DEBATE - Toccata

[hoohah2]

Yes, I know.. Another one of these "which is the harder piece" topic. 

I'm just really curious on your opinions of the following pieces - technically, musically etc etc. :

Toccata, opus 11 - Prokofiev
Toccata, opus 7 - Schumann
Toccata (Pour le piano) - Debussy
Toccata (Le Tombeau de Couperin) - Ravel

[49410enrique]

why oh why would we not include the kapustin op 40 no 3?....i tear up when i see it omitted from a great tocatta list....

ok now that that's out of my system, i honestly don't see any of them being way harder technically than the other i think you've listed some phenomal all difficult pieces. i know it's not what you're after but waht you'll find harder others will breeze through and probably vice versa. the best thing is for you to get the scores to each one and study them, analyze the, read along with multiple recordings of each and you should get a pretty good 'gut' feel on which would give you more of a challenge, if you're still left wanting, you can always read through different parts that usually clears things ups real quick.

[perfect_pitch]

HOW is it I've gone this long in piano without playing any KAPUSTIN???

Damn - that was a hell of a toccata (or toccatina) I should say. I should get some of his music and see what he has to offer.

[birba]

It's a wonderful piece!  Played quite often over here.  The ravel is impossible, the Prokofiev, almost impossible, the schumann, a female pregnant dog and the Debussy accessible.  at least, that's how I rate them. 

[birba]

Sorry, I used the wrong terminology to describe the schumann toccata!    At any rate, since when does a b.... have to be pregnant?!

[lostinidlewonder]

HOW is it I've gone this long in piano without playing any KAPUSTIN???

Damn - that was a hell of a toccata (or toccatina) I should say. I should get some of his music and see what he has to offer.

His music is very rhythmic and to me is like well written jazz improvisation. Once you crack his phrases the playing feels so pianistically comfortable, that is one thing i have loved about Kasputin, very pianistic writing which feels good on the fingers (even though he can present intricate rhythms and difficult technique).

Too bad his music is all copyright otherwise I would be playing in publically often, he is just reserved for private playing and perhaps sneak him in for an encore So you haven't missed out much in not playing him, performance wise.

[birba]

There's a wonderful toccata by a female russian composer, Sofia Gubaidulina.  A real rip-roaring crowd pleaser.

[49410enrique]

His music is very rhythmic and to me is like well written jazz improvisation. Once you crack his phrases the playing feels so pianistically comfortable, that is one thing i have loved about Kasputin, very pianistic writing which feels good on the fingers (even though he can present intricate rhythms and difficult technique).

Too bad his music is all copyright otherwise I would be playing in publically often, he is just reserved for private playing and perhaps sneak him in for an encore So you haven't missed out much in not playing him, performance wise.

well said, he really doesn't consider himself a 'jazz pianist', really his training and technique stems from a more 'classical' tradition (my understanding is that he and Horowitz shared a common teacher in the past..."...Avrelian Rubakh (pupil of Felix Blumenfeld who also taught Simon Barere and Vladimir Horowitz...."..."I was never a jazz musician. I never tried to be a real jazz pianist, but I had to do it because of the composing. I’m not interested in improvisation–and what is a jazz musician without improvisation? All my improvisation is written, of course, and they become much better; it improved them." (Anderson, p.94-6)....

Read more: https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Jun02/Kapustin.htm#ixzz1od5ioGn6...."

as for copyright issues, it's my understanding that as long as you purchase the music (i.e. legally acquire via appropriate channels ) and you notify them in writing of a public non commericial performance (i.e. maybe a 'free recital or present as repertoire in a legitamate piano competition) you should be okay just make sure you give credit to the CR holder in the program notes and that you're not profitting from the music in violation of copyright law.


@ birba, lol you beat me to it

https://www.tutti.co.uk/sheet-music/8-concert-etudes-op-40-MUST-M-708036067

https://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Kapustin-Nikolaj-Girshevich-Concert-Etudes-8-Op-40-Piano/900390

[fftransform]

It's going to depend on the tempo at which you want to play them.  The Debussy can be dismissed a priori from this debate; it is not comparable to the other three.  The Schumann can be played acceptably at a wide variety of tempi, the Prokofiev and Ravel less-so.  If you want to play a 4:30 Schumann Toccata, it could very well be the most difficult; the Prokofiev and Ravel are closer in difficulty, but they have very different challenges.  I think for the majority of people the Prokofiev will be more difficult; the number of errors you'll hear in an average performance of the Prokofiev vs. an average performance of the Ravel testifies to this.  If you want to play the Schumann at Cziffra speed, then the Schumann is probably more difficult than the Prokofiev; if you want to get it in around the 6' mark, the Prokofiev is almost certainly more difficult.

[symphonicdance]

It is interesting that according to Trinity (UK) Diploma Exam syllabus,

Debussy's Toccata (from Pour le Piano), Ravel's Toccata (from Le tombeau de Couperin), Prokofiev's Toccata Op 11, Sancan's Toccata and Casella's Toccata Op 6 are in the Licentiate syallbus;

whereas

Schumann's Toccata Op 7 is in the Fellowship syllabus.

However, the rating does not only reflect the difficulty of the technical part of the piece but also the musical aspect of it.

Kapustin's Toccatina is not listed there, but I would believe that if a candidate applies for approval, it (and the other 7 concert etudes Op 40) will likely be accepted for the Licentiate exam at least, if not the Fellowship exam.

[richard_strauss]

You're missing Ginastera as well as Balakirev

[mingusmonk]

I am unaware that one cannot perform the works of living composers (copyright works) without permission.  I can't imagine that any composer would want to restrict the performance of his/her works as the exposure would only make him/her more popular.  Certainly, if making recordings for profit I would imagine one would need permission.  Perhaps someone knowledgeable on this site can educate us on this.

[mingusmonk]

And, are all "cover bands" technically in violation if they don't get permission from the 25 or so composers'/performers' whose songs they are covering?  What about the lounge singer at the piano bar?

[richard_strauss]

Indeed, it's also illegal to play cds or videos in a restaurant or a bar without paying for a license or even use copyrighted music as music-on-hold. Here you have more information on public performance rights and licensing:

https://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx


PS: It doesn't discuss it there, but probably the movies played in flights are also in violation of the copyright law.

[49410enrique]

york bowen had an incredible reputation as a pianist and is considered a sort of modern 'british rachmaninoff' in many regards with respect to his composing and piano writting.  he died in 1961 so his music became public domain (50 years post composer'd death) last year/2011. i would post a score to read along but mine says in big letters 1996 copyright, any photocopying is illegal, so i'm not sure if it is referring to the edition or some international renewal of the copyright

his toccatta op 155  is really nice!(you read that right, incredible compositional output for piano,  solo and ensemble/group strings, etc).

really like this

[adari]

Alkan's Toccatinas are outstanding :

[49410enrique]

really into Ned Rorem as of late. His first sonata is so interesting.
mvt 3 toccata

[scottmcc]

Indeed, it's also illegal to play cds or videos in a restaurant or a bar without paying for a license or even use copyrighted music as music-on-hold. Here you have more information on public performance rights and licensing:

https://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx


PS: It doesn't discuss it there, but probably the movies played in flights are also in violation of the copyright law.

All of those movies are licensed, at great cost mind you.

As a musician, I find it troubling that other musicians would sell you a score to a work but then not want you to play it. Shouldn't the sale of the score constitute a license to use it?  I'm all for protecting the intellectual property of the creators, but seriously, when is enough enough? 

[49410enrique]

All of those movies are licensed, at great cost mind you.

As a musician, I find it troubling that other musicians would sell you a score to a work but then not want you to play it. Shouldn't the sale of the score constitute a license to use it?  I'm all for protecting the intellectual property of the creators, but seriously, when is enough enough? 

i believe those instances are because there it is being used in a business, i.e to gain or generate income.

if a musician purchases a score and does a free program and gives all the right credits to the composer, arranger, etc. i think that kind of 'non commercial' use is essentialy 'personal' which  is okay unless the work explicity states that persmission must be obtained before any public performance or presentation

[scottmcc]

i believe those instances are because there it is being used in a business, i.e to gain or generate income.

if a musician purchases a score and does a free program and gives all the right credits to the composer, arranger, etc. i think that kind of 'non commercial' use is essentialy 'personal' which  is okay unless the work explicity states that persmission must be obtained before any public performance or presentation

yes, but what if your free program gets you noticed by some record-company guy who wants to sign you to a big-time deal?  now you've been hosed by the intellectual property goblins!  and seriously, what's the point of buying a score if you can't even play it without asking someone permission?  it just seems ridiculous to me.  sure, the composer should get well compensated for writing good music, but shouldn't that be built into the commission for writing the work, and the royalties for sale of the score, and the royalties for sales of any recordings?  how many different times should the composer take a cut?  (please note--I'm being argumentative, purely for the sake of fleshing out the discussion.  most composers are starving, even the good ones, and should really get more money for what they do.  but I still disagree with the system for how they get paid)

anyway, back to the question of the thread.  surely there's at least one bach toccata worthy of mention?

and while I can't really comment on the relative difficulties of any of the listed toccatas (they're all way beyond the level where it matters to me at least), I must say that in general when it comes to listening to them I would go ravel/debussy tie, then prok, schumann last.  but that's just me, your results may vary.