How to?!?!

[ajspiano]

I'm usually pretty good at pulling ANYTHING out of googles massive web index of information.

However, I'm having trouble finding any kind of reliable text that explains how to construct a piano from scratch..  anyone have any idea if such information has ever been printed?

[j_menz]

My searching reveals a vid here:

Also, a reasonable text description here:

https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Pianoforte-part-1-by-W.-H.-Davies/

[ajspiano]

Yeh I found those -

Problem 1 - I'm looking for something a little more comprehensive, as in one that would result in my actually being able build one should I decide to take on such an absurd project..

problem 2 - the w h davies thing was written in 1878. Hoping for something that encompasses ideas from the last century.. 

...The yamaha factory in australia said they can't provide a parts kit for a whole piano (no real surprise there but worth a try right?) - they suggested starting by buying an older/cheaper but decent piano, like a semi broken down U3 from the 70's or something and completely disassembling and reassembling it, as a start..


____

I'm assuming something like this may be of significant benfit..
https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Servicing-Tuning-Rebuilding-Professional/dp/1879511037

[j_menz]

You could also have a look at:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486231399/ref=nosim/pianoaccess02-20

Personally, (speaking as one whose relationship with woodworking can only be described as abusive and highly dysfunctional), I think you're nuts. But if your successful and become a famous piano maker, remember I tried to be helpful. 

[ajspiano]

You could also have a look at:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486231399/ref=nosim/pianoaccess02-20

Personally, (speaking as one whose relationship with woodworking can only be described as abusive and highly dysfunctional), I think you're nuts. But if your successful and become a famous piano maker, remember I tried to be helpful. 

Good find -

I have a habit of taking on projects that are WILDLY insane, and I do realise how ridiculous a project making a piano is with only a few books as a guide. - considering my woodworking knowledge being about equivalent to yours..

I'm not sure I'll do it yet, at least not for a little while, but I figured I might aswell take a deeper look into whats involved.

[ajspiano]

I might add..

I was thinking more along the lines of "once made a piano" than "famous piano maker"

[keyboardclass]

I'd start with a clavichord - you can buy any number of plans.  Start at the Yahoo clavichord group.  There is a guy (I believe in Australia) who makes modern concert grands from scratch (though I think he only made one).  The Yahoo fortepiano group may know of him.

[j_menz]

There's also heaps of information on harpsichords on the web, and several kits. May also be a good starting point.

[ajspiano]

Yeh I've been looking around at some of those..  also found this..

https://www.claviersbaroques.com/TPWStein.htm - its for a 61 key fortepiano, based on an instrument from 1794 (i think)

^it also says for 'experienced builders only' - somehow I don't think I qualify.. :/

I don't really want to do a clavi because I don't really like them to begin with..

If I do take this on I envisage it taking many years, and having to re-do many aspects, aswell as do small scale test runs for a number of things - I certainly would be doing a great deal of research with each step. I have a healthy amount of respect for the level of complexity, but also am not the slightest bit phased by undertaking extreme projects.

I would likely end up deciding on things myself but then making every attempt to confer with multiple experienced people.. this may be difficult to organise, i assuming most good piano makers keep their knowledge under lock and key.

It would be an awful waste to not be patient and conscientious about it - i'm sure that it would be very easy to end up with an structurally unstable, and ultimately unplayable instrument if the proper care is not taken with every inch of progress.

[j_menz]

most good piano makers keep their knowledge under lock and key.

In a safe protected by a pack of ravenous IP lawyers.

Be interested to hear how you get on.  Also, have you broached the subject with your fiance?

[ajspiano]

In a safe protected by a pack of ravenous IP lawyers.

Be interested to hear how you get on. 

Yeh -  I just emailed steinway to ask if they'd sell me one of their the cast iron frames if it was unbranded hahah - I'm not holding out a lot of hope, but will have to push this approach with as many makers as possible as I don't think i'll get a quality one if I just try to design it and take that to a cast iron factory.

its obviously going to be a very long term project, and at this stage its really just seeing if it will even be possible, I like the idea of trying to produce something similar to a steinway 'O' - its probably a little unrealistic though

I did find these guys - fandrichpiano.com - they consult on piano design with actual manufacturers so I may be able to get some ideas out of them, and some more comprehensive specifications than the "this long, this heavy" you get from well known manufacturers. I emailed them, we'll have to see if the cost is prohibitive.

Also, have you broached the subject with your fiance?

Yes, not an issue - I knew it wouldnt be. She's a professional dog trainer, which means I often endure and help with dogs that have severe behavioral problems (I've been bitten several times) - consequently I have the moral highground, and she has to let me do the odd thing that she mightn't like...   not that I mind the dogs, and I don't think she'd really mind the piano since I'd make sure it didnt really effect the rest of our lives too much

[j_menz]

I did find these guys - fandrichpiano.com - they consult on piano design with actual manufacturers so I may be able to get some ideas out of them, and some more comprehensive specifications than the "this long, this heavy" you get from well known manufacturers. I emailed them, we'll have to see if the cost is prohibitive.

Since their day job is selling this information to big companies, I suspect "prohibitive" is likely to be a serious understatement.

I often endure and help with dogs that have severe behavioral problems (I've been bitten several times) - consequently I have the moral highground

Haha, cool. Ouch, though!

[ajspiano]

Since their day job is selling this information to big companies, I suspect "prohibitive" is likely to be a serious understatement.

Haha, cool. Ouch, though!

I was angling for an older half arsed generic design with no inovations of any kind - and that I would likely have to agree not to use it commercially..  even then I may be pushing it..

..

It is my experience that dog bites (excluding severe ones) don't hurt - but thats perhaps because I've only been bitten by fear aggressive dogs, which essentially means that they lash out suddenly and don't hold on..  where as a dominant aggressive one would be more likely to rip you to shreds to assert itself.

Its your attitude too though.. we're talking about situations where I've approached animals knowing there's a reasonable chance it could bite me, and if a dog bites you you can't back down because it learns that aggression wins, so you kind of have to just ignore it and calmly deal with the animals behavior..  you usually don't even realise its happened until after the dog has calmed down and you've stepped back from the situation.

I'm hardly a voice of experience on that though..  my fiance would probably shoot me down in flames here and explain why I don't understand the dog psychology.

[j_menz]

I was angling for an older half arsed generic design with no inovations of any kind - and that I would likely have to agree not to use it commercially..  even then I may be pushing it..

Uphill, I would think. You may get lucky (or the "damn fool" sympathy vote) though. 

where as a dominant aggressive one would be more likely to rip you to shreds to assert itself.

Yep, but they're easier to bluff. The fear aggreessive ones aren't really in control of their actions and they're gonna bite you anyway. The dominant agressive ones are making a calculated move and may be put off if you hold your ground. They're the ones you really can't afford to lose to, though. If you do, they firmly believe they own you.

[ajspiano]

Google never fails - though we'll see if this turns out to any use yet..

Kelley, O.S.

Contact Person: O.S. Kelley Plate Foundry
318 E North St.
Springfield, OH 45503
Phone: 513-322-4921
Fax: 513-322-1322
Description: Foundry for Cast Iron piano plates to the piano industry

Apparently with the exception of steinway - these guys and one other firm are (or at least were some time ago - industry may have changed) responsible for building all piano plates used in the US.

Probably horribly expensive to order just 1 though..  :/

EDIT: - wikipedia says steinway bought this company in 1998, will have to reasearch that a bit deeper..
.

I also found a supplier for sound boards - but I don't really know what  i'm looking for so its hard to make any progress.. suppliers for the action were pretty easy too, along with piano wire, tuning and stringing tools and things like wheels, pedals etc... 

[j_menz]

And now is the time to start raising that baby elephant for the ivory. No time to waste on that one!

[ajspiano]

And now is the time to start raising that baby elephant for the ivory. No time to waste on that one!

I plan to bribe the local zoo keepers when the time comes..

[j_menz]

I plan to bribe the local zoo keepers when the time comes..

Maybe you should go with the clavichord, then.  Not sure a full grand will fit in your cell in Pentridge.

[ajspiano]

So I heard back from the design guys -

Cliff notes: 100K + and that includes complete working drawings and consultations involved during the production process. They have no generic/basic designs because all work is done in conjunction with and exclusively licenced to the manufacturers.

I kinda of expected it, but no harm in asking. He also said that he doesnt know of anyone that will sell you the cast iron frame at the moment - guess I've got some problem solving to do, unless I just want to buy a piano and take it to pieces..

[j_menz]

The cast iron thing got me thinking (sometimes dangerous). Cast iron seems a very nineteenth century technology. I mean, they made lots of stuff out of it - houses, bridges etc.  Seems to me  the only thing left still being made from it is piano frames. I mean, even those cast iron decoratice railint things are now made out of aluminium.

Why haven't we moved on? The primary function is to hold the strings, which means it has to maintain its shape against a pretty serious amount of force, but it seems there are plenty of other things that could do that now and be cheaper and weigh less.  Does the frame have a resonance function that just can't be done any other way?

[ajspiano]

I'm not really sure about its level on importance in resonance - however, this..

from - https://www.strand7.com/html/pianopaper.htm

Piano frame design

The piano's frame, the massive supporting structure underlying the instrument's acoustic and structural viability, must not only be able to support over 230 kN of string tensions but must possess certain properties that can appear conflicting. For example, the frame must be rigid but retain certain flexibility; it must have sufficient mass to assist the low frequencies but not to adversely affect the high frequencies; it should be constructed from a material with a low coefficient of thermal expansion to minimise changes in string tension and hence vibration frequency; be relatively straightforward to manufacture, usually by a casting process; be aesthetically pleasing, as it is usually in the view of the audience; shaped so that parts and components of the piano's playing mechanism can be accommodated, and be designed so that any bar resonances will not interfere with the instrument's frequency range. Furthermore it is desirable for the piano frame to have the lowest mass possible wi thout detracting from its musical intent.

Aparently for a little while around the 1940-50s one company made frames out of aluminum, arguing that its lighter and has similar properties to cast iron, meaning its therefore better..  Ofcourse I'd still have to figure out how to get cast aluminum right? and design a working frame, since I doubt anyone in that industry is going to say "sure I'll make you a piano frame fit for a steinway" :/

The design fellow at fandrichpiano seems really helpful despite the obvious complete inability to do much for me. He wrote back again saying that almost all prototype instruments have a frame made from welded steel (maybe a more feasible option without access to a refinery ) though I do want to learn a bit more about how that will effect the instrument before I consider it an option..

[j_menz]

Found a couple of links you might find useful:

https://www.piano.christophersmit.com/frame.html

https://www.mishasmith.com/index.php?/projects/023the-notes/

https://www.strand7.com/html/pianopaper.htm

[ajspiano]

Found a couple of links you might find useful:

https://www.piano.christophersmit.com/frame.html

https://www.mishasmith.com/index.php?/projects/023the-notes/

https://www.strand7.com/html/pianopaper.htm

Have seen the 1st and 3rd ones - will check the 2nd.

..have also been considering the idea that while many aspects of the piano get worn out and break, the frame is probably not one of them - and I may be able to purchase a severely down trodden instrument just to get its frame.. - this would also give me an action/set of strings to screw around with without fear of doing any severe damage to the "baby".

Its a bit paralysing though, as I can't really consider the specifications for the case without knowing the size and shape of the cast frame to be used.

[j_menz]

My understanding is that they do sometimes crack. They can be welded to fix, but not sure how satisfactory that is.

Most junk pianos though should have an intact frame, so seems like a plan.

[ajspiano]

My understanding is that they do sometimes crack. They can be welded to fix, but not sure how satisfactory that is.

Most junk pianos though should have an intact frame, so seems like a plan.

Challenge is going to lie in finding a piano thats the right size and that was good enough initially to have a good frame - but that has been neglected enough to make it a bargain.

^no guarentees I'll be able to find that without travelling interstate, and possibly overseas since I'll need to view the frame..

[j_menz]

There shoud actually be a few around just like that thanks to the floods.

[ajspiano]

hmm..  new option..  locate piano, break and enter..  drench piano..  return in the following days to make an offer.

...wait, I could just steal it. - though I may need a helicopter to do that effectively, and figure out how to remove someones roof...

[j_menz]

I'm baking you a file laced cake as we speak. 

[iratior]

Well, if anybody succeeds in finding out how to build their own piano and does it, they won't have to try hard to beat some of the products that are out there.  I won't name names when it comes to brands, but I swear, a local church got one and the sound was so muffled that it was as if the piano had been stuffed with wet towels.

[piano_vs_science]

if you want to make a piano from scratch, you must first invent the universe

[j_menz]

if you want to make a piano from scratch, you must first invent the universe

Or just find an old one lying around somewhere.