Difficulties

[jorley]

Hi everyone! I have a question.. How would you rank these pieces from easiest to hardest?

Italian Concerto (Bach)
Impromptu op 90 no 2 (Schubert)
Nocturne op 48 no 1 (Chopin)
Fantasie Impromptu (Chopin)
Etude op 10 no 3 (Chopin)
Etude op 25 no 1 (Chopin)
Ballade no 3 (Chopin)
Impromptu op 142 no 3 (Schubert)
Moonlight (Beethoven)
Nocturne op 27 no 1 (Chopin)
Intermezzo op 118 no 2 (Brahms)

Thanks!

[pianowolfi]

Intermezzo op. 118 no. 2 (Brahms)
Impromptu op. 90 no. 2 (Schubert)
Impromptu op. 142 no. 3 (Schubert)
Fantaisie-Impromptu (Chopin)
Nocturne op. 27 no. 1 (Chopin)
Etude op. 10 no. 3 (Chopin)
Italian Concerto (Bach)
Etude op 25 no 1 (Chopin)
Nocturne op 48 no 1 (Chopin)
Moonlight (Beethoven)
Ballade no. 3 (Chopin)

Of course that's only how I experience them.

None of them is really "easy", you need a solid musical and technical background to play them satisfactory.

[jorley]

yes of course! Thank you very much! But do you really think that Nocturne op 27 no 1 is harder than fantasie impromptu and italian concerto harder than the etude op 10 no 3? And is Moonlight really harder than nocturne op 48 no 1 and Etude op 10 no 3?

Thanks!

[pianowolfi]

yes of course! Thank you very much! But do you really think that Nocturne op 27 no 1 is harder than fantasie impromptu and italian concerto harder than the etude op 10 no 3? And is Moonlight really harder than nocturne op 48 no 1 and Etude op 10 no 3?

Thanks!

The Nocturne 27,1 is very subtle and delicate, and if you haven't got the "right sound" you'll ruin this piece way easier than the Fantaisie-Impromptu, which seems more straightforward to me.

Italian concerto is much longer than the Etude op. 10,3. It contains a lot of polyphony, fingerwork and passages.
The Etude Op. 10,3 requires a lot of time, patience and it's not easy to memorize but once you got it it's less "nerve-wracking" than the Italian concerto.

I have played Nocturne op. 48, 1 for an important exam a few years (well rather decades) ago, and I am now practicing Moonlight, and I think If I had to decide which one to play for an exam I'd go with the Nocturne.

[jorley]

okay, thanks for you help! I am right now working on the nocturne op 27 no 1.. Do you think it would be okay to start the fantasie impromptu or etude op 10 no 3 when I am done with it?

[pianowolfi]

I think that's almost impossible to say, since "we" don't know how you play. 

[jorley]

that's true of course.. thanks anyway

[slobone]

The Henle website rates them (on a scale of 1 to 9):

Italian Concerto (Bach) = 6/7
Impromptu op 90 no 2 (Schubert) = 6
Nocturne op 48 no 1 (Chopin) = 7
Fantasie Impromptu (Chopin) = 7
Etude op 10 no 3 (Chopin) = 6/7
Etude op 25 no 1 (Chopin) = 6/7
Ballade no 3 (Chopin) = 7/8
Impromptu op 142 no 3 (Schubert) = 6
Moonlight (Beethoven) = 7
Nocturne op 27 no 1 (Chopin) = 6
Intermezzo op 118 no 2 (Brahms) = 6

[werq34ac]

Of the ones the ones I am familiar with in difficulty,

I'd say that the nocturne Op. 48/1 is harder than the Moonlight Sonata (I assume we are speaking of the 3rd movement in particular?). And I've actually heard that the 27/1 nocturne is the most difficult, but I could be wrong.

I would agree that Ballade 3 being the most difficult on that list.

Ummmmmm 10/3 is probably easier than 25/1, but not by much. Fantasie-Impromptu... I'm having trouble placing this one, having never studied the piece (I've read through it a few times though). I'd say it's comparable to the Moonlight, perhaps a little easier? I'm not sure.
The etudes... might be easier than fantasie impromptu I think.


THUS here's what I've come up with

easiest to hardest
Etude 10/3, 25/1
Fantasie-Impromptu
Moonlight
Nocturne 48/1, 27/1
Ballade.

For some reason that list looks REALLY wrong to me.. nocturnes being harder than etudes...

[jorley]

Thank you guys! Didn't know about the henle rankings!

werq34ac, is really the 27/1 as hard as 48/1 and harder than moonlight and fantasie impromptu? Maybe, I don't know... Anyway, how would you rate the other pieces I listed?

[werq34ac]

adsfjaskl;jbkl;cvjxb I don't know... they all are incredibly similar. It's a very rough estimate. Fantasie Impromptu is easier than it looks, while the moonlight (i found) is just a test of endurance for less experienced pianists. The nocturnes require much more musical maturity which might make it more difficult. It's always difficult to compare musical difficulty to technical difficulty.

As for the other pieces... sorry I haven't ever played them before..

[jorley]

Okay thanks anyway! But I don't think third movement of moonlight is for "less experienced players", the piece still is pretty advanced I think.

[werq34ac]

It is pretty advanced, but it's not quite to the standard where the world opens up. It's the kind of piece that kids play as a challenge to their technical skills (and show off to friends) rather than one that a more advanced student (who wouldn't consider the piece a technical challenge and a show off piece) would learn. I mean it IS advanced, but many not as advanced students play it. Same with Fantasie-Impromptu actually.

[jorley]

Yes of course I would say that it is the beginning of serious advanced music, musically and technically. It is not a Chopin ballade or scherzo in other words.

[werq34ac]

Yes of course I would say that it is the beginning of serious advanced music, musically and technically. It is not a Chopin ballade or scherzo in other words.

I would say that would be quite accurate. The beginning of serious advanced music. Although many kids play it before they reach the level of beginning serious advanced music. It is a tempting challenge for kids who are nearing that level.

[ajspiano]

I would say that would be quite accurate. The beginning of serious advanced music. Although many kids play it before they reach the level of beginning serious advanced music. It is a tempting challenge for kids who are nearing that level.

Indeed - I was busting to learn the moonlight 3rd mov as a kid - eventually did it around age 14 - and ofcourse thought it was a freaking monster, having no comprehension that it was barely the beginning..

Ofcourse though, as with all music - there is a significant difference in the difficulty when comparing a "I can play through the notes" type performance to a virtuoso one.

..I wouldnt have placed the fantasie as being tougher than the etudes..  perhaps that is just my personal experience with them though.

[werq34ac]

They're all at incredibly similar levels, so it's difficult to determine which is more difficult.

[ajspiano]

They're all at incredibly similar levels, so it's difficult to determine which is more difficult.

I also think its harder to place them if you have come out onto the other side of learning some advanced repertoire, and do not have some fairly extensive teaching experience with advanced works..  the perspective is skewed when you're advanced enough to find the pieces not so challenging any more.

[j_menz]

I also think that by the time you get to the point where you can play (or even contemplate playing) any of the advanced repertoire, the level of difficulty probably has a great deal more to do with the strengths and weaknesses you've acquired (or missed acquiring) along the way, than anything inherent in the pieces themselves (unless there is a vast difference in difficulty).

Also, I feel musically comfortable playing Bach, Beethoven (mostly, rarely his later stuff), Schubert and Brahms, but am never nearly satisfied with anything I play by Chopin.

[jorley]

Perhaps that is true! Thank you all... How about Revolutionary Etude, is that harder than Nocturne op 48 no 1?

And also, if one can play the pieces above, except the 3rd ballade, how many years away of hard practice do you think one is from playing Chopin's 4th ballade and pieces of that difficulty?

[werq34ac]

The 4th ballade is perhaps Chopin's most difficult work. The technique required is pretty significant, at least 10x more difficult than the 3rd ballade. However, the real difficulty lies in the maturity that the piece requires. I believe John Ogdon was the one who said, "An entire lifetime of experience contained in 12 minutes of music." It's a huge piece and would take many years of experience with Chopin's etudes and bigger works. Before you play your first ballade, you should play at least 2-3 etudes and 1-2 nocturnes. Before you play the 4th ballade, you should have significant experience with Chopin, maybe 7-8 etudes, 3-4 nocturnes, at least 2 other major works by Chopin (ballades, scherzos, etc.).

[jorley]

Okay I see.. It's probably(for me) also the greatest piece Chopin ever wrote, it's my ultimate goal which I doubt I will ever manage to reach, considering I started playing at age 16 and I am 19 now.. But I will work hard!
But as I said, which one is harder you think, between Op 48 no 1 and Revolutionary Etude?

[werq34ac]

I'd say that the nocturne's doppio movemento (or however you spell it) section is more technically difficult than the Revolutionary, but the Revolutionary requires a bit of endurance. It's only about 2 minutes so not much, but it still requires it. So technically I would rate them about the same.

However, musically the nocturne is much more difficult, especially that middle section.

[jorley]

How about the 24th Prelude in D minor? is it harder than the Nocturne op 48 no 1?

[jorley]

what do u think?

[beebert]

Impossible to answer. The prelude uses a technique that is, as far as I know, very unique. The Nocturne, is in many ways typical Chopin. Both are very difficult and advanced pieces, that's my answer. If you can play one, I wouldn't be surprised if you can play the other one too.

[richard_strauss]

I've played both and the prelude is far more difficult than the nocturne. You also have the pivot technique of the prelude in op 10 no 4. You should study this etude before studying the prelude.

[beebert]

richard_strauss may be right, but the nocturne is no walk in the park. I'd say it is good to have some etudes under your belt before studying any of these two works.

[werq34ac]

Wait do you mean 10/9? Because I remember the left hand was pretty similar to the prelude.

[beebert]

Yes I think he means op 10 no 9. The Revolutionary Etude presents a very different technique to the Nocturne.. However, I think that you can handle one if you can handle the other.

[iratior]

From least to most difficult, in my opinion:  Chopin op. 27 no.1, Bach Italian Concerto, Chopin Op. 25 no.1, Schubert Op.90 no. 2, Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, Chopin Fantasie Impromptu, Opus 10. no. 3, Ballade no. 3, Chopin op. 48 no. 1.  The other pieces I haven't tried yet.

[beebert]

From least to most difficult, in my opinion:  Chopin op. 27 no.1, Bach Italian Concerto, Chopin Op. 25 no.1, Schubert Op.90 no. 2, Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, Chopin Fantasie Impromptu, Opus 10. no. 3, Ballade no. 3, Chopin op. 48 no. 1.  The other pieces I haven't tried yet.

Interesting ranking actually! I don't agree though.. I wouldn't say that  Chopin Op 27 no 1 and 25 no 1 are easier than Schubert Op 90 no 2 for example. I personally also doubt that the Chopin Nocturne Op 48 no 1 is harder than Ballade no 3, I have played the Nocturne but I would not dare attempting the Ballade yet..

[iratior]

Oh the Chopin nocturne opus 48 no. 1 is immensely difficult, in my opinion.  Besides having bunches of chords having to go as fast as allegro sixteenth notes, the dynamics called for -- a steady rise in volume over two pages -- makes it even more difficult to articulate.  And there's the emotional depth of the piece to contend with, too.  I've written about it in some of my other postings.

[beebert]

I absolutely agree that the Nocturne is very hard. It's probably the hardest piece I have played.. But at the difficulty level of the ballade? I doubt it..

[werq34ac]

Oh the Chopin nocturne opus 48 no. 1 is immensely difficult, in my opinion.  Besides having bunches of chords having to go as fast as allegro sixteenth notes, the dynamics called for -- a steady rise in volume over two pages -- makes it even more difficult to articulate.  And there's the emotional depth of the piece to contend with, too.  I've written about it in some of my other postings.

While it's a nice nocturne, I really don't think it has the depth of the 3rd ballade. It even has a beautiful story. Theme 1 meets theme 2, they fall in love (theme 3) but theme 2 turns to the darkside. Then theme 1 triumphs and theme 1 and theme 2 end up loving each other (the coda)

[beebert]

While it's a nice nocturne, I really don't think it has the depth of the 3rd ballade. It even has a beautiful story. Theme 1 meets theme 2, they fall in love (theme 3) but theme 2 turns to the darkside. Then theme 1 triumphs and theme 1 and theme 2 end up loving each other (the coda)

I don't entirely agree.. In my opinion the Nocturne Op 48 no 1 deepest work by Chopin after the 4th ballade and perhaps some other pieces like his 2nd and 3rd piano sonatas and his 2nd and perhaps 1st ballade... But the 3rd Ballade is up there as well and it is certainly technically harder than the Nocturne..

[iratior]

But what are the difficulties of Ballade no. 3?  The tempo is only allegretto.  And for best effect, the double octaves in opus 48 no. 1 would go as fast as in the etude opus 25 no. 10 which makes them more difficult than opus 25 no. 10;  I know because I've tried them both.  And the approrpriate tempo for the third part of opus 48 no. 1 would appear to be 120 quarter notes per minute, just like opus 25 no. 10.

[beebert]

Musically the 3rd ballade is very difficult(so is op 48 no 1), technically, some parts reminds of the Nocturne's doppio movimento, but the parts in the ballade are more difficult. Also, it's longer, and has some fast passages and double notes that require a technique you don't really need for the Nocturne.. Also, I don't think I have ever heard anyone play the doppio movimento part at 120 quarter notes per minute... More suitable would be something between 80 - 100 quarter notes per minute, which still makes it fast and very hard. I play the Nocturne, it's insanely difficult, have you played the ballade? Also, about op 25 no 10, ones again I don't really agree, as the octaves in op 25 no 10 goes on for much longer.

[iratior]

Well, I have to admit that the ballade 3 is more difficult to sight-read than opus 48 no. 1.  We are talking about the same piece, aren't we -- it starts out in Ab major and is in 6/8 time;  how many dotted quarters per minute?  If 100 or more, than yes, I can see it might be as hard as opus 48 no. 1, but 100 dotted quarters per minute in 6/8 time with sixteenth notes regularly appearing would typically be considered an allegro or vivace or even a presto tempo rather than an allegretto.  Meanwhile, I'd venture to say opus 48 no. 1 is way harder than opus 25 no. 10.

[beebert]

Yes we are talking about the same piece. I of course meant that 80-100 quarter notes per minute was suitable for the Doppio Movimento in Op 48 no 1. I don't know the suitable tempo for the ballade no 3 but you are right that with 6/8 time, 100 quarter or dotted quarter notes per minute is too much. I don't have anything against saying that the op 48 no 1 is harder than op 25 no 10, but that's because of the doppio moviment, which is hands down the most difficult part in the nocturne..

[werq34ac]

Well, I have to admit that the ballade 3 is more difficult to sight-read than opus 48 no. 1.  We are talking about the same piece, aren't we -- it starts out in Ab major and is in 6/8 time;  how many dotted quarters per minute?  If 100 or more, than yes, I can see it might be as hard as opus 48 no. 1, but 100 dotted quarters per minute in 6/8 time with sixteenth notes regularly appearing would typically be considered an allegro or vivace or even a presto tempo rather than an allegretto.  Meanwhile, I'd venture to say opus 48 no. 1 is way harder than opus 25 no. 10.

You're really comparing speeds to determine difficulty? Really? As if that were the ONLY factor that made a piece difficult. As for the speeds themselves, one is allegretto, and the other doppio movemento. Who's to say which is faster? The doppio movimento (let's call it dm) is just twice as fast as the lento. Which means the tempo is roughly 100 to the quarter, with triplets and the 16th notes. Which means the notes are at approximately 300 for the triplets and 400 for the 16ths (mathematically calculating these because you attempted to use numbers to justify your answer). The ballade works at roughly 80 to the dotted quarter (remember that the tempo is allegretto) for the 16th note sections, which is 480 to the dotted quarter. And it gets slightly faster meaning the big C# minor section at the end is somewhere around say, 540. Thus the ballade is generally faster than the nocturne. While the octave section maybe a slower in the ballade, remember that the octave section in the ballade contains jumps in both hands and lots of chords. While the octave section in the nocturne gave me no trouble at all while sightreading, I could never quite play the ending perfectly clean for the ballade.

Yes, the dm section in the nocturne gave me trouble sightreading, but in the end it's just chords. The ballade chord section and C# minor climax are just as hard. Not saying they're harder, but just as hard. Plus the middle section with the arpeggios isn't exactly easy either (in the ballade).

As for musical difficulty, the ballade is much more complex in terms of form/structure and harmonic modulation. In the end, possibly the most difficult nocturne is less difficult than the least difficult ballade. It's like comparing Liszt's Hungarian rhapsodies to the sonata in Bm.

[iratior]

How many quarter notes per minute should there be in an allegretto tempo?  That is the question.  In a book of Mozart Sonatas, the last movement rondo of K. 545 has a tempo Allegretto grazioso and the editor advises 104 quarter notes per minute.  On the other hand, the tempo of the first movement of K.284 is allegro and the editor says 120 quarter notes per minute.  There were a couple of other cases where allegro was 116 quarter notes per minute.  So maybe the ballade doens't have to go so fast as 120 quarter notes per minute.  I see where there are leaps but opus 48 no. 1 has a lot of leaps too.

[werq34ac]

The jumps in the nocturne are either only in one hand or parallel. In the chord section of the ballade, the jumps are pretty independant of each other. I found the jumps in the ballade much more difficult than the nocturne.

How fast is allegretto? In the beginning, the allegretto seems to be less than 80. In the end it seems to be around 95 MAYBE 100 but that's pushing it. It's up to the pianist to figure how to solve this conundrum seeing as Chopin didn't write any accelerandos except at the end of the chord sections (he writes stretto). Personally, I felt that an accelerando to the C# minor climax worked best and then maintaining the new tempo upon reaching the climax.

Listen to performances of both to get ideas for speed.


Besides, the true difficulty of these pieces is in the music, not the notes.