Hours of practice, injury, efficient technique and the lot

[indespair]

Is there such a thing as over practice? Or is it just practice with a bad technique over long periods which causes injury?

Is there a way to avoid injuries even when you practice for say 10 to 16 hours a day?

If not, then what is the ideal time span for a daily practice session?

Any other advice regarding efficient technique and avoiding injury is also welcome.

[1piano4joe]

Yes, there is such a thing as over practicing. I've done it and was injured as a result. I practice much smarter now. How you may ask? A simple question to be sure but the answer is not.

I once practiced for 16 hours stopping only to eat and use the bathroom. I discovered I could get calluses on my fingertips but I don't consider that an injury or over practicing.

I can now "practice" my way pretty much indefinitely.

My all time record has been 18 hours and without strain or injury. Yeah, read that last part again.

These are some of my ideas for a smarter practice session:

1. I have a plan for each practice session.
 
2. Long practice sessions require the most caution.

3. For continuous practice (without breaks) I practice one hand at a time. This means that one of my hands is on break. I very often do hands separate practice when learning a piece and switch hands often.

4. Most importantly NEVER IGNORE ANY PAIN and keep practicing. By pain I mean tension, strain,  anything at all. You must listen to your body.

5. I work on many different things. Different bars, pieces, scales etc. all according to plan.

6. I take notes.

7. Work smarter not longer. Analyze everything.

8. Breaks are very necessary if your practicing very long or hard. These can be as short as five minutes. Play 25 minutes take 5. Or play 50 minutes and take 10. Get up leave the piano and take in the mail or have something to drink. Phone your significant other. Whatever. O.K. back to the piano for another 50 minutes then another 10 minute break.

9. Does all your practicing really need to be one long grueling session? Marathoners run 10 miles in the morning and then 10 more miles in the evening. These days I rarely practice over 4 hours at the piano and I also don't practice every single day. My hands are all the better for it. When I sit down to practice it will typically be around one to three hours. Then I watch a DVD and/or go for a jog. For you it could be a bike ride, a swim or a trip to the gym or supermarket. Shopping anybody? Then I usually play again later that day.

10. I had to learn to lighten up and be flexible as this is not my nature. I must practice three times a week on Monday, Wednesday and Friday for four straight hours from seven to eleven. This was along the lines  of how I used to think. The times, days and hours were "carved in stone". I was (and still am a mental case). A much, much healthier way for me is to look at the results. I play faster, more musically, am learning pieces in a shorter time and look how my repertoire is growing. I'm learning more difficult pieces than a year ago. So, the times, days and hours way of thinking was just my OCD.

11. I may practice at the piano for one hour and then take a one hour break practicing away from the piano. This includes listening to new pieces, reading posts and/or books and analyzing new pieces. I have spent over 4 hours a day just analyzing a piece.

I don't think in terms of an ideal time span to practice. I think instead of goals I am looking to achieve short term, medium and long.

Well, that's me. Use what makes sense for you and ignore the rest, Joe.       

[keyboardclass]

Anything over 3 hours is best done away from the piano.  I do about one scattered hour.

[perfect_pitch]

Anything over 3 hours is best done away from the piano.  I do about one scattered hour.

Ignore him... If you have the strength and have managed to build up your stamina - 7-8 hours done. The only reason for doing that amount of practice though is usually only needed for Major University and Post-university exams.

However - after about 7-8 hours though may be a tad overkill.

[keyboardclass]

Ignore him... If you have the strength and have managed to build up your stamina - 7-8 hours done.

..as in a sad life!  The 3 hours comes from Chopin.

[perfect_pitch]

Good for Chopin... You're not Chopin though... neither am I.

So ignore him and do what feels fine with you. Ensure that as you practice though, you maintain your focus in mind, as well as the strength in your fingers. If you get fatigued after 2 hours, then I'd leave it at that per day, but if you can go for 8 hours...

THEN ALL THE BETTER!!!

[johnmar78]

most professionals do 4-5 hours, do as you think you need it.Soem up to 12 hours a day before a big concert.
 There is no stop mark. You only stop when you start feeling a discomfort in you hands/palm...etc.
In weekdays I do one session 1 hour 8-9am. and 12pm-2pm. 12am to 1am. Aveage is about 3-4 hours.

When your hands feeling a bit stiff, its time to start practice...

I hope this helps.

[indespair]

Thanks to all. Two more questions-

1) Are there particularly injurious ways of playing? If yes, a few examples would be nice.

2) Can anyone give me advice or suggest material for playing octaves efficiently? Whenever I play octaves I start to get hurt after 1.5 to 2 hours.

[1piano4joe]

Banging out large chords forte like in Rach prelude in c# minor might cause injury after a time.

Repeating 16th notes at 120 BPM might do it as well.

Build endurance, develop strength, take frequent breaks, warm up and pace yourself are all excellent ideas but keep in mind that each of our bodies has its limits and we must be careful NOT to exceed them for prolonged periods of time, or repeatedly and DEFINITELY NOT without appropriate rest periods.

Then there is the movement factor which I'm sorry I don't know enough about to help you with but I am aware of it and something called "movement retraining" for bad habits that were acquired somewhere, someplace, sometime.

Aches to Expect. You may feel some muscle pain in the following places:

Between the shoulders
Back of the neck
Upper arms
Lower back
Calf and ankle muscles (for the pedalers out there)
Forearm
… And even fatigue in the finger muscles!

Some suggestions:

1. Sit far enough away
2. Elbows just below key level
3. Practice fast first
4. Relax between the notes
5. Softer equals faster

The rule of thumb is if your arms or hands are feeling VERY tense or even sore from playing, you might want to consider that maybe your doing something wrong? Some MANAGEABLE tension may build in difficult works; it is inevitable. But stiffness or pain could be a sign of incorrect technique i.e a movement problem.

I am only an intermediate and don't have much experience with this. Most of these ideas I only read somewhere so keep that in mind. I hope this helps, Joe  
  

[pianoplunker]

Thanks to all. Two more questions-

1) Are there particularly injurious ways of playing? If yes, a few examples would be nice.

2) Can anyone give me advice or suggest material for playing octaves efficiently? Whenever I play octaves I start to get hurt after 1.5 to 2 hours.

I had caused myself tendonitus by practicing fast passages with my elbows and body slouched below the keyboard.  I was tired and not paying attention to how I was sitting. I usually try to make sure my elbows and posture are upright with the elbows slightly above the level of the keys.Since I didn't do that, It only took one session to cause several months of pain. I imagine this would have applied to octave practice as well

[keyboardclass]

2) Can anyone give me advice or suggest material for playing octaves efficiently? Whenever I play octaves I start to get hurt after 1.5 to 2 hours.

There's your answer.  Buddy, you're on a collision course with injury.

[j_menz]

There is more to playing the piano well than technique.

Ten to sixteen hours a day practice?? Even if you can do that without any injurious effects??

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy, and dull boys do not make great music.

Get a life.  Develop as a rounded person. Fall in love. Get drunk. Fall out of love. Go hiking. Pat a dog. Go surfing.

Give that technique something to express.

Otherwise, you're just a MIDI machine.

[ajspiano]

I'd be fairly intrigued as to how you would manage to survive 16 hours per day practice for more than 1 day, just on a mental level - nothing to do with physical injury..  are you a hermit? or is this just hypothetical?

[keyofc]

I used to practice 4 hours a day every day - and thought that was a lot!

Still think it's pretty good  though.

12 hours - I'd like to see an outline of what you do in one practice day for 12 hours.

By the way - I attended a Taubman piano conference and a lot of the pianists there were injured in the past and learned how to play without excess stress.

For octaves -I'd never practice them that long - however they did have something that helped me w/octaves.  When you stretch your hand for an octave and go to the next - take that small second to bring hand back in normal position, fingers together, before you extend them again - you have to practice that pretty slow before you get fast, but it helps.

[keyboardclass]

  When you stretch your hand for an octave and go to the next - take that small second to bring hand back in normal position, fingers together, before you extend them again - you have to practice that pretty slow before you get fast, but it helps.

Even if you just allow them to relax a little between you'll get some benefit.  I haven't much respect for the business side of Taubman but most of what they preach (the bits from Matthay) is excellent.

[johnmar78]

keyofc, here is 12 hour program which i have done it beofre.
Guys, if your are single has no families,and music is your only income, here is the program
1)
Morning 4 hours with metronome, slow fortate and soft(p)

2) big mid breakfast, juices, carbo and protein. have 4 hour break.

3) 4 hours playing section to section,(f/pp) increase speed with metronome.

4) 4 hours abreak, refill energy.
5) night time 4 hours with full expression with/with out  no metronome for 50%. The rest 50% playing at your own paste, if little tired, start playing p all the way, untill tension is EASED.
 Have a good day...I hope this helps

[indespair]

There is more to playing the piano well than technique.

Ten to sixteen hours a day practice?? Even if you can do that without any injurious effects??

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy, and dull boys do not make great music.

Get a life.  Develop as a rounded person. Fall in love. Get drunk. Fall out of love. Go hiking. Pat a dog. Go surfing.

Give that technique something to express.

Otherwise, you're just a MIDI machine.

Buddy, I had some fun like you describe it. I am bored of "fun" and all I find entertaining is music, delicious food and powerful indica weed. So, unless you have some helpful advice, piss off.

One more thing, I don't know if playing the piano is "work" to you, but it is my only source of inspiration, meaning, peace. It is the farthest thing from "work" that I can imagine.

Besides, I was using the 16 hour thing to set a hypothetical context. I meant- what if you could do it for that long without getting hurt...... my usual practice sessions are 4 to 6 hours long, my highest was 8 hours or a little more i suppose.

[indespair]

I'd be fairly intrigued as to how you would manage to survive 16 hours per day practice for more than 1 day, just on a mental level - nothing to do with physical injury..  are you a hermit? or is this just hypothetical?

I have never done it. I've heard that ppl do it. My longest practice session ever was like 8 hours.

[keyboardclass]

Buddy, I had some fun like you describe it. I am bored of "fun" and all I find entertaining is music, delicious food and powerful indica weed. So, unless you have some helpful advice, piss off.

What ever happen to love and peace?  Jeez, sh*t's really changed since my day!

[j_menz]

One more thing, I don't know if playing the piano is "work" to you, but it is my only source of inspiration, meaning, peace. It is the farthest thing from "work" that I can imagine.

Since I play only for my own pleasure, piano has never been "work" to me at all. But I find inspiration and peace in many things.

I'd counsel against putting all your eggs in one basket.

[j_menz]

What ever happen to love and peace?  Jeez, sh*t's really changed since my day!

And mung beans. I miss the mung beans. 

[ajspiano]

What ever happen to love and peace?  Jeez, sh*t's really changed since my day!

hahah - this is the internet - you don't have to be accountable for what you say either to or about anyone.

..not that I'm old, but I miss NOT having cell phones.

[j_menz]

..not that I'm old, but I miss NOT having cell phones.

Try the off switch. Just like the real absence (but with messagebank).

[ajspiano]

Try the off switch. Just like the real absence (but with messagebank).

That just means I don't answer it at the time - I still get certain people asking me why I didnt later on.. ..or asking why I didnt call and thinking that the fact that i didnt represents a dislike for them.

[db05]

Buddy, I had some fun like you describe it. I am bored of "fun" and all I find entertaining is music, delicious food and powerful indica weed. So, unless you have some helpful advice, piss off.

This spells danger... if your only fun is music and a couple of other things, that's very inhibiting. There's isn't much to do unless you're a sort of chef who can play multiple instruments.

One more thing, I don't know if playing the piano is "work" to you, but it is my only source of inspiration, meaning, peace. It is the farthest thing from "work" that I can imagine.

If piano is such a good thing to you, why are you "in despair" in a piano forum? Sorry for straying off topic, but I just had to ask.

It's one thing to be healthily "obsessed", and another to push oneself too hard. There's more to tension than physical pain.

To answer your question, a particularly injurious thing I did was to practice on a very heavy piano. I practiced and played through the pain to study for an exam. I'd say the stress was 90% of the injury.
 
I will never play on a bad piano on a bad day again unless I really have to.

hahah - this is the internet - you don't have to be accountable for what you say either to or about anyone.

..not that I'm old, but I miss NOT having cell phones.

Not true. You can't get away with trolling on the internet for very long. And saying bad stuff about/ to people. Digital karma sometimes comes swift and heavy too. But I do miss not having a cell phone. The fact is I don't really need one: the only contacts I have are family and online friends who are way out of coverage area.

[indespair]

If piano is such a good thing to you, why are you "in despair" in a piano forum? Sorry for straying off topic, but I just had to ask.

The name is just for ease of availability, i mean these names aren't common and are easily accepted by the site.

There is, however, a reason for which I am a bit in despair. It's not the piano, it's the fact that I live in a place where you cannot find any decent piano teachers or even books or music scores. I am mostly self-taught(with a few advices and tips I picked up from ppl) and hence my playing technique is severely flawed, I am a bit ahead on theory and composition though. The internet is my only source of information.

[db05]

It's true that a good teacher could save you time and avoid the risk of injury.
May I ask where you live?

I live in a third world country and formal music training is rare, but piano teachers do exist. The sheet music is harder to find. And the fact that teachers exist isn't good enough because most aren't very good either... and the great ones are usually expensive.

If you can manage to teach yourself piano, that would be great. I think it's still possible. If you learned theory and composition I gather you are of superior intelligence.

[keyofc]

JohnMar,

Thanks for your outline - that's really great!

But...no coffee??   

[indespair]

May I ask where you live?

If you can manage to teach yourself piano, that would be great. I think it's still possible. If you learned theory and composition I gather you are of superior intelligence.

I live in Dhaka, the capital of Bangladesh, a third-world country sandwiched by India and Myanmar(Burma in the past).

Superior intelligence doesn't quite fulfill the need for improved motor functions without which composition lags behind. Because until you are really good with staff notation and can hear the music as you read on(which I cannot, right now) you will not be able to express the full musical thought.