Chopin Etude op. 10 no. 1

[pianowolfi]

Not perfect, not finished, many wrong notes. But I think there's at least "something" that I always felt in this Etude, that I am maybe starting to communicate with this recording.

[costicina]

What a beautiful performance, Wolfi!!!!
  You succeed indeed to communicate more than "something"!!!!

I enjoyed so much listening to it because the musical content prevails over the "etudistic" aspect, because you  make the piece alive, vibrant, sparkling. Who the hell does care about wrong notes? 
You did Music with the capital M....
Thank you very much for sharing this jewel

Marg

[zheer]

This etude isn't difficult to play, its impossible to play, God knows how you managed to learn it, I read some-where Horwitz saying he couldn't play it.

Anyway, re-post it in a years time, should be interesting.

[chuck75]

Indeed, a wonderful performance -- meaningful with heartfelt brilliance. I very much enjoyed the listening. Thank you.

[johnmar78]

Good work Wolfi
,,heeeeee going thru a stage of hard mental work . keep up.
 One important thing, I usually sweep RH 8 notes a group and eventually counts 16 then 32 to keep it smooth sweep. Try that.

Keep up your good performance.....

[rachfan]

Bravo, wolfi!  Whether it needs a bit of refinement here or there is unimportant.  You've shown the rest of us how to play this "impossible" etude.  Thanks for that!  I admire your artistry.

David

[pianowolfi]

Thank you all! @Zheer, yes I'll do it again in year's time, good suggestion!
This Etude makes addicted. 

[cbreemer]

Great job ! The slips are not such that they distract from the overall good impression. Good tempo and drive. I envy anybody who sails so smoothly though this hellish etude. I've tried and tried but it just causes too much fatigue in the RH muscles.

[pianowolfi]

Great job ! The slips are not such that they distract from the overall good impression. Good tempo and drive. I envy anybody who sails so smoothly though this hellish etude. I've tried and tried but it just causes too much fatigue in the RH muscles.

Thank you so much for your comment, cbreemer!  

In the beginning it tends to cause fatigue and tension, and after months or even years of practicing you have still to be cautious! But, as you say, it's all about finding the "sailing mode"! That's the secret, you speak it out !

I don't think that I have got it for granted, I am still so often looking for it, sometimes I feel like I've got it, sometimes (rather often, unfortunately ) it would just disappear alltogether!  

I have experimented and thought a lot about the specific movements for every measure, about how to get from A to B as fast and as smoothly as possible. After a while of slow practice I just try to let it *sail* . If it doesn't work yet I'll come back to thinking, slow practicing, meditating on the harmonic progressions and so on.

And, while I have no "official solution" for learning this etude (since I am mainly still struggling with it) I although tend towards the theory that if there is a significant imbalance towards tension, fatigue, or pain, there must be something to resolve.

[goldentone]

That was great, Wolfi!  This etude I have only heard once or twice.  
You make me want to take it up.

[ans_]

Thanks, that was wonderful!
Great phrasing, the harmonies are clear and crisp, it has so much sense emotionally

As my teacher always says:
There are no etudes, there is just music

Mark

[pianowolfi]

Goldy, thank you so much! Be prepared for a long journey, I got so many times completely frustrated and it's not over, I'm afraid there will come many more frustrating moments! Maybe the three keys to this etude (and even much more so for op. 10, 2) are: stay close to the keys, try to find the most relaxed way to play it, and infinite patience (of course including thousands of slow practice sessions)

Thank you so much ans_! That means a lot to me, coming from such a great Scriabin interpreter! I just went to your post history and found your fourth sonata, I love it!!

[birba]

How the h... did I miss this?!  Alright!!!  You really did make something out of this beast!  I gave up trying to play this thing YEARS ago.  Great playing, Wolfi.

[pianowolfi]

Birba, thank you so much! I won't say *how many times* I felt like giving up on this etude ! It can be a humbling experience. But, as I said above, it can make addicted  

[dreamer66]

Great Job!  I am envious.  This piece has captured my heart since the first time I heard it.  I have listened to numerous recordings of it.  The question is, how do I get into that "sail mode?"  I do NOT believe that this not about one's ability to somehow "stretch" to ensure all the notes are properly played.  I think there is some type of "zone" or "sail mode" wherein one's fingers and wrists and arms and even one's torso are lined up properly to cascade up and down the keyboard.  Anyways, I need to start from the beginning.  My goal is to first memorize the first page.  After that the question is..how to line up ones hands and wrists properly to eliminate friction or drag and to promote..smooth movement up and down the keyboard.

Can you help?
thanks.. 

[ajspiano]

Great to watch wolfi, much respect for this performance. - I'm working on it myself at the moment and while I can play the majority of it, there are ofcourse some really tough sections that take a tremendous amount of work to bring to a satisfactory level. I find bar 30-32 to most frustrating in the whole piece.

I have experimented and thought a lot about the specific movements for every measure, about how to get from A to B as fast and as smoothly as possible. After a while of slow practice I just try to let it *sail*  . If it doesn't work yet I'll come back to thinking, slow practicing, meditating on the harmonic progressions and so on.

This has been a large part of my work on it - I find it interesting how much difference in motion there can be (or perhaps rather, how much of an impact slightly different motion causes) - case in point. Initially, once I'd got my head (and the rest of me) around the first bar, i discovered that the bar in the next section that is similar - CGCD - which I thought would be fairly easy as a result of the first bars work, was infact significantly harder for me at first, and again, the following DGDE - another slight variation (to CGCD) posed a significant challenge once at a reasonable tempo..  and yet now I consider these the easier bars..

I've also played most bars, and a number of 2 ,4 or 8 bar groups in all 12 keys..

[frankiisko]

This Etude makes addicted.

I totally agree with you. I'm working on this Étude too and I can say I can't stop playing it! Even when I'm practising other piano pieces, I stop for few minutes and play this piece twice or three times.

I really love 


When you will be able to play it faster and keeping the correct notes (and if you also like/love this Étude) I suggest you to play Godowsky's versions on this piece. Left hand version and both hand in contrary motion version (look for it on Youtube)

Godowsky was really insane 

I've liked your perfomance (maybe the pause between the end of the arpeggio [right hand] with the octave [left hand] was too big, but i've liked anyway) 

[hakki]

Very good effort.

Of course there is more than "something" in your playing. IMO, you grabbed the essence of this etude very well.

As for the wrong notes, I remember posting this etude back in 2007, and had got some unpleasant comments about how I could dare to post it with wrong notes. Since then, I have decided not to post it again until it is note perfect. I haven't given up yet, and still hope to post it once more.

Nevertheless, I enjoyed listening. Thanks for sharing.
I wish the best of luck with this beast.

regards,

Hakki.

[pianowolfi]

Wow, thanks to all for listening and commenting!

@ dreamer 66: Now I'm not sure whether you *think* it's a matter of stretching or not?
I think it's a matter of streching from one note to the next, but not from the bottom (thumb) note through the whole chord. It has helped me a lot to practice it slowly and legato, keep the fingers as close as possible to the keys and keep the thumb very flexible. The hand needs to adapt to the specific movements, so I recommend not to overdo practicing within the first few weeks.

@ajspiano: the measures 30-32 and 35-36 are really tough.
I found these two videos very helpful:

&lr=1

Honestly they encouraged me to give this piece another try. Well, rather like a few zillions of more tries  

In the second one Paul Barton demonstrates especially his practice methods for those "gruesome bars", I have tried them all out and practiced them for a while and I found them helpful.

Of course, if you watch those videos, it seems like all this could be done in a few days, but it's rather months, or years.

@ frankiisko: thank you so much for your comments! I know Godowsky's versions, but so far I couldn't warm towards them. I very much respect those who tackle them, but I prefer Chopin's originals. To me they are similar to Bach, especially op. 10 no1, no.2 and no. 4. There is not one single unnecessary note in them.
I am thinking and experimenting about that pause between the end of the arpeggio [right hand] and the left hand octave.

@ Hakki: thank you very much for listening and for your comments!
I think it's really difficult to play this Etude note-perfect. Even Ashkenazy in his legendary live performance has one minor slip! I listened to it in slow motion and I think it's really ONLY one! Which is legendary, of course.
 
I also hope I can post a better version than this one in the future. It's a lot about relaxation and letting it flow (and unleash the fire), but you need a lot of preparation to get to that point.

[furtwaengler]

Wolfi I listened to this when you first posted but have not had much time to be on (in?) the (piano)street. I commend your efforts in an tremendously difficult piece. We need to start this Chopin etudes project up again soon! I've been thinking about the "stretch" discussion with dreamer 66. There is one passage I would have to cheat to play in the etude (such as momentarily breaking the idea of the etude). And that if memory serves is the descending E-flat, A-flat, E-flat, C or something like that. The span of the middle of my hand is small indeed, and I would have to find a way around that. It's interesting, in practicing the Schumann Toccata in the past week, I find the best way to execute the left hand descending 5ths passages towards the end is to rotate 1-2-3-5 in the exact manner of the right hand in Chopin op. 10 no. 1 - I find myself really wishing Chopin hand done more with the left hand in that regard. It's funny though, between the Schumann passages and the Chopin etude they're is an opposite technical effect where the Chopin is essentially an etude for the pinky and the Schumann is totally anchored by the thumb.

Ah well, I always love your playing, Wolfi. Its a masculine, meaty, highly musical rendition!

[pianowolfi]

Thank you so much Dave!  
Now I find myself thinking a lot about that descending passage you mention, and experimenting with it. Perhaps I may come up with some ideas after a while. I don't really think that you need a particularly wide span in the middle of your hand, especially if you're having no problem with M. 11-12 and 15. But of course this is one of the very difficult spots in this Etude!

[ted]

You play it as if it means something to you, Wolfi, and to my untrained mind and ears that makes all the difference in a world of expanding technical brilliance and shrinking soul. Even though I no longer care much for classical music, that quality shines through. You are playing it because you simply enjoy the music, the sound, not to show how dextrous your right hand is or how few wrong notes you manage. In the end that is all that matters, and may you continue playing and enjoying it for decades to come.

[pianowolfi]

You and untrained ears? I can't believe my eyes!
Yes it means a lot to me, definitely, I love the harmonies and I can't ever get enough of them

[candlelightpiano]

WOW!!!  I'm speechless!!!!  Your right hand flying over the keys like an acrobat in the clouds is unbelievable to look at!  I was spellbound!  How did I miss this performance?  Were you going at full speed?  Are you a concert pianist?  Fantastic performance!! 

[ajspiano]

I remember posting this etude back in 2007... ...I have decided not to post it again until it is note perfect... ...still hope to post it once more.

Doesn't that just paint a picture of how monumental the challenge of this etude is - I'm not even 2 months in yet (6 days to go)

..maybe I'll post a 2 or 3 month version and then a 6 month.. and then be something satisfactory in 2015.

I watched those paul barton videos wolfi - i noted that he's demonstrating just 1 or 2 of cortots exercises for the piece, I've found cortot's edition very helpful. Those trouble bars, 30-32 are finally starting to come together over the last few days having utilised most of cortot's ideas.

[candlelightpiano]

In the beginning it tends to cause fatigue and tension, and after months or even years of practicing you have still to be cautious!

Pianowolfi:  Will the fatigue and tension go away after months or even years of practicing?  Do you feel fatigued now when you play this piece?  How did you get rid of the tension?

[iratior]

pianowolfi has done really good work with this etude.  It's SO hard.  When I first started to learn it at age 13, I couldn't do more than the first page without getting hopelessly fatigued.  My teacher used to say proper wrist movement was necessary, although with what I've discovered is a discouragingly typical characteristic of such advice, she didn't say precisely WHAT wrist movement would do it.  By now, I've figured out how to do the etude all the way through, without getting fatigued;  I guess that's progress.  But my wrist, elbow, indeed, whole arm are in vigorous motion, so I was surprised by how little motion besides finger movement pianowolfi needed to use.  And with such accuracy.  The only place I heard be a little rough was that killer arpeggio for an A-major chord.

[pianowolfi]

Pianowolfi:  Will the fatigue and tension go away after months or even years of practicing?  Do you feel fatigued now when you play this piece?  How did you get rid of the tension?

fatigue and tension won't go away from themselves, you have to resolve them through thinking and experimenting (Well at least I have to)
I don't feel fatigued now anymore and I can practice this piece for more than an hour, but of course 80 % of this is not up to speed practice.

[marik1]

I don't feel fatigued now anymore and I can practice this piece for more than an hour, but of course 80 % of this is not up to speed practice.

Which of course, is how it should be felt and practiced...

Really, this etude should feel cool and comfortable (as any of them). The main thing is to find a touch (and sound), where you feel very comfortable and all the finger work starts from the inside of the palm. There was another thread about "cheating". So to make a point, no cheating here, but just a wise distribution of energy--in other words--LH forte, with a nice a meaningful  melody lead and RH played with very light pianissimo, with a slight creschendo on top to create that energy and direction.

Indeed, the piano technique and virtuosity is all about precisely made calculation--not for nothing Einstein (and many great mathematicians and chess players) were playing music instruments...

Best, M  

[scottmcc]

Is this a return of marik?  Interesting. 

Anyway, wolfi, as others have said you've already made tremendous progress with one of the more difficult bits of the repertoire. Sadly I feel like the amount of effort you've expended so far will be exceeded by the amount of effort it will take to get this to be truly "perfect." but that doesn't make it any less worth it.  As always I enjoy listening, and keep up the good work.

[pianowolfi]

Thank you very much Marik, your advice and thoughts are indeed very helpful to me! I'll keep working in the sense you pointed out to me.

Thank you scottmc for listening and commenting!

 That means I will practice another 60 hours or more, which, all in all, doesn't seem all too much! Well, this is only my compound time schedule since 8 months for this Etude, I actually practiced more, let's say another 40 hours or so, before joining compound time, so I guess it will take me about 120 more hours to get to perfection.

(Of course I know it's not possible to do such a calculation, but sometimes it's fun! )

[danhuyle]

nicely played. What metronome speed are you playing this etude? It's so then I know what to aim for and know the technique. Then when I practice it slow it will be easier.

Despite the wrong notes, you still got through. At least now you're not affected by the technique.

Keep up the good work and look forward to an even better recording.

[pianowolfi]

Hi Danhuyle, thanks for your comments

well I used to practice with the metronome reguarly up to quarters=144 and sometimes I did tryouts at 152, 160, 176 but those were not yet really stable. Anyway, from a certain point I forget the metronome and either it works or it goes wrong. If it goes wrong I go back to much slower tempi.

I hit a wall at 120, for months. Now that seems quite okay once I have reached the necessary warmed up state.