apply considerable strength without causing an impact. Effective use of strength involves no impact and it cannot effectively be developed by simply pressing hard. Ironically, people tend to think the arm can replace the hand's need for strength, but arm pressure often just forces the hand to work harder under duress. When the hand moves well, it develops far more than when the arm is constantly trying to force energy through it (leaving it with no choice but to be stiffening).

[rachmaninoff_forever]

One of my professors, the late Dr. Konrad Wolff, said that Hanon should be called by its French pronunciation, "Ah, no!"

I would recommend the Dohnanyi exercises which require holding certain notes and playing others in the same hand for strength and control.   They are marvelous!   The Cortot excercises are also wonderful.    Walter Hautzig, also one of my teachers, used to recommend Pischna, on which he built his technique.

For the Dohnanyi exercises, can't I just do a Bach prelude and fugue?

[j_menz]

For the Dohnanyi exercises, can't I just do a Bach prelude and fugue?

You can even skip the Prelude.

I do recommend some of the non-exercise Dohnanyi pieces, though not for purposes relevant to this thread.

[ajspiano]

Well, I don't quite agree. I think the strength is an issue. It's just that without coordination, raw strength has no value. Producing a big sound from the hand does require muscular development and power. However, if you don't direct that strength effectively, it is wasted.

I've seen OP comment on the playing of chopin etudes, in such a way as to suggest he/she can play 1 or 2 of them to at least a semi-decent standard..  it seems unlikely that the level of development you are talking about isnt already there. Additionally, the fingers must have strength in order to make it through the day as a human..  you can just have weak fingers - strength has been developing from day one regardless of the piano..   this is turning into a debate about the relevant definition of 'strength'...

I think a big issue is that when people think of strength they associate strain and hard landings....Effective use of strength involves no impact and it cannot effectively be developed by simply pressing hard..

Yes, the majority of people when discussing the idea of strength are talking about moving larger heavier objects, not being able to exert a more powerful force at a higher speed.

I think that its debatable that in the case of piano playing we require the development of greater strength, so much as the development of the fast twitch muscle fibers - its not more strength, its a different strength.

I wouldve referred to it as developing the ability to release the fingers power quickly, not increasing the amount of power the finger has..

Ironically, people tend to think the arm can replace the hand's need for strength, but arm pressure often just forces the hand to work harder under duress. When the hand moves well, it develops far more than when the arm is constantly trying to force energy through it (leaving it with no choice but to be stiffening).

Its a question of balance - you can't expect the fingers to do the arms job, in the same way that you can't expect the arm to do the fingers job..

[keyboardclass]

I wouldve referred to it as developing the ability to release the fingers power quickly, not increasing the amount of power the finger has..

That's probably the nail on the head.  A famous concert pianist once said to me  'Anyone can put a finger down, it's the raising where the art is' and a famous hand transplant surgeon told me the finger extensors are only 10% of the capacity of the finger flexors. 

As for 'stiffening' as you add arm support - yes, but only for the millisecond of key depression.  That's the secret there.

[keyboardclass]

...not that I disagree with you [nyiregyhazi] either. I'm usually pretty inline with your thoughts once I figure out exactly what you mean..

Which is no easy thing to do.  Part of the obfuscation is to hide the fact that N., like his mentor Alan Fraser, eschews the use of arm weight (though with N. it seems to change - one month all on, another month all off).  Fraser's favourite trick is to lie on his back under a table and play the underneath saying - "You see, I can play just as well."  It's all very clear in his first book - I wonder if he's retracted anything for the new?

[nyiregyhazi]

As for 'stiffening' as you add arm support - yes, but only for the millisecond of key depression.  That's the secret there.

A secret that you have never achieved yet you still preach?

 www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5OEJBIo38o&nomobile=1

Momentary stiffness is nonsense. Good pianists move instead of stiffening, whereas bad ones stiffen up constantly and are incapable of letting go throughout fast passages. This is a classic example of a passage where the fingers need to move if you are to avoid appalling stiffness. A virtuoso is no more capable of training his reflexes to stiffen for the exact number of milliseconds (with complete reliability and precision) than you are. It's just a poor attempt to add a balancing factor to an implausible explanation- by tacking on an equally implausible explanation for why the hand does not collapse.

Stiffening doesn't even function for the simple reason that nothing is perfectly stiff. A finger that performs a simple extension movement both negates the need for stiffness and achieves less give than a braced one. Effort put into stiffening is wasted effort.

[nyiregyhazi]

Which is no easy thing to do.  Part of the obfuscation is to hide the fact that N., like his mentor Alan Fraser, eschews the use of arm weight (though with N. it seems to change - one month all on, another month all off).  Fraser's favourite trick is to lie on his back under a table and play the underneath saying - "You see, I can play just as well."  It's all very clear in his first book - I wonder if he's retracted anything for the new?

I don't eschew use of arm-weight. I eschew the dangers of stiffening the hand (rather than moving it well) due to over-dependence on arm-weight. A good pianist should have options.

If you want to attribute opinions to me, please quote them verbatim. Whether your constant misattributions are out of dishonesty or laziness, I'm tired of seeing you paraphrasing anyone and everyone in ways that does not reflect what they said- but rather what it suits you to claim that they said.

[nyiregyhazi]

Its a question of balance - you can't expect the fingers to do the arms job, in the same way that you can't expect the arm to do the fingers job..

Maybe, but who defines the limits? Most people instantly assume the arm has to provide volume- rather than how to make it an optional extra. In the staccato chords before the coda of the 4th ballade, a finger action provides a very clearly defined tone and allows great speed. Traditionally this would be thought of as the arm's job- but if you question these roles, it turns out that getting the hand doing more opens countless possibilities. In many cases assumptions about the arm's job just perpetuates the sense of weakness in the hand- especially if the student is encouraged to attempt keyboardclass' nonsense of stiffening the hand to transfer arm pressure.

[keyboardclass]

A virtuoso is no more capable of training his reflexes to stiffen for the exact number of milliseconds (with complete reliability and precision) than you are.

Perhaps not, the secret is in instant relaxation! which of course amounts to the same thing.

[nyiregyhazi]

Perhaps not, the secret is in instant relaxation! which of course amounts to the same thing.

Sudden relaxation contributes nothing. Jump off a step with relaxed legs and the relaxed legs will buckle into the ground, ending with an impact- unless you push up through the landing. An abrupt moment of seizure followed by relaxation is no better. Do you land with stiffly braced legs and then relax them? A moment of stiffness is a completely inept way to make a stop and following it with relaxation does not do a thing to compensate for the preceding moment of impact- which is what actually matters. Even if there were any evidence of you relaxing between notes in the Grieg (eg. the bent wrist being free enough to return to alignment under gravity), a hard landing is still a hard landing.

You ought to watch some films of gymnasts in slow motion. Soft landings are performed by engaging movements of the legs to redirect momentum away from impact- not by either landing with stiffness or limpness.

[nyiregyhazi]

This has some interesting footage:

Note how smoothly the momentum is redirected away from the floor in the jumps at around 1:20- neither by stiffening nor relaxing but by PUSHING OFF to redirect it. Compare to the notably larger impact when the gymnasts have to land into a dead stop to finish the routine. It's much easier to prevent impact when you keep the momentum doing something. The stiffen then relax approach is equivalent to if the gymnast tried to land into a dead stop every time before starting a new jump from scratch. Speed and flow go out of the window.

Good technique conserves the momentum like the gymnast does through somersaults. Instead of crashing into dead impact, it keeps being sprung back into action via the push off. You can never achieve any such thing with a stiff landing followed by relaxation. Speed goes out the window if this is taken literally. Thudding and then slumping is simply useless compared to actively springing off.

[werq34ac]

Your fingers actually don't have muscles (I think..) but are actually made of ligaments.

And all this touchweight crap (whatever it is) isn't there a minimum speed in which the keys need to be pressed in order to sound? If you look inside a piano, a hammer is actually thrown at the keys so enough energy needs to be present in order for the hammer to actually hit the string. (Thus supporting N's point that one needs SLIGHTLY MORE weight than this touchweight thingy in order for the piano to sound).

As for the actual touchweight of a piano, WHO GIVES A DAMN? Seriously, the figure 50 grams means absolutely nothing to me and the actual feeling of pressing down a key can tell you so much more than "50 grams."


Although the point that people are trying to make is that one should not strive for finger strength, but finger mobility and independence. Yes?

This whole debate is ridiculous.

[ajspiano]

Your fingers actually don't have muscles (I think..) but are actually made of ligaments.

the muscles in question are located in the forearm.

And all this touchweight crap (whatever it is)

This minimum amount of weight to be applied to cause the key to depress.

As for the actual touchweight of a piano, WHO GIVES A DAMN?

Piano technicians.

And really, I agree that it has little to do with making good music - its just being used here to illustrate the fact that as humans we have more than enough power to depress a key and why strength is not the issue.

This whole debate is ridiculous.

So make a point that isn't.

[nyiregyhazi]

And really, I agree that it has little to do with making good music - its just being used here to illustrate the fact that as humans we have more than enough power to depress a key and why strength is not the issue.

The problem with such an illustration is that it misrepresents what it takes to get a remotely big sound though. The word "strength" can be misleading- but arguably it's vastly more misleading to reference a mere 60g, as if it has any bearing on the reality of piano playing. A well functioning finger action ought to be able to generate even more acceleration and tone than a kg of mass in free fall! It takes plenty of muscular development to do so- even if the word "strength" is not quite the right word.

I don't think it's wrong to think of strength myself. It's just important to remember that strength is not acquired by hard impacts and that strength cannot compensate for inefficient transmission of energy through the key.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Yo

As for the actual touchweight of a piano, WHO GIVES A DAMN?

Woaaaaaaaaaah hold it there!  Try dealing with a digital piano with lightly weighted keys then having piano lessons on a piano with god knows how many Kgs the keys are. 

I get a HUGE difference when I play La Campanella on both pianos