Any Joe can depress a key, the art is in what happens after

[keyboardclass]

A bit paraphrased but it's what a great pianist said to me during a lesson I was fortunate to have with him.  Methods tell you what to do - folks feel they've got value if they take away a set of instructions - stuff.  There's not much money in telling them to undo.

edit: Actually I'm not sure not doing is a 'happening'.

[cjp_piano]

A bit paraphrased but it's what a great pianist said to me during a lesson I was fortunate to have with him.  Methods tell you what to do - folks feel they've got value if they take away a set of instructions - stuff.  There's not much money in telling them to undo.

edit: Actually I'm not sure not doing is a 'happening'.

I don't get it, the art is in what happens after you depress a key? So it doesn't matter how you attack the note? I disagree

[keyboardclass]

There's not much involved in depressing a key whether slowly or quickly - it's pretty easily learned in one lesson (or less).

[nyiregyhazi]

A bit paraphrased but it's what a great pianist said to me during a lesson I was fortunate to have with him.  Methods tell you what to do - folks feel they've got value if they take away a set of instructions - stuff.  There's not much money in telling them to undo.

edit: Actually I'm not sure not doing is a 'happening'.

I wouldn't be this blunt with any other poster in this forum, but seeing as you are habitually so rude to so many and have so little open-mindedness, I'm not going to hold back. This attitude sums up almost everything that is wrong with your technique and explains why your playing is stuck in a rut of severe tension and poor dynamic control.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=keyboardclass+grieg&pq=keyboardclass+grie&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=&adlt=strict&mid=9E2321BF7F69424E74A19E2321BF7F69424E74A1&FORM=LKVR1#

Inactivity does not prepare the hand for playing the next note. It's no surprise that you think any old rubbish goes while playing a note, but you're wrong. The act of sounding the key produces what people hear. The point is that the posture of the hand AFTER the note affects the ability to sound the NEXT keys (unless you never play anything remotely quickly) - hence the major significance. If you only think in terms of what not to do, you rob of yourself of any hope in hell of being in an optimal position from which to play the next notes. By allowing your hand to slump you put it in a hopelessly difficult position from which it must seize up simply to avoid landing into a cluster of random notes. Until you understand how significant it is to keep the hand suitably yet comfortably prepared for the act of playing the following notes (rather than pretend that you can slump between notes when playing fast, the ability to play fast without completely locking yourself up will never be available to you.

Controlled spreed does not come from thinking that a crap quality of movement is fine if you relax after. It comes from using a good quality of movement to move the key and to remain well prepared for the next one (with no stopping to release seziures that should never have occurred). The art in what happens after is as much in what you DO need to do as what you don't. The fact that you are intent on only subtracting the ridiculously excessive efforts that you permit to arise again and again in yourself is what stops you getting any better.

PS. The reason there's not much money is telling people what not to do is that it doesn't work. Stripping things away comes from attention to what you DO need to do in order to achieve any stripping away. There's a reason why people who want to quit smoking don't just hire someone to tell them not to smoke and why people who want to lose weight don't pay someone to tell them not to be fat. Pointing out what is supposed to happen does not provide the means to do so and the simplistic assumption that it does is deeply naive.

[keyboardclass]

I wouldn't be this blunt with any other poster in this forum, but seeing as you are habitually so rude to so many and have so little open-mindedness, I'm not going to hold back.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=keyboardclass+grieg&pq=keyboardclass+grie&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=&adlt=strict&mid=9E2321BF7F69424E74A19E2321BF7F69424E74A1&FORM=LKVR1#

Do your worst, at least I'm not a sad pompous git.  With knuckles as stiff as yours you'd be better off boxing!

[akthe47]

Do your worst, at least I'm not a sad pompous git.  With knuckles as stiff as yours you'd be better off boxing!

But he's right.

Basic Psychology 101 says negative  reinforcement doesn't work for behavior change-- positive reinforcement does.

And hitting a key may sound easy, but not in sequence,  in a piece, and with musicality.  To think playing notes musically is easy is a very myopic view, indeed.

[pianoman53]

I start to have this idea that you two are the same person...
Both of you have, in one way or another, said that you are clever people, (At least clever enough to know everything there is to know about technique), yet, you keep having these completely pointless discussions that no smart guy would have. One is obviously mentally sick, while the other one is the biggest douche that was ever born.

So here is my question:
Why do you have a discussion with someone who, to you, is the most stupid and arrogant fool that you met?

[nyiregyhazi]

I start to have this idea that you two are the same person...
Both of you have, in one way or another, said that you are clever people, (At least clever enough to know everything there is to know about technique), yet, you keep having these completely pointless discussions that no smart guy would have. One is obviously mentally sick, while the other one is the biggest douche that was ever born.

So here is my question:
Why do you have a discussion with someone who, to you, is the most stupid and arrogant fool that you met?

Quite honestly, I've gained a lot from having to reframe things for the sake of someone who is not interested in understanding. It helps to clarify the thought processes and to clarify the simplest way to condense an explanation. Also, I lay no claims to knowing everything about technique and neither am I foolish enough to believe I have mastered it. Personally, I am perfectly willing to learn and to change my mind on things- both of which I continue to do. Just not in response to something so truly ludicrous as the idea that the moment that is specifically responsible for the sound that is produced doesn't matter and that neither does how you prepare yourself to perform the next.

What keyboardclass's goal is I do not know. Personally, I think about these things both for the sake of developing my own playing and for the sake of clarifying the content for my ongoing writings- in which I am striving to debunk the plausibility of such fantasies as the one that says relaxing after a stiff impact is any use (except for slightly limiting, rather than preventing, damage) . I've learned a huge amount from seeing the problems that manifest themselves in his videos.

[perfect_pitch]

Do your worst, at least I'm not a sad pompous git.  With knuckles as stiff as yours you'd be better off boxing!

The thing is he's right... At several times you arch your wrist and hold the hand on a downward angle... Especially the left hand. And you play like you have arthritis... Loosen up.

After seeing that video of you playing the Grieg... I'm wondering why anyone should take any technique or physical advice on playing the piano from you ever again.

Having said that... I look at these threads you start and are so convinced you write them simply to piss off other people and have an argument with them... Maybe that's all you've got in your life. Personally, I'd shut up and practice a little more than spending all your time arguing on here.

[akthe47]

I start to have this idea that you two are the same person...
Both of you have, in one way or another, said that you are clever people, (At least clever enough to know everything there is to know about technique), yet, you keep having these completely pointless discussions that no smart guy would have. One is obviously mentally sick, while the other one is the biggest douche that was ever born.

akin to saying that someone who points out you shouldn't use a lawnmower to hedge your bushes must be the top expert landscape artist in the world.

 

[zezhyrule]

Why do you have a discussion with someone who, to you, is the most stupid and arrogant fool that you met?

I can't speak for these two, but it happens all the time on other forums. Two certain users will always have long arguments in every thread, both with radically differing opinions. Sometimes they'll even argue a point they don't agree with just to counter the other user n_n

My guess is that it's fun or something 

[keyboardclass]

The thing is he's right... At several times you arch your wrist and hold the hand on a downward angle... Especially the left hand. And you play like you have arthritis... Loosen up.

After seeing that video of you playing the Grieg... I'm wondering why anyone should take any technique or physical advice on playing the piano from you ever again.

But then you would say that:

but more importantly your comments seem to re-affirm that the internet if full of morons.

I've stopped caring about what Keyboardclass has to say...

Doesn't seem to respect anyone here, so why should I listen to a damn thing he says... and personally I think he does it just to inflame other users here and to argue with them.

Where's the debate here?  Why not just simply ignore?

Folks, the quote in question is from a well known concert pianist (featured in Schonberg's book). Jeez, let's try and play the ball not the player!  and why dismiss a great pianist out of hand?

- in which I am striving to debunk the plausibility of such fantasies as the one that says relaxing after a stiff impact is any use (except for slightly limiting, rather than preventing, damage) . I've learned a huge amount from seeing the problems that manifest themselves in his videos.

You should show a bit more gratitude in that case!  but how intolerant to so cursorily dismiss 'relaxing after a stiff impact'.  

[nyiregyhazi]

Folks, the quote in question is from a well known concert pianist (featured in Schonberg's book). Jeez, let's try and play the ball not the player!  and why dismiss a great pianist out of hand?
You should show a bit more gratitude in that case!  but how intolerant to so cursorily dismiss 'relaxing after a stiff impact'.  

You have a known track record of misunderstanding things and then inaccurately paraphrasing them- so as to make them seem to incorporate your own beliefs. While the phrase is exaggerated, it closely resembles what I teach myself- except with recourse to CONSTANT comfort and balance, both during and after depression. Good pianists do not permit stiffness or impact to occur at all. They do not pretend that extreme relaxation (of the kind that leaves the hand in a disadvantaged position from which to strain through the next note) fixes the aftermath of an inept movement. They eliminate inept movements from their repertoire- a key part of which is to make sure that you begin each key descent from a predictable position (rather than wherever your hand collapsed to) . Given your track record, the pianist (why do you not name him or her?) may well have been trying to make you realise how important it is to prepare better. If so, I have little doubt that you'd have reversed the meaning to make it support the doctrines that fail you so.

PS I don't generally dismiss things casually. However, I make an exception for the bullshit pseudoscience which thinks that ill effects of impact can be cured after the event. Anything that defies the linear progression of time is bullshit. Impact is eliminated in good technique- not done over and over under the ludicrous idea that relaxing after makes it okay. It makes as much sense as claiming that you can crash your car without ill effects if you remember to hit the brakes after.

[keyboardclass]

You have a known track record of misunderstanding things and then inaccurately paraphrasing them- so as to make them seem to incorporate your own beliefs.

Since when?  You just made that up!  Call me a liar and go.  You have obviously nothing civil to add.  

[megadodd]

&feature=related

[keyboardclass]

So here is my question:
Why do you have a discussion with someone who, to you, is the most stupid and arrogant fool that you met?

I wouldn't call it a discussion - mostly name calling (can't say I appreciate being told my whole thread's a lie).

[nyiregyhazi]

I wouldn't call it a discussion - mostly name calling (can't say I appreciate being told my whole thread's a lie).

I didn't say it's a lie. However, given your track record of misunderstanding people and then paraphrasing them inaccurately, there's no reason to assume that you caught hold of the right end of the stick. Does doing nothing mean letting the knuckles collapse (and then being forced to tense up enough to stop a cluster from ensuing) or being well-poised for the next note? And did this pianist play with big sags after every depression? Why don't you name the pianist who supposedly thinks you can press the key any old way if you slump into relaxation after? Then we can see if their version of nothing involves collapse or good balance.

[keyboardclass]

However, given your track record of misunderstanding people and then paraphrasing them inaccurately,

Again, what a boldfaced lie!  - totally made up.

[nyiregyhazi]

Again, what a boldfaced lie!  - totally made up.

Yes, that's some hilarious trolling. Make an unfounded complaint about being accused of lying and then turn it around to accuse me of it instead. The irony of the hypocrisy is extremely clever, so congratulations for managing to cause it to arise.

If you're not going to name the pianist (for us to view in action) , clearly you have something to hide. Would how the pianist moves be too revealing of things that you do not wish to promote? This is of no further interest, if you're not prepared to move the topical issues forwards.

[keyboardclass]

Yeh, that's some hilarious lying you're doing there!  

I wouldn't give you the satisfaction, which you'd take, of speaking ill of the dead.  Schonberg says he's great - means nothing to you - but this lowly, humble piano teacher is happy to accept Schonberg's judgment.  

[nyiregyhazi]

Yeh, that's some hilarious lying you're doing there!  

I wouldn't give you the satisfaction, which you'd take, of speaking ill of the dead.  Schonberg says he's great - means nothing to you - but this lowly, humble piano teacher is happy to accept Schonberg's judgment.  

Yes, great trolling again. After having refused to acknowledge the existence of any of the holes in your technique and understanding, now you're lowly and humble. Again, congratulations on the hilarious irony (no doubt Andy Kaufman would have been proud) but can we get on with it now? I don't care how good or bad the pianist is. I want to know who it is to look at how they move and see whether it corresponds with what you are telling us they said. A few words mean little outside of the context of how a pianist plays. There's also the fact that, if you're not willing to name them, it raises the question as to whether they even exist.
  

[keyboardclass]

I don't care how good or bad the pianist is. I want to know who it is to look at how they move and see whether it corresponds with what you are telling us they said.

Look, I'm not your mum so you can stop ordering me about - and clean your room!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Do your worst, at least I'm not a sad pompous git.  With knuckles as stiff as yours you'd be better off boxing!

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Wow, I didn't know that you were such a troll that you would make a video just to insult N?

Grow up kid...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I wouldn't be this blunt with any other poster in this forum, but seeing as you are habitually so rude to so many and have so little open-mindedness, I'm not going to hold back. This attitude sums up almost everything that is wrong with your technique and explains why your playing is stuck in a rut of severe tension and poor dynamic control.

Don't feed the TROLL!!!

[keyboardclass]

Wow, I didn't know that you were such a troll that you would make a video just to insult N?

Yeh, retrospectively as well - 3 years before he even joined PS!  

You think it's OK to constantly post a member's videos just to make snide, untrue remarks about them?  That sounds more like trolling to me.  He's even done it in a forum I'm not a member of! - is that stalking or what? (and Jeez, does he ever talk drivel there)

[brogers70]

Instead of having this verbal grudge match, why don't you two guys agree on a piece and each post a video of yourselves playing it? Then the rest of us could see whose technique produces better results.

[keyboardclass]

Instead of having this verbal grudge match, why don't you two guys agree on a piece and each post a video of yourselves playing it? Then the rest of us could see whose technique produces better results.

Hey, thanks for the input but there are long term aspects like injury which a short vid isn't going to show.  The premise that relaxing as much as possible outside of key depression could possibly do harm is crazyness and will harm others.  Who needs a vid to understand that? 

[nyiregyhazi]

Hey, thanks for the input but there are long term aspects like injury which a short vid isn't going to show.  The premise that relaxing as much as possible outside of key depression could possibly do harm is crazyness and will harm others.  Who needs a vid to understand that?  

What harms people is relaxing into a poor position from which to play the key, before thinking that any old crap will do for the next, if they relax from it after. Balance is not to be relaxed from. It's something to be refined. You might as well argue that the knees should relax after each footsteps. There shouldn't be anything to relax from. If there is, allowing the knees to buckle is not useful. When stripping you have to perceive the useful action- otherwise you simply put location of the efforts (not to fall off the keys) outside of your control.

What is so deeply baffling is that you still fail to recognise such a transparently obvious premise- despite the atrocious unhealthy results in your Grieg video. You'd have been forced to quit years ago, if you had to play 6 hours per day.

[keyboardclass]

What harms people is relaxing into a poor position from which to play the key, before thinking that any old crap will do for the next, if they relax from it after.

You just made that up! A relaxed position of the arms/hands/fingers can never be a poor one.

[nyiregyhazi]

You just made that up! A relaxed position of the arms/hands/fingers can never be a poor one.

Considering that your hand would be by your side, it would be utterly useless. Generic intent to relax does not work when you need to keep the hand DEPRESSING THE NOTE and POISED TO PLAY. Release activities that aid balance and you either fall from the keys or work other muscles harder. It's the same simple reason why striving to relax as much as possible while sitting in a chair will overwork countless muscles.

[keyboardclass]

Considering that your hand would be by your side, it would be utterly useless.

Your hands are at your side when you play?  Jeez, no wonder you have such problems!

[nyiregyhazi]

Your hands are at your side when you play?  Jeez, no wonder you have such problems!

And it's back to trolling. The old interpret what someone said as if they said the opposite. What a hilariously ironic reversal of roles. Funnily enough, considering I am not so ignorant as to think that  relaxation is a goal after every note (rather than comfortable and efficient balance) my hands do not fall to your side.

[keyboardclass]

Troll

Sadly you've fed me so much I can't get out of my chair!  I'm stuck here posting!  Help, call the forum emergency service!

And Jeez, I've got the shortest post out of you ever!  You're learning.

[lostinidlewonder]

This should be in the "Anything but piano" thread.

[keyboardclass]

This should be in the "Anything but piano" thread.

+1

[werq34ac]

Not reading like half the comments before mine......


The point of "what happens after" is to have the correct approach to the actual depression of the key, isn't it? I mean it's like tennis (any of you play tennis?) The whole point of following through AFTER you hit the ball is so that you don't lose momentum BEFORE you hit the ball. If one doesn't follow through, one is actually decelerating the racket before the point of impact. It might be psychological, but you gotta follow through.

That said, the point of the follow through is so that the attack is correct.

[nyiregyhazi]

Not reading like half the comments before mine......


The point of "what happens after" is to have the correct approach to the actual depression of the key, isn't it? I mean it's like tennis (any of you play tennis?) The whole point of following through AFTER you hit the ball is so that you don't lose momentum BEFORE you hit the ball. If one doesn't follow through, one is actually decelerating the racket before the point of impact. It might be psychological, but you gotta follow through.

That said, the point of the follow through is so that the attack is correct.

Absolutely agreed- but there's more to it too. In tennis, you don't have to hit another shot within fractions of a second. In that respect, the manner in which you intend to behave after a note is not just about that keystroke but also the next. After the sound, it becomes analogous to how the feet are planted before a tennis shot- with regard to sounding the next note. If you're not poised well in either scenario, you cannot expect to control the action. Excessive relaxation can be equivalent to lying down on the floor between shots yet hoping to keep the rally going. Serious technique requires low effort but sustainable balance- not moments of extremely flaccid sagging after every keystroke.

[keyboardclass]

I don't think sports analogies give much insight into piano playing - maybe a table tennis player sat down returning 8 balls a second?  Even then....

Excessive relaxation can be equivalent to lying down on the floor between shots yet hoping to keep the rally going.

Sure you can't come up with a sillier analogy?  and, Mr Straw Man, whose talking about excessive relaxation?  Extremely flaccid sagging?  - no prize for guessing what that describes!

[pytheamateur]

A bit paraphrased but it's what a great pianist said to me during a lesson I was fortunate to have with him.  Methods tell you what to do - folks feel they've got value if they take away a set of instructions - stuff.  There's not much money in telling them to undo.

edit: Actually I'm not sure not doing is a 'happening'.

If you don't think much of Keyboardclass's views on technique, then why not ask him to reveal the identity of this concert pianist?  Don't see how this should be held back, as what he has said is hardly a trade secret. 

You can then watch some video of this pianist to see how this principle is applied in practice.  You can then all take this thread further by analysing his playing.

[keyboardclass]

In response to N's request:

I wouldn't give you the satisfaction, which you'd take, of speaking ill of the dead.  Schonberg says he's great - means nothing to you - but this lowly, humble piano teacher is happy to accept Schonberg's judgment.  

The guy is somewhere on vid but you wouldn't learn anything.  His teacher was a student of Leschetizky.

[keyboardclass]

.

[werq34ac]

Absolutely agreed- but there's more to it too. In tennis, you don't have to hit another shot within fractions of a second. In that respect, the manner in which you intend to behave after a note is not just about that keystroke but also the next. After the sound, it becomes analogous to how the feet are planted before a tennis shot- with regard to sounding the next note. If you're not poised well in either scenario, you cannot expect to control the action. Excessive relaxation can be equivalent to lying down on the floor between shots yet hoping to keep the rally going. Serious technique requires low effort but sustainable balance- not moments of extremely flaccid sagging after every keystroke.

Yes, agree, I guess my analogy had to deal with simply the follow through.

As one teacher put it, when you're fully relaxed, you're asleep. And so he didn't really like to describe it as relaxed. I forget the word he used.

I don't think sports analogies give much insight into piano playing - maybe a table tennis player sat down returning 8 balls a second?  Even then....

Why not? Tennis isn't just hitting a ball back and forth. You can't hit the ball with any real control without good form. While there is no artistic aspect to sports, piano is very physical, and sports are very physical, both seeking efficiency in movement in order to achieve the intended results. Since we are talking about technique, although technique lends itself to artistry, I don't see why a sports analogy doesn't work.




As for any joe being able to depress a key, no joe can really do much after the key is depressed besides releasing it. (well they COULD play with the pedal i suppose, but we're not talking about pedal.) (SPEAKING OF WHICH, there aren't enough discussions about pedal I think. There is so much that we can do with the pedal, and yet all the posts I've read on this forum are people wondering WHERE to use pedal when it's unwritten rather than how.)

[keyboardclass]

Why not? Tennis isn't just hitting a ball back and forth. You can't hit the ball with any real control without good form. While there is no artistic aspect to sports, piano is very physical, and sports are very physical, both seeking efficiency in movement in order to achieve the intended results. Since we are talking about technique, although technique lends itself to artistry, I don't see why a sports analogy doesn't work.

A sports analogy will work, a driving analogy will work as will a buttering toast analogy.  I just don't think they're worth very much.

[j_menz]

Blah blah blah. nyiregyhazi sucks.

Blah blah blah. keyboardclass sucks.

Repeat ad nauseum.

Guys, just get a room already.

[ajspiano]

Why not? Tennis isn't just hitting a ball back and forth. You can't hit the ball with any real control without good form. While there is no artistic aspect to sports, piano is very physical, and sports are very physical, both seeking efficiency in movement in order to achieve the intended results. Since we are talking about technique, although technique lends itself to artistry, I don't see why a sports analogy doesn't work.

I would argue that the physical adjustments made in tennis to achieve both accurate placement of the ball, and variation in speed of the balls movement - while clearly different to a pianists movements - are still fairly comparable in their mechanical/physical laws to getting around the keyboard quickly, and having dynamic control over the instruments tone through varying the speed of the key depression.

Both require a supple, balanced motion with exquisite timing, and an extreme level of control over subtle differences in the exact motion relating to both direction and speed.

^ Tennis is also an area where plenty of emphasis is placed on developing "speed power" rather than "strength power" ...and we're not even beginning to talk about the intricacies of their footwork..

Its kind of beside the point that the finished product has different aims, its still a refined movement being done by a human, on earth. - certain physical laws apply.

[brogers70]

Hey, thanks for the input but there are long term aspects like injury which a short vid isn't going to show.  The premise that relaxing as much as possible outside of key depression could possibly do harm is crazyness and will harm others.  Who needs a vid to understand that? 

You're quite right. A video of either you playing the piano would not show whether either of your techniques would be likely to lead to long term injury. And long term injury is a relevant consideration. On the other hand, videos might show whether either or both of your techniques lead to beautiful music. Not an entirely irrelevant consideration, either.

[keyboardclass]

On the other hand, videos might show whether either or both of your techniques lead to beautiful music. Not an entirely irrelevant consideration, either.

My youtube channel has always been in my sig line.

[pytheamateur]

My youtube channel has always been in my sig line.

No offence but I think what Brogers70 suggests is videos of you playing the PIANO.  When one talks about beautiful music I don't think even a high quality keyboard can ever do full justice to one's playing.  I did hear some piano playing on your channel, but it turned out to be that of Moura Lympany.

[keyboardclass]

No offence but I think what Brogers70 suggests is videos of you playing the PIANO.  When one talks about beautiful music I don't think even a high quality keyboard can ever do full justice to one's playing.  I did hear some piano playing on your channel, but it turned out to be that of Moura Lympany.

Moura!  Yes, that's heavenly - I searched through at least another dozen recordings - she was the only one who faithfully imparted the score.  Oh, the picture is some of my students on the beach - doesn't it just suit?

Don't you dare say the clavichord isn't beautiful!

[johnmar78]

Hey keyboard, i watched your video and you have a good sense of humour, it reminds me of doing martial arts, for example, "the wrist rotation" and arm extensions, it liked doing a front punch.  . but no personal offense ok., i think the way you repesent in the video is very amusing. Good work.
 Here is my 2 cents, the faster you want to play, the more hand relaxzation is required, that you use your momentum more than your muscle mass. Ease of muscle tension can create speed. ; also, playing slowly uses differnt part of muscles as  playing fast.