Recommend me some Schubert!

[werq34ac]

Okay, so I never really got around to fully appreciating this composer. A lot of the works seemed overly... long. Well, unnecessarily so. A lot of it is just repeating something that's already just been repeated 5x already. Though there are SOME works that I really liked by him. So, it's probably good for me if I got to know some more Schubert.

Pieces that I abhor:
Op. 90 Impromptus, waltzes

Pieces that I like a lot
Sonata in A minor D845
Wanderer Fantasy
Arpeggione Sonata.

[alessandro]

Don't feel sorry 'wercq34ac, but this hurts a little the way you talk about Schubert, he has a particular place in my heart.   I think "Winterreise" is one of the most beautiful music that is ever made.   Maybe you are young and I am old and dull, but length and repetition is a part of a lot of classical, romantic music, and a joy.   This 'repetitions' that you are talking about (and the underlying fact that you find it probably boring) could be seen in another context.   I even think that part of this discomfort with repetition is that the actual, contemporary notion of time is nowadays different than it was let's say 200 years ago in the way people "listened" to music.  There must be a different perception of intensity.   I can enjoy repetition ; repetition is very often not repetition (but I don't know how to explain this now).  
Unfortunately, in the meantime, I frankly don't know what to recommend you if you don't like the Impromptu's neither the waltzes.   Except, maybe Impromptu 3

Alright, he may be not the most spectacular composer for solo piano, but what a universe he created, what an atmosphere.   And frankly, I think I could enjoy only the piano-parts in a lot of his Lieder.

Just a small attempt hoping you change, even just a little, your appreciation of this composer.   Have you ever listened carefully to "Der Leiermann" ?  If not, please sit down, close your eyes, close the curtains and listen to for example, this version...

Kind regards.


  

[j_menz]

Okay, so I never really got around to fully appreciating this composer. A lot of the works seemed overly... long. Well, unnecessarily so. A lot of it is just repeating something that's already just been repeated 5x already.

I love Schubert!  One of my piano teachers once said "he does go on a bit, doesn't he", though. (I refrained from hitting her, or throwing up on the keyboard or anything).

From what you do like of Schubert, I'd strongly recommend the later sonatas (and some of the earlier ones). Uschida or Kempf, if you can get them.

[beebert]

Don't feel sorry 'wercq34ac, but this hurts a little the way you talk about Schubert, he has a particular place in my heart.   I think "Winterreise" is one of the most beautiful music that is ever made.   Maybe you are young and I am old and dull, but length and repetition is a part of a lot of classical, romantic music, and a joy.   This 'repetitions' that you are talking about (and the underlying fact that you find it probably boring) could be seen in another context.   I even think that part of this discomfort with repetition is that the actual, contemporary notion of time is nowadays different than it was let's say 200 years ago in the way people "listened" to music.  There must be a different perception of intensity.   I can enjoy repetition ; repetition is very often not repetition (but I don't know how to explain this now).  
Unfortunately, in the meantime, I frankly don't know what to recommend you if you don't like the Impromptu's neither the waltzes.   Except, maybe Impromptu 3

Alright, he may be not the most spectacular composer for solo piano, but what a universe he created, what an atmosphere.   And frankly, I think I could enjoy only the piano-parts in a lot of his Lieder.

Just a small attempt hoping you change, even just a little, your appreciation of this composer.   Have you ever listened carefully to "Der Leiermann" ?  If not, please sit down, close your eyes, close the curtains and listen to for example, this version...

Kind regards.


  

Why may Schubert not be the most spectacular composer for solo piano? Personally I think he was one of the greatest composers for solo piano. Impromptus, the last three sonatas, wanderer fantasy.. I doubt even Chopin can compete with those works.

[thalbergmad]

Schubert for me was the most melodic of all the composers for the piano, so in general I do not mind the repeats. However, I do reserve the right not to play them should my mood dictate.

He had the ability to create something that was so beautiful and yet so simple at the same time, which is my measure of a great composer.

If there is anything more beautiful and simple than the beginning of the Sonata D894, I will eat my banjo.

Thal

[stoudemirestat]

Why may Schubert not be the most spectacular composer for solo piano? Personally I think he was one of the greatest composers for solo piano. Impromptus, the last three sonatas, wanderer fantasy.. I doubt even Chopin can compete with those works.

While I agree he is one of the greatest for solo piano, I disagree that Chopin can't compete with those works.

[werq34ac]

Don't feel sorry 'wercq34ac, but this hurts a little the way you talk about Schubert, he has a particular place in my heart

Ah, I only meant to say that Schubert repeats his themes a lot (like A LOT).

As for the impromptus, I'm not particularly fond of light pieces like that.. To be fair, I'm not really fond of Chopin's waltzes, impromptus, and mazurkas either.

I doubt even Chopin can compete with those works.

BLASPHEMY! just kidding, you're entitled to your opinion. No one can compete with Chopin in my opinion.

I guess I'll share a little something. At a masterclass, someone was playing a Schubert Impromptu (at the end of which, I never wanted to hear that theme again DX). The teacher described Schubert as you are walking along a path, and you see a tree. Now at that moment, you see the tree from that particular angle. But some time later, you come back to the tree except from a different angle. And perhaps you see something a little different that you didn't see before. Now the misconception is that students sometimes magically turn the tree ....into a house! When no, it's still a tree.

So I am aware that repetition is not repetition. Though I guess I find the lack of development of the theme a bit disappointing.

I liked the Sonata posted by Thal, thank you very much. Simple and beautiful. Nothing particularly life-changing, but most certainly worth listening to (several times  )

[beebert]

That is the greatest piece ever written for piano, period.

Great.

Greatest piece ever written.

Greatest piano piece for four hands.

[beebert]

Here you have some of his lieder, enjoy:

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[stoudemirestat]

^Yes, they are great pieces. But that is all your opinion. You can't  objectively say that something is the greatest piece, period.

Where you say the D.960 is the greatest piano piece ever, I say the Liszt Sonata (although the Schubert is up there). Where you say the String Quintet is the best piece ever, I say there are many pieces on the same level or better. But that's all my opinion. You can't objectively say something is the greatest piece ever. You can say it's your favourite or you consider it to be the best...but that's as far as you can go.

[j_menz]

But that's all my opinion. You can't objectively say something is the greatest piece ever. You can say it's your favourite or you consider it to be the best...but that's as far as you can go.

Some people believe that their subjective opinions have objective force.

Obviously that's silly. Unless they agree with me.

[keyboardkat]

The thing with appreciating Schubert's instrumental music, and particularly the piano music is, you must imagine that there are words that are missing.   Remember he wrote all those songs.  His music is very vocal and lyrical.

Another trademark that appears and reappears is the dactylic rhythm:  Long, short-short long, short-short.   You'll find this in the A major piano sonata op. 120 (first movement, second theme), in Rosamunde, in the B-flat theme and variations for piano, and of course the Wanderer Fantasy, all four movements of it, is based on it (a segment lifted from his song, "Der Wanderer."

[squarevince]

If there is anything more beautiful and simple than the beginning of the Sonata D894, I will eat my banjo.

Thal

Please do eat your banjo.  The turn at 2:40 in the d784 Sonata is *far* more beautiful (especially with Brendel playing):

  

[bachbrahmsschubert]

It's not that he repeats a lot, he's generally following the form in which he is writing. His rondos can be really long and feel drawn out because he writes a lot of material for the general ABACADA (notice the main theme repeats at least 4 times) format he chooses. MANY composers use this rondo setup.

Schubert was an absolute genius, and in my opinion he was writing better music than Beethoven was in the 1820s, minus the 9th symphony. He was employing things that no other composer at the time was doing, and no other composer after did for quite awhile.

If you feel the lieder are drawn out, many composers use what is called strophic form. Schumann abused it, as did Bob Dylan. It's meant to be repetitious.

For me, Schubert is the best composer between 1800-1850 and one of the most difficult composers to learn and perform on any instrument.

[stoudemirestat]

It's not that he repeats a lot, he's generally following the form in which he is writing.

And that form makes him repeat a lot. No matter which way you slice it, he does do it.

[alessandro]

I’m wondering, and I don’t want to hi-jack this topic to turn it in something totally different, when I boldly state that Schubert is for me not the “Top”-piano composer (above him there is among others Chopin and Beethoven) for the following reasons.   And please note that I’m far from being a good technical pianist.    Some of Schubert Impromptus or Hungarian Dances do feel awkward under my fingers.   They are technically, for the structure of my hand, too demanding.   And I think, but I’m curious to know your point of view, that is not due to the fact that I don’t practice enough to be able to play it, but that there is some difficulty, some artificialness (in opposition to the naturalness of the structure, the motor skills of the hand, almost unrealistic) in the way he composes for piano.   Chopin is was for me a revelation how he was well aware of the way a hand and a finger could move along the keyboard.   What do you think of this – I don’t find another word to describe it – awkwardness in Schuberts piano writings concerning the technical aspect.
I’m quite sure he was well aware of the moods and atmospheres that he wanted to create.   He is fantastic for expressing a profound intimate, intimistic life.   He has absolutely wonderful melodies, he is unique, I like him a lot.   But this is just a little “minor” remark that is only valid for his piano music.

[beebert]

I’m wondering, and I don’t want to hi-jack this topic to turn it in something totally different, when I boldly state that Schubert is for me not the “Top”-piano composer (above him there is among others Chopin and Beethoven) for the following reasons.   And please note that I’m far from being a good technical pianist.    Some of Schubert Impromptus or Hungarian Dances do feel awkward under my fingers.   They are technically, for the structure of my hand, too demanding.   And I think, but I’m curious to know your point of view, that is not due to the fact that I don’t practice enough to be able to play it, but that there is some difficulty, some artificialness (in opposition to the naturalness of the structure, the motor skills of the hand, almost unrealistic) in the way he composes for piano.   Chopin is was for me a revelation how he was well aware of the way a hand and a finger could move along the keyboard.   What do you think of this – I don’t find another word to describe it – awkwardness in Schuberts piano writings concerning the technical aspect.
I’m quite sure he was well aware of the moods and atmospheres that he wanted to create.   He is fantastic for expressing a profound intimate, intimistic life.   He has absolutely wonderful melodies, he is unique, I like him a lot.   But this is just a little “minor” remark that is only valid for his piano music.

You are absolutely right. Schubert's piano music is definitely not as pianistic as Chopin's. but that is not strange, as Schubert wasn't a virtuoso pianist and he wasn't an expert at the instrument the same way Chopin was. If we are talking about pure pianistic compositions and the skill to use the piano as an instrument to its full potential, then there are a couple of composers that are ahead of Schubert. In this aspect, no one can compete with Chopin in my opinion, what I meant when I pointed out that not even Chopin can compete with some of Schubert's piano music, I meant from a musical point of view, not in how they use the instrument as a tool for their compositions. Chopin is THE master composer for the piano, just as Schubert is THE master composer of lieder. Personally though, I prefer Schubert's lieder over most of Chopin's music, and I prefer his Chamber music over Chopin's music, I prefer some of his piano music over most of Chopin's music... And Chopin practically only wrote for the piano. In other words, I definitely prefer Schubert over Chopin as a composer, but as a piano composer, I probably prefer Chopin..

[symphonicdance]

I think Schubert's Sonata in A major, D664 worths mentioning.  It has one of the sweetest melodies ever written in my opinion.  Technically it is not as demanding as his last 3 piano sonatas.

[stoudemirestat]

You are absolutely right. Schubert's piano music is definitely not as pianistic as Chopin's. but that is not strange, as Schubert wasn't a virtuoso pianist and he wasn't an expert at the instrument the same way Chopin was. If we are talking about pure pianistic compositions and the skill to use the piano as an instrument to its full potential, then there are a couple of composers that are ahead of Schubert. In this aspect, no one can compete with Chopin in my opinion, what I meant when I pointed out that not even Chopin can compete with some of Schubert's piano music, I meant from a musical point of view, not in how they use the instrument as a tool for their compositions. Chopin is THE master composer for the piano, just as Schubert is THE master composer of lieder. Personally though, I prefer Schubert's lieder over most of Chopin's music, and I prefer his Chamber music over Chopin's music, I prefer some of his piano music over most of Chopin's music... And Chopin practically only wrote for the piano. In other words, I definitely prefer Schubert over Chopin as a composer, but as a piano composer, I probably prefer Chopin..

Good post.

I wouldn't say Chopin is THE master composer for the piano though. The poet of the piano, certainly - I think in his own way Liszt was just as good a writer for the instrument, and is far more pianistic too. That being said I disagree still that musically the best of Schubert's piano music beats the best of Chopin's. It's great, sure, but so is the 4th Ballade, 2nd and 3rd piano sonatas, assorted preludes and etudes, nocturne 48/1, etc.

[squarevince]

I’m wondering, and I don’t want to hi-jack this topic to turn it in something totally different, when I boldly state that Schubert is for me not the “Top”-piano composer (above him there is among others Chopin and Beethoven) for the following reasons.   And please note that I’m far from being a good technical pianist.    Some of Schubert Impromptus or Hungarian Dances do feel awkward under my fingers.   They are technically, for the structure of my hand, too demanding.   And I think, but I’m curious to know your point of view, that is not due to the fact that I don’t practice enough to be able to play it, but that there is some difficulty, some artificialness (in opposition to the naturalness of the structure, the motor skills of the hand, almost unrealistic) in the way he composes for piano.   Chopin is was for me a revelation how he was well aware of the way a hand and a finger could move along the keyboard.   What do you think of this – I don’t find another word to describe it – awkwardness in Schuberts piano writings concerning the technical aspect.
I’m quite sure he was well aware of the moods and atmospheres that he wanted to create.   He is fantastic for expressing a profound intimate, intimistic life.   He has absolutely wonderful melodies, he is unique, I like him a lot.   But this is just a little “minor” remark that is only valid for his piano music.

I think it's hard to compare Chopin & Schubert.  Chopin and Liszt were pianists first, composers second.  Schubert, like Beethoven, was a composer first, and a pianist second.  To make a very cartoonish analogy, Chopin probably would do some magical fingerwork on the keyboard and say "ooh that sounds pretty" and flesh it out on paper.  Schubert worked his music starting with, "oh god, here's a pretty theme, how can i turn it into something new and inventive that Beethoven will be impressed by".

I think Schubert was preoccupied very much with making his vision something that was different and personal from the standard classical constructs that preceded him (both he and late Beethoven were trying to move past middle-period Beethoven).

I'm not a student of classical music history, so I could be off-base, but that's what it sounds like to me!

[bachbrahmsschubert]

And that form makes him repeat a lot. No matter which way you slice it, he does do it.

Maybe so, but to say "he repeats a lot" has a more negative connotation than Schubert deserves. Repeating a lot, to me, means a lack of ideas or structure; Schubert's compositions are the complete opposite.

You are absolutely right. Schubert's piano music is definitely not as pianistic as Chopin's. but that is not strange, as Schubert wasn't a virtuoso pianist and he wasn't an expert at the instrument the same way Chopin was. If we are talking about pure pianistic compositions and the skill to use the piano as an instrument to its full potential, then there are a couple of composers that are ahead of Schubert. In this aspect, no one can compete with Chopin in my opinion, what I meant when I pointed out that not even Chopin can compete with some of Schubert's piano music, I meant from a musical point of view, not in how they use the instrument as a tool for their compositions. Chopin is THE master composer for the piano, just as Schubert is THE master composer of lieder. Personally though, I prefer Schubert's lieder over most of Chopin's music, and I prefer his Chamber music over Chopin's music, I prefer some of his piano music over most of Chopin's music... And Chopin practically only wrote for the piano. In other words, I definitely prefer Schubert over Chopin as a composer, but as a piano composer, I probably prefer Chopin..

I agree with this. Schubert was more of a poet than pianist. Though his lieder are incredibly demanding for the pianist as well, more so than any other composer.

The topic is starting to go down the slippery slope of comparisons, so I'll just take a _quiet step back.