1902 Bluthner 6'3" vs. 1910 Baldwin

[gvans]

A piano dealer I respect has a completely rebuilt 1902 Bluthner for sale at 21K. It has an art case with ornate legs (oh, well), no middle pedal, but has the usual aliquot stringing and that famous rich tone Debussy liked so much. I've hear a recording of the instrument, and it sounds great.

He also has a 1910 Baldwin, also 6'3", also an art case, also rebuilt, for 17.5k. This one also sounds fine on a digital recording.

Anybody have any thoughts re Bluthner's and/or Baldwins of that vintage? It's a long shlep for me to go play them, but I'm intrigued. He'll take my un-rebuilt 1925 Steinway M in on trade.

Thanks for your feedback.

Glenn

[pianolive]

You should ask if the piano has got the Blüthner Patent Action. If so you must be aware that it has a complete different touch than a "normal" mordern action. Blüthner used both actions to the middle 1920.
Another thing to think about is that some of these old Blüthners were not meant to be tuned in 440 but 435.
They can have a fantastic sound though!

[gvans]

Thanks much for the tips. I wonder how much tuning an A-335-scaled piano to A-440 will be a problem. A friend has an 1875 Steinway, 7', scaled to be tuned at A-335; he keeps it at A-440 and, frankly, to my ears it seems fine. I play a lot of chamber music so that could be a problem.

Re the action: I think you're right, that is the key. I've read some people that are not happy with certain Bluthner actions. Guess I'll have to go up and have a play.

Thanks again.

[flyinfingers]

Do you know where he purchases the parts he uses to rebuild the pianos, e.g., German vs. Japanese?  Also, did he replace the soundboard?  That is not always necessary and will add substantial costs.  I purchased a rebuilt 1901 Knabe and, although, I'm no expert, but I did research on this before my purchase.  I have a lovely piano and am very happy with it and it sounds beautiful and it was rebuilt using parts from Germany.  Just a thought....
I love my ornate legs on my piano.  I wanted some character but not too much.  Why don't you like the ornate legs? 

[gvans]

Thanks for your note, flyinfingers. Good point about the rebuilt--I hope the parts are German, we'll see. The soundboard, the soul of any piano, is original. I wouldn't buy a piano with a replaced soundboard, frankly.

The legs--oh, well, let's just say I like the classic art-deco look of my 1925 Steinway and modern pianos. But if it sound as good as I hope, and plays well, I'll get to love the legs, too.

Glenn

[flyinfingers]

The legs are like a woman!  At least they're tapered from the ankles!  Enjoy your piano!  I personally think you are better off buying a rebuilt, but I have no other experience.   I have the original soundboard, so your post made me happy!  

[pianolive]

Thanks much for the tips. I wonder how much tuning an A-335-scaled piano to A-440 will be a problem.

The problem is that the plate can breake.
Blüthner never payed much attention to scale design, so when rebuilding these pianos we usually recalculate the scale for a better sound and for the possibility to tune the piano at any pitch you want without having the plate broken.

If you go to test the piano and if it has got the old Patent Action, the action must be adjusted correctly for you to judge the touch.
To get a nice touch, many techs try to adjust the action to be like a modern action with the same hammerblow, key depth and aftertouch and end up with a bad touch which is not optimal for this action. 

[gvans]

The problem is that the plate can breake.

That is indeed a problem! thanks much for your insights.

[spb_jcb]

Glenn,

Be sure and find out if the Bluthner still has the original patent action as this will be an important thing to know. The Baldwin likely has the updated roller action. The patent action is fast (somewhat less control) but represents the essence of the vintage Bluthner.

I like both Bluthner and Baldwin. It is a matter of taste. Bluthner is voiced higher like most of the older European pianos.

Stephen

[gvans]

Hi Steven,

The Bluthner had a modern action. I played it extensively, and frankly, did not bond with the aliquot strings. Even after letting off the pedal, the piano continued to ring for several seconds. I did not care for it--as Mozart once said, "Silence is the canvas upon which music is painted." It's hard to get a moments silence with a Bluthner.

I prefer a clear, articulated style, with judicious pedalling. Even when playing Debussy (who apparently loved Bluthners), I felt as if I constantly had the sustain pedal depressed. And playing Beethoven or Mozart, the piano felt oppressively muddy. Just my opinion.

I ended up buying a very pristine 1982 Yamaha C7. Quite a difference, but I felt it would best answer my needs for a wide variety of repertoire. Also, it plays pp and p with ease, something Richter loved about it. Only downside: we almost died moving it up a flight of stairs. A very heavy instrument!

Anyhow, thanks much for your comment.

Glenn

[spb_jcb]

Glenn,
Sounds like you have a good one, the early 1980's Yamaha's are wonderful in my opinion and this is what my teacher has so I know it well. Enjoy.

Stephen

[gvans]

Thanks! It is a gem, and I'm lucky to own it.

[cuallito]

The older (pre WWII) Baldwins sound great, IMO. Glad you found a piano!

[hbofinger]

Another one who has fallen for a Yamaha C7!

(I did so a couple of months ago. Congratulations!)

[gvans]

It's in a very un-private spot in the living room, and I have very busy teenagers and wife, so I don't get to play it much--but when I do, it is like heaven on earth. It does what you ask of it, plays clearly or with a pedal wash, loud or soft, every nuance comes out. I now realize how a fine instrument really lets you grow as an interpreter. Casals spoke of the importance of making small crescendos and diminuendos, not written in the score, but created within each measure.

Now, with the C7, I feel I have total control and can bring such nuance to life.

What a piano! I am lucky to own such an instrument. I almost stumbled upon it, although I've played a C6 in concert several times--and loved it.

Glenn

[hbofinger]

It's in a very un-private spot in the living room, and I have very busy teenagers and wife, so I don't get to play it much--but when I do, it is like heaven on earth. It does what you ask of it, plays clearly or with a pedal wash, loud or soft, every nuance comes out. I now realize how a fine instrument really lets you grow as an interpreter. Casals spoke of the importance of making small crescendos and diminuendos, not written in the score, but created within each measure.

Now, with the C7, I feel I have total control and can bring such nuance to life.

What a piano! I am lucky to own such an instrument. I almost stumbled upon it, although I've played a C6 in concert several times--and loved it.

Glenn

Mine is a 1970, rebuilt last year in Japan (a so called grey market piano). The sound is tremendous, a very powerful piano. However, I can't really play quietly on it - I suspect I will have to replace the knuckles on it, they are original. My technician had lubricated them, and it was an improvement. Beyond this, I am really amazed how good this one is.

When I was studying piano at a preparatory division, I had a full fledged professor of piano. He was a real technique-Meister. He would look at me and say: "Why are you playing this quietly? A pianist always projects his sound. You play loudly, with full finger strength, and quiet passages you play less loudly. You play for the stage and build finger strength. You should never play quietly." He would love that Yamaha I now have! I also wonder how many pros agree with him.