Am I wasting my time with scales and Czerny?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I'm probably not going to take your advice if you tell me to, I just thought this was a good title.  My piano teacher makes me do Czerny and scales so I can't really say no because he's the teacher and everything he says is right!  It's kinda like, "mother knows best!".

But I posted a thread about strengthening your fingers which I guess wasn't really a good title because the discussion didn't head the direction I wanted it to go, but that's okay.  It was interesting anyways.

But is practicing Czerny and scales a waste of time just like how everyone says that poor Hanon is a waste of time?

[j_menz]

I don't think that they're a waste of time, in that they will develop some useful aspects of technique.  I also don't think that they are the only, or possibly even the best, way of learning those things. Neither are they the complete story.

I never did either more than very cursorily. Sometimes that means I make mistakes I would not make if I had spent more time and effort on them, but likewise there are other things I don't make mistakes with that I learnt in the freed up time.

[ajspiano]

Your other thread did go fairly off-track.. partly my fault, sorry about that.

I don't feel that czerny/hanon is a waste of time, just that as j_menz delicately pointed out, there are better ways to learn the exact same things.

Scales on the other hand are completely invaluable as far as I'm concerned, and can be practiced in advanced patterns that make them not only valuable technically but theoretically and musically as well.

the traditional 4 octaves up and down, while perhaps a reasonable technical starting point does not constitute what I would consider good scale practice for someone at your level. As even the most basic starting point for something more useful I would consider playing something along the lines of LH plays the arpeggio in quavers, RH plays the scale in semiquavers for the ascent, swap for the decent.

...or, play a scale ascending and descending in a pattern such as 13243546 (scale degrees) - change key every few notes following a progression such as the cycle of 5ths, alternating between major and minor. - i'm just making this stuff up, create your own idea that sounds good to you.

[jesc]

If you have the time to study them then do so.

If there's any reliable use I have for hanon: it is when my hands haven't been playing for a long time and I need a sort of springboard to jumpstart my muscles.

The notion of it being a waste of time may come when one is under pressure. For example, I'm quite pressed for time polishing all my pieces for my recital. Clearly, right now I'm not doing Hanon but I'm tackling my pieces directly.

[elenka]

It depends on a lot of things....how long have you been playing? I see that you're working on Hanon and Czerny but which one of his works? School of velocity or school of mechanism?

[danhuyle]

Scales isn't a waste of time. There's plenty of pieces with scales in them. If Czerny can help me play or develop something required for another piece, then it's not really a waste of time.

For example, Czerny Study Op299 No22 is a study in repeated notes. That helped me get through the repeated notes part of La Campanella. I knew that if I couldn't do it in Czerny, there's no way I could do it in La Campanella. The same study can develop technique for Scarlatti Sonata in D minor (the repeated notes one).

Is it worth learning? You be the judge.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Your other thread did go fairly off-track.. partly my fault, sorry about that.

I don't feel that czerny/hanon is a waste of time, just that as j_menz delicately pointed out, there are better ways to learn the exact same things.

Scales on the other hand are completely invaluable as far as I'm concerned, and can be practiced in advanced patterns that make them not only valuable technically but theoretically and musically as well.

the traditional 4 octaves up and down, while perhaps a reasonable technical starting point does not constitute what I would consider good scale practice for someone at your level. As even the most basic starting point for something more useful I would consider playing something along the lines of LH plays the arpeggio in quavers, RH plays the scale in semiquavers for the ascent, swap for the decent.

...or, play a scale ascending and descending in a pattern such as 13243546 (scale degrees) - change key every few notes following a progression such as the cycle of 5ths, alternating between major and minor. - i'm just making this stuff up, create your own idea that sounds good to you.

Aaah don't worry about it.  It was interesting anyways.

But yeah I'll definitely try making some stuff up!

[iratior]

Here's how I've made playing the scales more interesting and challenging:  play each note twice -- instead of CDEFGABC done fast, do CCDDEEFFGGAABBCCDDEEFFGGAABBC even faster.

[49410enrique]

i feel like they're fine as an adjunct, i.e as long as you don't devote time and energy at the expense of working on other works. my background tends to be the pieces/works themselves (carefully chosen for learning opportunities/technical and musical challenges that must be worked out) will provide the best bang for your buck, but if a particular study compliments or is similar to some of your repertoire i could see it enhancing and helping the learning process.  just a thought. in the end if you think its a waste of time you've already made up your mind and youre right it is...

[jmanpno]

I don't think that they're a waste of time, in that they will develop some useful aspects of technique.  I also don't think that they are the only, or possibly even the best, way of learning those things. Neither are they the complete story.

I never did either more than very cursorily. Sometimes that means I make mistakes I would not make if I had spent more time and effort on them, but likewise there are other things I don't make mistakes with that I learnt in the freed up time.

oh yes, the git who can hardly memorize to save his soul weighs in.... twats!

[j_menz]

oh yes, the git who can hardly memorize to save his soul weighs in.... twats!

Not sure what that has to do with Czerny and Hanon.

Sorry to see you're back off your meds.

[thalbergmad]

Czerny's compositions are excellent for developing a good all round technique and they are a fair bit prettier as well.

I often play his works, so that I never need to touch the exercises.

Thal

[j_menz]

Czerny's compositions are excellent for developing a good all round technique and they are a fair bit prettier as well.

I often play his works, so that I never need to touch the exercises.

Thal

I only know Czerny from his exercises (a very brief acquiantance).  Maybe that's been unfair (I mean, if I only knew Brahms from his exercises.... *shudders*).

I'll have to have a play around.

[thalbergmad]

I started off with the Variations Op.12, Op,14, Op.33 & Op.73.

Nothing profound here, but there is something refreshing about Czerny and perhaps even witty.

Thal

[j_menz]

Thanks, Thal. Have downloaded what I can.  Sometimes a little refreshment is good.

[rachchopin]

It's not entirely a "waste of time" but there are different ways to learn and develop technique. 3 scales a day is good enough and yes, you don't entirely have to do Czerny.

[iratior]

IMHO the main reason to do scales is to gain a better sense of how it feels to play in all the keys.  But there are many other creative ways of doing that.  Bach four-part chorales and little preludes can be transposed.  In this way, not only technique but also familiarity with music theory can be sharpened.  One of my exercises lately has been to do measures 27-28 of the Chopin etude in thirds in all the keys.

[pianoman53]

In iratior's humble opinion, op 10/5 is also on top 5 "difficult Chopin studies".

You can say what you want, that scales are a waste of time, and so on. But statistics speaks for itself. Of all amazing pianists out there, there will be like 10% who can't play scales. The rest will for sure have scales as their standard warm up or technical exercises.

[pts1]

I'm really surprised there's any controversy about this.

Scales and arpeggios are the foundation of moving about the keyboard and the vast majority of compositions from the baroque era to the present is FULL of them.

You are wasting your time by NOT fluently learning and practicing all the scales and arpeggios. Czerny is optional.

Scales and arpeggios (and trills and tremolos) are FANTASTIC for piano technique, and likewise, they are also the basis of nearly all etudes and studies. (then of course there are double thirds, octaves and so on.)

If you don't learn them, then you're not a serious pianist. Period.

[milchh]

Scales and arpeggios are the foundation of moving about the keyboard and the vast majority of compositions from the baroque era to the present is FULL of them.
...
If you don't learn them, then you're not a serious pianist. Period.

I was actually going to mention this. You beat me to it, pts1.

Something to consider is that when you think of simply "playing" scales/arpeggios/Czerny, etc. with the idea that you're magically going to improve your technique, you're wrong. The whole goal behind practicing scales and technique is to seriously work on how you're playing the instrument. Just like how you would spend hours of time working on memorization and working-out hard passages in a real piece of music, scales are supposed to studied with focus and (possibly even more) vigor with that of a piece.

Every professional out there plays scales and works on their technique daily, or at least every other day. It's something that everyone who is serious about the instrument does, and doesn't question it because it works, and it has worked since the dawn of keyboard pedagogy and study.

Milchh

[iratior]

"It is never worth a first class man's time to express a majority opinion.  By definition, there are plenty of others to do that."  -- G. H. Hardy (British mathematician)

And so it is with my ranking Chopin opus 10 no. 5 as one of the five most difficult etudes.

[doudly]

Hmm, in a french interview, Martha Argerich claimed that she stopped learning scales and arpeggios as soon as she became more independent in her practice (after her early years, when her teachers were pushing it on her) and that most of the time they weren't especially useful in developing a general technique that's applicable to other pieces or exercises. 

[ted]

Just try it, in moderation, for a few months. If playing scales and exercises improves your dexterity in the direction of your musical preference, enhances the sort of music you want to play for the rest of your life, then it is not a waste of time. If it leads to no benefit after a reasonable time, or if it just results in your playing glassy smooth, ninety miles an hour scales and nothing else, then stop doing it and invent your own exercises more conducive to musical expression. When young I wasted an appalling amount of time on perfecting particular movements completely irrelevant to my chosen modes of musical creation.