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Topic: Stop Press: Otto Ortmann Reveals Fallacy of Relaxation Schools!  (Read 5831 times)

Offline nyiregyhazi

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A trans-fixation movement is simply one where the fixated joint is moving.  In this case the knuckle (the fixated joint) is moving because it is attached to the hand which is moving at the wrist.  Do the same finger movement with the hand held still and you'll find the knuckle is also still.

My knuckle is not fixated. If it were, the finger wouldn't be able to move from it. It's pulling back as the movement progresses and the finger is pushing it up. It's not remotely static. Being balanced in space and fixed into immovability are two totally different issues. Even in places where the finger becomes almost still (which is not the case in my demonstration), it's intent to move that produces effective balance. Intent to fixate produces severe clenching (which is actually less effective at preventing movements in the unwanted direction than simply moving in the wanted direction).

Please upload a video of octaves being played with completely static fingers and thumb.

Offline keyboardclass

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Lets put it this way - the fingertip is the first to meet with the resistance of the key.  You have two choices - preserve it's shape or collapse - you collapse.  Next, the middle joint meets the resistance, again two choices - you collapse.  Next the knuckle meets the resistance - does it collapse?  No, it preserves its shape (fixation).

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Lets put it this way - the fingertip is the first to meet with the resistance of the key.  You have two choices - preserve it's shape or collapse - you collapse.  Next, the middle joint meets the resistance, again two choices - you collapse.  Next the knuckle meets the resistance - does it collapse?  No, it preserves its shape (fixation).

This is a false dichotomy. When doing a press, up, does your elbow collapse? But is it fixated (either in space, or in terms of the angle formed by the upper arm and forearm)?  No, it's being moved in the opposite direction to collapse. The shape of my finger is not preserved either. Its joints act to straighten it out- just like the elbow. Neither is an issue of fixation. No matter how you phrase it, something which is moving cannot be referred to as having been fixated and neither can intent to fixate produced the desired result. Fixation is the antithesis of movement.

If you want to fixate, then be my guest. I'd like to see a video of it in action. However, it's not needed.

Offline keyboardclass

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This is a false dichotomy. When doing a press, up, does your elbow collapse? But is it fixated (either in space, or in terms of the angle formed by the upper arm and forearm)?  No, it's being moved in the opposite direction to collapse.
So you don't personally start a pushup?  Hmm.  You must be always on the move!

Offline nyiregyhazi

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So you don't personally start a pushup?  Hmm.  You must be always on the move!

When I play octaves, I certainly am. It equivalent to the movement in a push up, but I don't act upon the key with any mass until I'm already moving through it. There's no equivalent to stopping at the bottom of a press-up. For speed, the hand creates a push-off AWAY from the key (which both moves it and contributes to preparation for the next in one single act)- which can only occur via movement in the hand.

Look at the space between my thumb and 2nd finger in the left hand. Does that look constant to you? Can you honestly not see the movement that causes the keys to go down? It's not a fixed shape.

Offline keyboardclass

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Look mush, either you're talking about pushups or you're talking about octaves?  May I add, the pinky example (as you bring your forearm toward the fallboard) also has fixation at the shoulder.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Look mush, either you're talking about pushups or you're talking about octaves?  May I add, the pinky example (as you bring your forearm toward the fallboard) also has fixation at the shoulder.

I'm talking about both. So a moving shoulder joint is also fixated now? Do you not understand that something which is moving is not fixed- by definition? If you're not interested in actually thinking, we should leave this here. You seem to think that something can only be limp or fixated- and that anything that is not limp is therefore fixed. That's a sorry way of simplifying how joints behave.

You can argue as much as you like- but my demonstration proves that there's no need for fixation of any joints in producing tone. Ortmann was wrong. Fixation is not "needed"- because movement in a suitable direction is equally adept at preventing collapse (well, a good deal better, actually).

Offline keyboardclass

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You can argue as much as you like- but my demonstration proves that there's no need for fixation of any joints in producing tone.
If you can't see how your knuckle is fixated (otherwise it would have collapsed) then what can I say?

Offline nyiregyhazi

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If you can't see how your knuckle is fixated (otherwise it would have collapsed) then what can I say?

Just like an athlete must "fixate" their hips and legs while running, to stop their knees collapsing? You are an ignoramus. You need to get a dictionary out and look up what fixation is. To use it in reference to an act of movement is deranged and ignorant.

Offline keyboardclass

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Why can't you just stick to the subject?  You went to put the key down with your pinky, the nail joint collapsed as you decided not to support its structure.  Then the middle joint collapsed for the same reason but the third joint cried wee, wee, wee, wee all the way home!  Good night.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Why can't you just stick to the subject?  You went to put the key down with your pinky, the nail joint collapsed as you decided not to support its structure.  Then the middle joint collapsed for the same reason but the third joint cried wee, wee, wee all the way home!  Good night.

It did not collapse. It pushed the rest of the finger up and away from it. Collapse is an abrupt downward sag that interferes with efficiency. When the joints straighten upwards and away from the tip the effect is positive.

Anyway, you're clearing just trolling again. Until you upload a film to demonstrate fast octaves played with a fixated and utterly immoblised hand, I have no further interest. You don't enter into debate within any intent think seriously about the issues or to learn anything, so there's no point wasting time on trying to illusrate Ortmann's fallacy to you. If you think moving joints must be fixated not to collapse, you're welcome to believe this bogus pseudo-science.


Offline thalbergmad

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Forget all this bollox.

Just sit down and play ;D

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline birba

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You took the words right out of my mouth.
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