Homosexuality

[tosca1]

My first response to Minute Waltz is, if homosexuality is a choice why then is it almost impossible for homosexuals to change to heterosexuals?  Homosexuals are a minority group and have suffered all kinds of opprobrium from the rest of society. Today, the level of discrimination against gay people even in some of  the most "civilised" countries is very disturbing. One of the main causes of suicide in young men is because of their gay sexual orientation. I do not believe that most people would choose a life style in which they can be ridiculed, threatened, despised and treated as social outcasts. No, "choice", "recruitment", "promotion" are words used in relation to homosexuality by the ignorant, the misinformed and homophobic people.


My other point about the "400% increase" in homosexuality during the "progressive liberal movement" is that as attitudes in some levels of society have become more open on matters of sexuality, more gay people have come "out".

Thank you,
Robert.

[Tony Bennett]

Well, this was my first x-mass out of the closet.  Unfortunately I’m not gay.  Apparently my relatives assume that as I’m 34, single, and play the piano, I must be.  Well, word finally got around to my parents (right wing Christian fundamentalists) and they are hot under the collar. It really doesn’t bother me as I don’t care what people think, and am not close to my relatives.  I think “the folks” want to raise a stink about it by calling or writing people.  I really don’t think you can change what people believe.  Any thoughts or comments?  The only thing that ticks me off is that it up sets my parents, and I think the rumor was started just for that purpose.

[dlu]

If homosexuality is a choice are you saying that all gay people are lying and saying that it wasn't a choice. IF it is a choise then is it a conscience choice? Unconsciense? Innate? Learned? What I am trying to say is that if it were that people chose to be gay then well, would they know it was a choice, or would it seem to them that they were born that way? Why does it really matter if it is a choice or not? And if it is some kind of mutation then are you saying shame on them for being born with a genetic mutation? If it is a choice then well, who cares!! what's the big deal? If people want to live the way that make people happy then so what? Humans are overpupulated anyway!! More power to them...choice or not (I speculate that it is NOT a choice...if you didn't get that from my unorganized rambling above).
DLu

[dlu]

Also, how does one know their sexual orientation anyway? Ask yourself: How do I know I am heterosexual (if you are that is...lol)? I don't know if this helps, but it is interesting to ponder...

[earthward]

i couldnt get dressed the way i do , i always had to enter the bathroom ... i could feel them looking at me the whole time ... woa .... and the both of them , are really nerds , they just cant stop looking at u with that kind of starring ... oh ...

Okay I completely understand you.  As gay guy I guess the equivalent would be having a woman stare at me naked. (Yikes, very uncomfortable.  )  But let's be fair: most hetero guys would stare too if there was a sexy lady getting naked in front of them. Right?!! Of course there are boundaries.  Once I saw this guy in the men's change room: he had positioned himself so he would have a perfect view of the naked guys showering and then he just sat and watched!  I was kinda shocked.   Anyway, I agree with you that it's the person that counts.  Good on ya!!

[astroboy]

*puts his hand up* Another homo pianist over here!! 

[ehpianist]

Well, this was my first x-mass out of the closet. Unfortunately I’m not gay. Apparently my relatives assume that as I’m 34, single, and play the piano, I must be.

Ooohh that gave me such a good laugh!  Hang in there Mr. Bennett.  Perhaps you should toy with your family.  Tell them "It's the piano, it made me gay"

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

[lagin]

Hi,  Please, I'm not trying to pick a fight or saying this just to argue, and I wouldn't have even replied if I could find someone else saying what I'm going to say.  I don't have an oppinion on homosexuality, but I have some truth.  It's wrong, not because I think so, but because God says so in the Bible.  I could list a ton of verses to back me up if I needed to.  Homosexuals say that they were born that way, but if they were really, I mean really, honest with themselves, they would admit that it was they're choice.  No, God does not love them less, nor does he love a murdered less for what he's done, but there will be consequences for our decisions.  I'm sure this post might get alot of defensive replies.  I'm not going to argue with you to prove who's right.  I just felt the need to speak the truth.  Truth is absolute.  It is not relevant.  If it were relevant, it wouldn't even exist.  It would be called an opinion instead, and my dad says opinions are like belly buttons--everyone has one!  If anyone is seriously interested, I'd be willing to converse, but I'm not into arguing for the sake of arguing.

[lenny]

why base your opinions on a ficitonal novel?

think for yourself!

seriously - even if you believe in 'god' you have a right to disagree

i know gay people - and if 'god' says they are wrong - then 'god' isnt exactly a nice entity.

[Brian Healey]

Amen!

Lagin, what makes you think that the Bible is the truth? 

I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in God, but the Bible is sort of a mess. First of all, it's not even complete. If all the gospels were included it would be about twice its normal size. Plus it's been rewritten numerous times by the Catholic Church, and you can bet they rewrote it in a way that best suited their purposes. Also, a lot of what the Bible depicts are adaptations from other religions and folk legends that are older than Catholicism. And I learned all that from a Bible class (at a Catholic school, no less). At this point, who's to say what's original and what isn't?

Just something to think about.


Peace,
Bri

[lenny]

also - no 'god' wrote the bible anyway

[Brian Healey]

Furthermore, let me just add that the reason our Bible teacher wanted us to know the real history of the Bible was not to lessen our faith, but strengthen it. The main lesson the teacher wanted us to learn from this was something along these lines:

The Bible is a story. There is great wisdom in the Bible, but in the end it is just that: a story. The guidance you receive from the Bible depends solely on your interpretation of it, but nothing in the Bible is "true" in and of itself. The Bible can only be interpreted in the vague sort of way that one interprets the works of Nostradamus or Lao-Tzu (or poetry, or any other work of fiction). True faith lies in the heart, not on a written page. Whatever you believe is the truth.


Peace,
Bri

[lenny]

who wrote the bible anyway? and how did they come up with the ideas?

hmmm its offtopic but very interesting, i heard about this 'da vinci code'

[kilini]

A discussion of homosexuality to the Bible. Surprise.

This is vaguely pseudo-philosophy. But I do agree with Bri.

[janice]

  I don't have an oppinion on homosexuality, but I have some truth.  It's wrong, not because I think so, but because God says so in the Bible. 

I agree with you, Lagin.  God says that practicing homosexuality is a sin.  Why did God say this, you might wonder.  He didn't say this to be a "cosmic killjoy".  He said it because He knows what is BEST for us, and what will bring us the most pleasure.  And I also agree, God loves the homosexual as much as He loves a hetrosexual.

[aquariuswb]

I agree with you, Lagin.  God says that practicing homosexuality is a sin.  Why did God say this, you might wonder.  He didn't say this to be a "cosmic killjoy".  He said it because He knows what is BEST for us, and what will bring us the most pleasure.  And I also agree, God loves the homosexual as much as He loves a hetrosexual.

Really? Did you hear God say that? Oh wait, no, you read it in a book... which was written by... oh yeah, PEOPLE. Furthermore, the books of the Bible were written at different times, and considering how long they've been around, you can bet your ass they've been edited and changed on more than a few occasions... not to mention that unless you're reading the Hebrew version of the Old Testament and the Ancient Greek version of the New Testament, much has been lost in the translation of what you're reading... but hey, let's not confuse ourselves with the facts... and I suppose that evolution is a conspiracy, too, eh?

[janice]

Check out this page for some great reading!

https://www.probe.org/docs/homo-q&a.html

Here is a cut & paste from part of it.  And I am not out to "argue" with anybody, and I am not being "intolerant".  So don't get mad at ME, because these aren't MY words, but GOD'S!!
Q. Some people say homosexuality is natural and moral; others say it is unnatural and immoral. How do we know?


A. Our standard can only be what God says. In Romans 1 we read,



God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion (Rom 1:26-27).
So even though homosexual desires feel natural, they are actually unnatural, because God says they are. He also calls all sexual involvement outside of marriage immoral. (There are 44 references to fornication--sexual immorality--in the Bible.) Therefore, any form of homosexual activity, a one-night stand or a long-term monogamous relationship, is by definition immoral--just as any abuse of heterosexuality outside of marriage is immoral.



Q. Is homosexuality an orientation God intended for some people, or is it a perversion of normal sexuality?


A. If God had intended homosexuality to be a viable sexual alternative for some people, He would not have condemned it as an abomination. It is never mentioned in Scripture in anything but negative terms, and nowhere does the Bible even hint at approving or giving instruction for homosexual relationships. Some theologians have argued that David and Jonathan's relationship was a homosexual one, but this claim has no basis in Scripture. David and Jonathan's deep friendship was not sexual; it was one of godly emotional intimacy that truly glorified the Lord.


Homosexuality is a manifestation of the sin nature that all people share. At the fall of man (Gen 3), God's perfect creation was spoiled, and the taint of sin affected us physically, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually--and sexually. Homosexuality is a perversion of heterosexuality, which is God's plan for His creation. The Lord Jesus said,




In the beginning the Creator made them male and female. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh (Matt 19:4, 5).
Homosexual activity and pre-marital or extra-marital heterosexual activity are all sinful attempts to find sexual and emotional expression in ways God never intended.



 

[aquariuswb]

Check out this page for some great reading!

https://www.probe.org/docs/homo-q&a.html

Here is a cut & paste from part of it.  And I am not out to "argue" with anybody, and I am not being "intolerant".  So don't get mad at ME, because these aren't MY words, but GOD'S!!
Q. Some people say homosexuality is natural and moral; others say it is unnatural and immoral. How do we know?


A. Our standard can only be what God says. In Romans 1 we read,



God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion (Rom 1:26-27).
So even though homosexual desires feel natural, they are actually unnatural, because God says they are. He also calls all sexual involvement outside of marriage immoral. (There are 44 references to fornication--sexual immorality--in the Bible.) Therefore, any form of homosexual activity, a one-night stand or a long-term monogamous relationship, is by definition immoral--just as any abuse of heterosexuality outside of marriage is immoral.



Q. Is homosexuality an orientation God intended for some people, or is it a perversion of normal sexuality?


A. If God had intended homosexuality to be a viable sexual alternative for some people, He would not have condemned it as an abomination. It is never mentioned in Scripture in anything but negative terms, and nowhere does the Bible even hint at approving or giving instruction for homosexual relationships. Some theologians have argued that David and Jonathan's relationship was a homosexual one, but this claim has no basis in Scripture. David and Jonathan's deep friendship was not sexual; it was one of godly emotional intimacy that truly glorified the Lord.


Homosexuality is a manifestation of the sin nature that all people share. At the fall of man (Gen 3), God's perfect creation was spoiled, and the taint of sin affected us physically, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually--and sexually. Homosexuality is a perversion of heterosexuality, which is God's plan for His creation. The Lord Jesus said,




In the beginning the Creator made them male and female. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh (Matt 19:4, 5).
Homosexual activity and pre-marital or extra-marital heterosexual activity are all sinful attempts to find sexual and emotional expression in ways God never intended.



 

moron

[janice]

Really? Did you hear God say that? Oh wait, no, you read it in a book... eh?

Are you saying that you doubt God's love for each and every one of us?  If this is not what you mean, could you please clarify?

[pianobabe56]

First off, kudos to Janice for standing up for something. I appreciate seeing someone with strong moral standards- what i consider to be the saving grace of a society that is going to the dogs.

Second, before you all flame us Christians, if you can't prove to me with a hundred percent accuracy that the bible is all fictional, then I will continue to believe until the day that I die that it is a book written by good men inspired of God.

And finally, I believe that homosexuality is a choice. I believe that there were some people who were born with those tendencies, but they CAN be overcome with the proper support and honest effort. It is a terrible, offensive sin, and there should be no tolerance for it- there should be understanding and support for those honestly trying to change, but no tolerance for acceptance of homosexuality.

(If you all hadn't noticed yet, I'm 100% Republican  )

[xvimbi]

Second, before you all flame us Christians, if you can't prove to me with a hundred percent accuracy that the bible is all fictional, then I will continue to believe until the day that I die that it is a book written by good men inspired of God.

For all those who like to cite the Bible as the ultimate guide for how societies must behave, and for those who pick only those bits of the Bible that suite their cause, I'd like to post the following:

Dear President Bush,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said, "In the eyes of God, marriage is based between a man and a woman. " I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think a fair price would be for her?

3. I know that I am not allowed to contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15:19-24) The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a less abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination.

7. Lev. 21:20 sates that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Could we just burn them death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Sincerely,
Joe Public

[lenny]

seriously - if i believed in god - and those were 'his' rules, and 'he' said gay people were 'wrong' .....

yes....lets say 'god' created us all- he created homosexuals too...now isnt this a conundrum?

amusing conversation with god :

gay person praying to god: i cant help it, but ive always felt an attraction towards people of my own sex

god: hmmmm, you a homo?

gay: i guess you could call me that

god: oh , well you are wrong, you are a sinner, you will go to hell, sorry thats just the way it is

gay: why is it this way?

god: look, i make the rules around here : gays=sinners

gay:wait a second, didnt you create the heaven and the earth, and MANKIND in your own image?

god: well yes

gay: and i guess youre the one that made me gay, right?

god: ehhh i felt like it, seemed fun at the time

gay:WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO PLAY GOD LIKE THAT?!?!

god:ummmmm, i am god - i can do whatever i like

gay: right.....so you made me...and im gay..and im wrong for being gay?

god: yes

gay:riiiiiiiiiiight, so arent you being a little hypocritical?

god: well ,maybe, but i dont give a damn, youre the one going to hell! HAHA!

gay:oh crap.....

-------------------------------

YES this is the way i see it - if 'god' exists, and 'god' did all this..

my conclusion is - 'god' is a hypocritical, stupid, bigheaded JERK

[aquariuswb]

And finally, I believe that homosexuality is a choice. I believe that there were some people who were born with those tendencies, but they CAN be overcome with the proper support and honest effort. It is a terrible, offensive sin, and there should be no tolerance for it- there should be understanding and support for those honestly trying to change, but no tolerance for acceptance of homosexuality.

(If you all hadn't noticed yet, I'm 100% Republican  )

You are a terrible, offensive sin.

[lenny]

oh well...at least god has a sense of humour -

the most powerful venom in the animal kingdom...what animal posesses this venom?

a DADDY LONG-LEGS!!!!!!!

yes thats right, the animal that lives ONE DAY, and has NO MOUTH TO USE IT WITH!

god is a FUNNY FUNNY GUY!

[lenny]

lol, i just noticed - look at the ads at the top of this thread!

 

[aquariuswb]

oh well...at least god has a sense of humour -

the most powerful venom in the animal kingdom...what animal posesses this venom?

a DADDY LONG-LEGS!!!!!!!

yes thats right, the animal that lives ONE DAY, and has NO MOUTH TO USE IT WITH!

god is a FUNNY FUNNY GUY!

Well actually... https://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/longlegs.htm

[lenny]

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312192398/qid=1108086614/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8379188-9672968?v=glance&s=books

well...this book proves that animals are gay too

[lenny]

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/3L79TAATWZFXR/ref=cm_bg_dp_m_3/102-8379188-9672968

interesting stuff!

[pianobabe56]

God did not "create" gay people. He created people. Yes, some people are born with those tendencies, but tests have also shown that people who were "born gay" have to be perfectly straight people. Everyone who has those tendencies have the ability to overcome them. God would never give someone a temptation or challenge that they couldn't handle, and then condemn them for it.

Secondly, the bible is not "The Perfect Life for Dummies." It's a guidebook that explains God's laws and commandments. All those references to Exodus and Leviticus were from the Old Testament, when the Israelites still lived the Law of Moses, which no longer applies to today.

So now I'm officially done bible-bashing. Moral: I don't approve of homosexuality on the grounds of my religious beliefs.

[lenny]

if you believe a 'god' created everything, that must include gay people

dont you think 'god' is a bit of an a-hole for making somebody gay, then condemning them to suffer?

homosexuals have suffered long enough, can you imagine what its like to supress your true feelings? to lead a false life?

why did 'god' choose to do that little tsunami?

'god' is such a moron

[puma]

   It's weird, what with all the hoopla surrounding gays and the general acceptance of them in the entertainment industry (example: queer eye for the straight guy) I'd figure that the bible people had given up - apparently not, however (see some posts above and "The Shield" for a look at how the church looks at gays). There's plenty of backlash against gays and gay rights, especially marriage - more so in the bible belt, where even the hanging of a gay (Matthew Shephard) was condoned by the local community, but not by the federal government.  The resigning of NJ governor (McGreever) over the fact that he had a gay relationship.  Gay marriage being illegal in some states, with little or no federal support.  Gay rights has a long way to go.  But before you bash gay people, remember this: it is one thing to crack jokes in your living room, another to take out your aggressions on a certain type of people.  Who says that the same type of behavior that is deemed acceptable towards gays (when it actually barbaric) won't be used as an excuse towards another group: Black, Jew, Muslim, Irish, Italian, Catholic.  Where do you draw the line?  A White Protestant may one day have to live in fear because of earlier actions he condoned.  That's my take on the whole issue.

[lenny]

'where even the hanging of a gay (Matthew Shephard) was condoned by the local community, but not by the federal government'

can you tell me more about this? someone was hanged for being gay?!?!?!

[Brian Healey]

If the Bible says homosexuality is so wrong, how come so-called "men of God" like to touch young boys in naughty ways?

Oh.....I see. Homosexuality is cool as long as you're a pedophile as well.


Got it.


Peace,
Bri

[Troldhaugen]

I don't understand why we even need to make reference to God when discussing about homosexuality. 

[puma]

   Lenny: not exactly hanged, you'll have to excuse me for saying so, but in more detail here it is: In the state of wyoming, Matthew was at a gay bar. Two men came in and left with him.  He was driven to an open field, tied to a fence, beaten up AND robbed, then left for dead in freezing temperatures.  Detectives smelled hate crime, and the Matthew Shepherd case remains to this day one of the big hate crimes cases.  A lot of pro-gay groups rallied to the cause, with a lot of anti-gay groups rallying otherwise - saying he more or less "deserved" it.

   Bri Healey: I was definitely not saying homosexuality is "cool" in any way, although nowadays there does seem to be a sort of cool attached to it.  I certainly don't support pedophilia, and if a career for music doesn't work out for me I'd like to work in law enforcement, and you can bet your bottom dollar that those sick f**k pedophiles will be right on my list next to murderers and rapists.  I had a friend who was attacked as a kid by his older brother,  and he rarely talked about it but I was shocked to hear it.  It definitely affected the choices he made in his life ... and I've read up on some cases ... really disgusting stuff.  PLEASE do not lump homosexuality and pedophilia into the same boat as these bastards. 

On the whole Catholic Church thing - aside from the jokes we hear all the time, it is a downright shame that the Catholic Church has degraded itself the way it has.  My own brother, deeply religious, stopped going to Church when he heard about all these attacks, and I'd like to see this mess cleaned up. I haven't kept up on it recently, but last I heard they should be doing SOMETHING to clean it up.  I know SNAP (survivor network of abusive priests) was clamoring to get something done about compensation and weeding out potential offenders.  I hope the Church does revise its VERY oldschool, and debilitating, policy.

[janice]

dont you think 'god' is a bit of an a-hole for making somebody gay, then condemning them to suffer?

God originally created male and female, and they are to belong TOGETHER.  However, sin entered the world.  And because sin entered the world, we are faced with all kinds of temptations.  Some people have a tendency to overeat, or to drink too much.  Some people have a very powerful temptation to shoplift, and others have a "bend" towards pornography, etc etc.  An obese person can't just say "God made me fat", or "God made me an alcoholic".  Because eating and drinking are not sinful, in and of themselves.  It is the ABUSE of it that is a sin.  Same way with sex.  God created sex, and He says it is good!  However, God established guidelines for sex.  He says that it is something that should be reserved for marriage, and that is should only be between one man and one woman.  He set these guidelines for our benefit.  If we lived in a world where extramarital or premarital sex was unheard of, there would be few or no sexually transmitted diseases.  But AIDS can be contracted "innocently"--a blood transfusion, for instance.  God isn't punishing those particular people who contracted it "innocently", rather it is a disease which exists because the ENTIRE human race is fallen.

God doesn't "send" someone to hell.  Rather, the choice is up to us.  God longs for each one of us to spend eternity WITH Him, rather than APART from him.  The Bible says that God "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".  I could elaborate on this for a long time, but I won't for now.  If anybody wants to know more, just private message me.

[lenny]

   Lenny: not exactly hanged, you'll have to excuse me for saying so, but in more detail here it is: In the state of wyoming, Matthew was at a gay bar. Two men came in and left with him.  He was driven to an open field, tied to a fence, beaten up AND robbed, then left for dead in freezing temperatures.  Detectives smelled hate crime, and the Matthew Shepherd case remains to this day one of the big hate crimes cases.  A lot of pro-gay groups rallied to the cause, with a lot of anti-gay groups rallying otherwise - saying he more or less "deserved" it.

thats absolutely disgusting

[lenny]

God originally created male and female, and they are to belong TOGETHER.  However, sin entered the world.  And because sin entered the world, we are faced with all kinds of temptations.  Some people have a tendency to overeat, or to drink too much.  Some people have a very powerful temptation to shoplift, and others have a "bend" towards pornography, etc etc.  An obese person can't just say "God made me fat", or "God made me an alcoholic".  Because eating and drinking are not sinful, in and of themselves.  It is the ABUSE of it that is a sin.  Same way with sex.  God created sex, and He says it is good!  However, God established guidelines for sex.  He says that it is something that should be reserved for marriage, and that is should only be between one man and one woman.  He set these guidelines for our benefit.  If we lived in a world where extramarital or premarital sex was unheard of, there would be few or no sexually transmitted diseases.  But AIDS can be contracted "innocently"--a blood transfusion, for instance.  God isn't punishing those particular people who contracted it "innocently", rather it is a disease which exists because the ENTIRE human race is fallen.

God doesn't "send" someone to hell.  Rather, the choice is up to us.  God longs for each one of us to spend eternity WITH Him, rather than APART from him.  The Bible says that God "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".  I could elaborate on this for a long time, but I won't for now.  If anybody wants to know more, just private message me.

let me get this straigh - god created everything....

ok

so where the hell did sin come from?

[lenny]

and my opinion about christians:

i think its fine to have beliefs, but it isnt fine when those beliefs infringe and effect others in a bad way

janice, do you have any homosexual friends?

[klavierkonzerte]

that's a very intresting dicussion

there's no such thing as ((i was born gay)) we are all born straight  BUT the way we are raised and some events turns some of us homosexual.

i 100% support every word janice said

homosexualty is wrong because it's not natural
belive me every homosexual knows that homosxeuality is wrong but they try to convince thereselves that nothing is wrong with it

and like pianobabe said homosexual can overcome this with time and if they try hard and if they really wanted to.

[calidris]

I don't understand why we even need to make reference to God when discussing about homosexuality. 

Amen! ... erhh ... I mean... I agree!

[xvimbi]

By now, I just wish that whole "Anything but piano" section would disappear, and we would just stick to piano and music.

On the other hand, reading this and similar threads in the morning has helped reduce my coffee intake, as coffee helps boost my blood pressure, and so does this thread.

[janice]

so where the hell did sin come from?

God didn't really "create" sin, what He did was to create humans with a "free will".  That means that we actually make the CHOICE to sin. 

[janice]

and my opinion about christians:

i think its fine to have beliefs, but it isnt fine when those beliefs infringe and effect others in a bad way

True.

janice, do you have any homosexual friends? 

Yes, I have many friends, and some ARE homosexual or bi-sexual.

[chopiabin]

People keep saying that "homosexuality is wrong because the bible says it is wrong."
I don't believe in the bible as any sort of authority on anything.
I believe in modern philosophers such as Huxley, Gould, Nietzsche, Freud, etc. who had much more insght into human psychology than did any of the writers of the bible. What is to say that their writings are any less valuable than the bible?
I suppose the response will be "the bible is absolute truth, etc." (which doesnt make sense), but what about other religions that developed independently of Christianity? What makes Christianity any more valuable? If you walk up to a Hindu and say "You are leading a sinful life because this book and my god say you do," what do you think he will do? Fall on his knees and repent because your beliefs say he is wrong?

I don't understand people that can not see that conventional morality is something that evolved as an evolutionarily advantagous device, and that religion was created to help enforce those moral conventions - "If you do not act in accordance with accepted moral coventions, you will go to hell."

 Do you not see that every human is th product of evolution?!?!?! I think that everyone will agree that humans have both selfish and compassionate urges within us. We evolved from organisms that had to compete against each other for survival (hence human selfishness), but it became evolutionarily advantageous to live in a society and cooperate (hence human compassion). Christianity became so popular by catring to both aspects of the human mind - It caters to selfishness by promising eternal life in return for being compassionate and following the cooperative morality, without which society could not exist.

Read William Blake, T.H. Huxley, Friedrich Nietzsche.

Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell:
"The ancient poets animated all sensible objects with Gods or Geniuses, calling them by the names and adorning them with the properties of woods, rivers, mountains, lakes, cities, nations, and whatever their enlarged and numerous senses could perceive. And particularly they studied the genius of ach city and country, placing it under its mental deity, till a system was formed, which some took advantage of and enslaved the vulgar by attempting to realize or abstract the mental deities from their objects; thus began Priesthood, choosing forms of worship from poetic tales. And at legth they pronounced that the Gods had ordered such things. Thus men forgot that All deities reside in the human breast."

[aquariuswb]

People keep saying that "homosexuality is wrong because the bible says it is wrong."
I don't believe in the bible as any sort of authority on anything.
I believe in modern philosophers such as Huxley, Gould, Nietzsche, Freud, etc. who had much more insght into human psychology than did any of the writers of the bible. What is to say that their writings are any less valuable than the bible?
I suppose the response will be "the bible is absolute truth, etc." (which doesnt make sense), but what about other religions that developed independently of Christianity? What makes Christianity any more valuable? If you walk up to a Hindu and say "You are leading a sinful life because this book and my god say you do," what do you think he will do? Fall on his knees and repent because your beliefs say he is wrong?

I don't understand people that can not see that conventional morality is something that evolved as an evolutionarily advantagous device, and that religion was created to help enforce those moral conventions - "If you do not act in accordance with accepted moral coventions, you will go to hell."

 Do you not see that every human is th product of evolution?!?!?! I think that everyone will agree that humans have both selfish and compassionate urges within us. We evolved from organisms that had to compete against each other for survival (hence human selfishness), but it became evolutionarily advantageous to live in a society and cooperate (hence human compassion). Christianity became so popular by catring to both aspects of the human mind - It caters to selfishness by promising eternal life in return for being compassionate and following the cooperative morality, without which society could not exist.

Read William Blake, T.H. Huxley, Friedrich Nietzsche.

Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell:
"The ancient poets animated all sensible objects with Gods or Geniuses, calling them by the names and adorning them with the properties of woods, rivers, mountains, lakes, cities, nations, and whatever their enlarged and numerous senses could perceive. And particularly they studied the genius of ach city and country, placing it under its mental deity, till a system was formed, which some took advantage of and enslaved the vulgar by attempting to realize or abstract the mental deities from their objects; thus began Priesthood, choosing forms of worship from poetic tales. And at legth they pronounced that the Gods had ordered such things. Thus men forgot that All deities reside in the human breast."

Your thoughts on morality and religion mirror mine precisely. I've always had the same theory. The better a group of people can work as a team and not fight, the stronger they will be against enemies. Hence, rules were laid out to make the group stronger -- and tales of Gods, heaven, and hell were used to drill the rules into the minds of the young: If you don't act this way, you will go to hell (just as you said, Chopiabin). Morals came before religion. Morals, or codes of conduct, are necessary for a group of people to progress in any way. In order for group living to be beneficial, the group must be stronger than the individual, but the individual must also be more protected than he/she would be outside of the group -- these are things that moral codes take care of. Every religion has the same basic moral principles, but they only really apply to their own group. "Thou shalt not kill" really means "Thou shalt not kill THY NEIGHBOR," and the same is the case for just about every religious group. So all these groups have the same basic moral codes, but after stories are created to explain the morals and instill fear of breaking them (religion), the stories/religion become more important than the codes of morality themselves -- which means two groups of people with different tales/religions/Gods will fight over religion, when really both groups have the same basic moral laws, and their religions are simply differing explanations for what both groups have in common.

This is why I will never give my faith to a structured religion. I may have my own personal beliefs, but I will never allow my beliefs to override logic and reason, nor will I let them have more influence on my actions than the morals on which society is founded. I've heard people say that agnostics and atheists cannot be moral people because they have no religion -- it's simply not true, seeing as religion comes FROM morals, and not the other way around. If you can function in society without being ostracized, lynched, or whatever, then you, by definition, live by the societal codes of morality.

If morals are as I have defined them, then being "immoral' or "wrong" necessitates doing something that, a.) weakens the group's ability to progress and/or defeat enemies, or b.) weakens the protection offered to the individual by the group. Is homosexuality wrong? Does it weaken the group's ability to progress? By our standards of progress today (i.e. scientific/technological advancement, aiming for world peace, saving the environment, etc.), the answer is no. Does it weaken the group's ability to defeat enemies? Obviously not -- homosexuals are often stereotyped as being physically weak or cowardly, but I sincerely hope that nobody in this thread is fooled by such nonsense. Does homosexuality weaken the protection offered to the individual by the group? No, it does not: if person A in San Francisco is homosexual, person B in New York city feels no effect... in fact, person C who lives next door to person A is not stripped of any protection by the group on account of person A being homosexual. Homosexual individuals pose no threat to heterosexual individuals (with the exception of sex offenders, the incidence of which is no higher among homosexuals than it is among heterosexuals).

Then you have people who try to oppress homosexuals. Those of you who call homosexuality "wrong" ARE threatening the protection offered to the individual by the group -- you are threatening the protection of the homosexuals, who pose no threat to you. They are still members of society, and are entitled to all the rights and respect in this society that you are. If they posed a threat to any of the issues I mentioned in the above paragraph, then, perhaps fighting against homosexuality would be acceptable. The fact is, though, homosexuality does NOT pose these threats -- but YOU do by stripping them of the protection by the group that they are entitled to. There's not really a point in arguing with you Bible Beaters, though. You people who think any point you want to argue can be proved by quoting a Biblical passage -- I have news for you, the opposite point can usually also be proved by quoting another Biblical passage. It's just a book. To take it as absolute truth goes beyond the realm of just "having faith;" it enters the realm of idiocy, through which true bigotry and immorality, as I have outlined above, become quite likely. I'm not saying that all people of faith are like this. However, I am saying that being so blindly zealous about ANY religion, for many (not all) people, does lead to closed-mindedness, bigotry, and immorality by the true societal definition -- far more so than does homosexuality.

[Troldhaugen]

I think many people tend to relate the emergence and the justification of homosexulaity to God. I have no intention of talking about whether or not God exists, which will open a can of worms for sure......The point is just follow your own reason!

[lenny]

God didn't really "create" sin, what He did was to create humans with a "free will".  That means that we actually make the CHOICE to sin. 

you would think that he would maybe 'programme' us without bad qualities

or is he twisted and evil? he chooses to balance good, with bad

[janice]

you would think that he would maybe 'programme' us without bad qualities

or is he twisted and evil? he chooses to balance good, with bad

Yes, that would be good not to be "programmed", but I don't know as though we are actually "programmed".  God allowed and still allows us to have free will. We are all born with a tendency to sin.  When I said that we have a "bend" towards sin, that is different than being "programmed".  To be programmed infers that you have lost all control.
       God is 100% good.  He loves you and wants you to spend eternity with Him.  But however man rebelled against God, and now this Earth is no longer paradise.  Satan is a real being, and his agenda is to cause you to doubt God's love and goodness, and to tempt you to disobey.  But he doesn't actually MAKE you disobey.  The old phrase "the devil made me do it" just doesn't cut it. Satan can make sin look appealing, and sometimes makes it so appealing that we are bound to think "hey, this looks great. boy, God must be stuffy if He wants to keep me away from this!" 

[lenny]

so god is 100% good

and god created humans, who are often bad

where did all this sin stuff come from?

and why did he randomly decide to kill thousands in the tsunami?