Social skills vs Honesty OR How to socialize without losing your individuality?

[db05]

I always get told to learn social skills. While it's true I want to meet people, make friends, have a job/ business and the like, I find a lot of skills/requirements unreasonable, unfair or unnecessary.
For example, why try to get along with people you don't like, and engage in small talk? Since working with people I don't like makes me more anxious than anything, I don't see the point. Such a scenario would only make me and the other person feel uncomfortable.

Since many members here are pianists and therefore a sort of artist, I wonder if some people here have trouble socializing in real life too. Since artists think and feel differently from most people. I like them because they're free from a lot of social rules. They are honest and expressive. Often they are on the quiet side, which I prefer. But it seems you have to be at a certain level to achieve respect from non-musicians. Or earning money from a musical job.

I do not want to learn social skills beyond what I already practice because it reeks of pretension. To me that's as good as lying. I've gotten into trouble a lot because people haven't been honest or clear with me. And that hurt like hell! What I would suggest is that other people should also try understanding people like me. It's not right to have to adjust to everyone else always and forever. I might lose my soul if I do that for an extended period of time...

I like music, I like piano, and I like the idea of being a sort of artist...
BUT if I can't socialize enough (with non-artistic folk), I won't be able to find any kind of work.

Any ideas how to bridge this dilemma?
(Not urgent, but I would have to look for a job sooner or later anyway.)

[ted]

I think this is a very important question with deep implication.

Good manners ought to be universal among all people, and are surely one of the foundations of a decent society. Unfortunately, a common delusion exists that having money, power, fame, talent, genius or some other exceptional quality absolves an individual from using good manners and decency in his or her interactions with other people. We see it day in and day out in the papers, on television, in the workplace, certainly on the internet, where it is rampant, and even in the home. It is everywhere, and I for one abhor it.

It probably begins in childhood. If I displayed ignorant behaviour and bad manners I received a sound thrashing from my parents or at the least a vigorous clip. Nowadays, in the public places I frequent, kids seem to run riot over their parents, who are mostly concerned with themselves anyway.

I hold very individual, often iconoclastic opinions about many things, including music, but have no difficulty whatsoever in expressing them in ways which do not include offensive language, abuse or bad temper. Nobody can take my individuality away; that is simply not going to happen. How can I possibly lose it by being polite when I socialise ? My underlying thoughts about a person may well include things that are negative, but again, who on earth am I to make assumptions about someone, let alone express them. So by and large, I do make "small talk", even if only to put people at their ease with me. Is every conversation to be deemed worthless if it does not scintillate with wit and profound insight ? I don't think so. Again, for me it's about manners. I don't think my views are so important and precious that they preclude an obligation on my part to follow social convention and manners.

 

[ajspiano]

I find a lot of skills/requirements unreasonable, unfair or unnecessary.
For example, why try to get along with people you don't like, and engage in small talk?

Because how other people perceive you effects how they will treat you, and what they are willing to do for you. In both business and personal life if you want to get ahead significantly you MUST be able to influence the decisions of people in power - including the ones that you dislike.

Further - if someone with no "power" has a lot of social capital with someone very powerful that person is going to be a very significant aspect to your success in a social situation...  Don't piss off the bosses daughter so to speak..

.... social skills are a requirement in life - its not something you get to avoid without also suffering consequences. And in any case, playing the social game with those that you don't like does not compromise who you are as a person - its just what you do to get important things done without having to break yourself for all the excess effort it'll take to do it alone, or to avoid the road blocks you'll face if you piss off the wrong people.

Basically what ever you do, you will have to deal with people..  either you're going to have to pay everyone off with money, or you are going to have to ensure that they think you're a good person.

EDIT: ..or use blackmail.

[ted]

I would probably draw the line well short of obsequiously trying to impress in order to advance and manipulate. I would rather retain my integrity and miss out than get ahead in that fashion. I took db05 to mean merely the common discomfort at having to maintain social etiquette in situations which did not immediately interest him because of his special artistic inclination.

I don't believe in that "how to win friends and influence people" philosophy, which I find cynical and manipulative. The book might be famous but it disgusted me. That isn't what I mean by manners at all, but rather a common ground of human interaction regardless of individual difference. It isn't hard to learn, and doesn't involve losing one's individuality or compromising personal morality.

[ajspiano]

well I didnt mean it as an advisement to deliberately manipulate all social surroundings. - depends what you're trying to achieve, if you plan on being a CEO of a multinational company its probably necessary.

The premise highlights the relevance of not pissing off people generally just because its too hard for you to be polite - many people have an impact on your life, and I don't think you can make the judgement that a person doesn't matter just because you don't like or agree with them.

[flyinfingers]

These are exactly the reasons why I hide out at home!  

[ajspiano]

Also, OP is talking about 'work' situations. And that means being more observant of such customs because your clients and colleagues have much more impact on you than the stranger at the bar who likes pop music exclusively (that would frustrate me).

You can still choose not to play the game, but it means accepting a negative return in some cases.

[j_menz]

BUT if I can't socialize enough (with non-artistic folk), I won't be able to find any kind of work.

I've never found "artistic folk" any easier to socialise with than "non-artistic folk". Just because someone has an interest in piano does not make them a nice or interesting person, and not having an interest in piano does not preclude it.  I find that if you start out with the assumption that others are both nice and interesting, you'll be disappointed way less often than pleasantly surprised. Just as difficult pieces can often yield surprising results, so too can "difficult" people.

I also believe one should not be anything other than polite.  

Unless you really mean it.

[j_menz]

EDIT: ..or use blackmail.

*checks past posts for incriminating evidence* 

[ajspiano]

I also believe one should not be anything other than polite.  

Unless you really mean it.

I have a part time job where I am consistently impolite and rude to my boss, because he has no respect for people who let him dictate their actions. The game has strange rules.

[flyinfingers]

I hate to cut to the chase about all of this.  But, in my opinion, in order to be accepted into society by most people, you have to be a genuinely sweet person (never saying no) and appeasing everyone with a smile on your face 24/7 and walking around through life like everything is peachy keen all the time.   There's no other way around it!
I have a sister like this: can't say no and then she bitches about it!
These are the types of people who get taken advantage of, so it's a double-edged sword no matter how you look at it.   

[johnmar78]

well, playing piano is a one man band, but acompaning piano is a "team" band. I have met lots pianist in real life, some friendly some dnt this includes both professinal pianist and amateur. Even on the piano forum so as others. Some do not even know they are anti social, therefore I treated it as "unkind" people. I do not blame them but blame their upbrigings.

I relarity, thinking about this, you want to be good, and work hard all the time you are facing the piano or married to piano, so 80% of your time is occupied talking to piano than socializing.

There are few popular ones that showing a good social skills, like Askanzy, Matha Arg;Philda Green, Lang Lang, these people they work with the environment they humble and honest down to earth. not only there music interpretation but there diplomatic human approach-attitude.

On the contray,Thoses, arrogant, thinking they are best, hide everything from themselves, I called it a WERIDO. And I am not supprised sometimes it is hard to make a living just playing the piano. 
I hope this makes sense...

[thalbergmad]

There is no denying the fact that bumlickers seem to get promoted faster.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

why try to get along with people you don't like

This is something I have always struggled with. I have disliked almost everyone I have ever worked with, but mainly creepers and bloody women with their bloody kids who keep buggering off home early and coming in late.

Women who want to have a career should be steralized, so the rest of the workforce don't have to make up their hours for nothing.

Thal

[johnmar78]

I agree with you Tal, if they want to be equal and not being sexist, they should follow the same rule as everyone else. Some woman, really has narrow minded and get angry quickly, but I forgive them being a woman. I suppose, this is why God made man and woman meant to be differnt to compensate each other.

[thalbergmad]

The worst thing is when they come into work with their horrid babies during maternity leave and all the other women stop work and crowd around the bloody thing pretending it is lovely. Then, I end up doing even more of their work.

It should be written into Employment Law that women should only accept jobs if they promise not to get up the duff. If they do, it should be instant sacking.

The sooner evolution progresses so that they lay eggs, the better off the average workplace will be.

Thal

[gep]

Happily, my job almost demands being a pain in the ass of several people, so I pretty much can be who I am and get paid for it too. I know this situation does not apply to everyone...
But as to social skills, well, they can be handy, but I do not think one should act in a hypocrit or false way. In principal, treat others are you wish to be treated in general, but treat others also as they treat you. And no, I would be completely unfit to work in a store!

As to Thal's remarks: I am all for women and men being treated equally but, strangely, it are mainly the hard-core feminists who get insenced if a man treats a woman collegue as he treats his male collegues (i.e. expects the same of them). I do not know the situation in other contries, but here workfloors (especially offices) are flooded with women who want to work part-time, whine all the time about how they want their jobs to be fun and exciting and how this or that collegue isn't nice to them a how the job should provide them room for self-exploration and -fullfillment but seem incapable of getting it into their heads that jobs are not always fun (let allone collegues) and about you. "Oh no, I cannot work overtime, I have to get Brat out of school!". Yes, well, there are some male workers too who have kids to get from school and such. They don't have privileges! Stop whining and get working! (NB: all this does not apply to all working women, I emphazise! Many do know what 'having a job' means. And quite a few men are pretty bad, too!).

Yep, I'm a sexist bastard, and I know it. Indeed I do not think women are any more special then men are, or should be treated differently.

all best,
gep

[db05]

I was about to regret writing my post that way; what I intended at first was a more casual way of asking "Hey, how's your social life and stuff when you're away from the piano?" But I was in a bad mood and feeling suffocated.

Leave it to Thal to make interesting conversation. And yet it's not "small talk" in my opinion. These are important matters. Not like the latest gossip.

I don't believe in that "how to win friends and influence people" philosophy, which I find cynical and manipulative. The book might be famous but it disgusted me. That isn't what I mean by manners at all, but rather a common ground of human interaction regardless of individual difference. It isn't hard to learn, and doesn't involve losing one's individuality or compromising personal morality.

I read that book earlier this year. It's not half as bad as I expected. I was applying some of its principles, although very seldom - when I'm friends with someone I'm lavish with praise, for instance. What is hard is getting through to "difficult" people (to me). Manipulation could work with great actors, but if I try that, people would just see right through it.

Also there's a danger of putting people off not because I hate them, but because I like them very much. That happens a lot too, and the rejection hurts even more. So what if you really do want to impress someone? How can that not be seen as being impolite without being manipulative?

I doubt there is such a thing as a common ground... there are just too many roles to consider, just go to another building and the culture changes. Thal's got something going with the mommies. Males and females have conflicts even now! What more could be said about supervisors vs team members or singers vs instrumentalists?

What I'm considering is drawing a sort of duration/intensity line. To determine someone's conformity limits. For example "6 hours a day, medium stress, no distractions. High stress only up to 3 hours, then sleep. Spend 6 hours a day on interests, no interruptions... Never talk to person A about anything ever again... Person B is okay, but avoid the topic of Schumann... etc"

I'm a lot more friendly when I'm in a good mood, of course. And what better way to have a good mood than taking some time off? Since people can't read others' feelings, there should be a way to just walk out peacefully without having to hurt anyone... but often I just try to please everybody since I don't have a well-phrased alibi. "Uhm, I gotta play piano all of a sudden! *poof?*"

To try to please everyone and smile all the time is kinda creepy... But THANK YOU!  
I love the interesting posts around here (wanna see how impolitely affectionate I can get?)

[flyinfingers]

This is something I have always struggled with. I have disliked almost everyone I have ever worked with, but mainly creepers and bloody women with their bloody kids who keep buggering off home early and coming in late.

Women who want to have a career should be steralized, so the rest of the workforce don't have to make up their hours for nothing.

Thal

HA!  Had to chime in here because I was discriminated against for not having children!  When I worked as a pro tem court reporter in California, I used to call in to get my schedule and see if I had work.  Then one of the staff, who doles out the assignments, told me that they give work to the single moms with kids first!  Didn't matter that I was putting a husband through school!
You're funny, Thal!

[thalbergmad]

HA!  Had to chime in here because I was discriminated against for not having children! 

I feel that I am on occasions. I have frequently taken crap from customers complaining about work not being done by somebody who has already gone home to pick little Jimmy up from school.

When I started my "career" in a Bank, I thought that not having kids would be an advantage in getting promoted as I could work longer hours, be more flexible with my hours and more reliable. However, I simply ended up burning myself out doing the work of bloody women who were not there as their little darling refused to do maypole dancing or some other stupid reason.

The work/life balance for female employees with kids in England has been steadily moving towards more life and less work, but in the end, they will have so many "rights" that no employer in the Country would employ a female of childbirth age.

Thal

[Derek]

I felt the same way for a long time. Then I got married. Now, I interact normally with people and don't have much trouble accepting that people find me a bit odd. Nice, but odd. That may be just a happy coincidence of what I learned from the woman I married, I suppose, I suppose one could marry the wrong sort of person and actually learn to exacerbate these problems. So, probably don't take that as advice, just sharing my experience.

[jesc]

My social skills are governed by what I perceive to be the social norm.

Unfortunately, I picked up some values as I was brought up which runs deep. Values of fairness, do what is just, etc. However, my adult values are different.

In my adult life, I've aimed to be souless without any core values so that I can adapt to any social/cultural norm (closes analogue I can think of is Romney's etch a scketch). But the core values instilled upon me proves to be hard to uproot.

The ugly truth is, everyone is going for the honor, honesty, integrity etc. values while I'm going the opposite way. The reason I'm doing so is because I'm so cynical that even though those values were implanted during my rearing, I don't think they actually exist in real life.

Which brings me to my current state wherein I'm literally thrown off my feet whenever I see these values done by the people outside fiction (kindness, sacrifice etc. in real life). LOL I'm a person who is shocked by goodness.

Example:
Let's take the norm in this forum and the value "honesty". Most I assume will look at honesty as a value worth in itself.

For me however, I pursue honesty for quite a different reason which is mostly utilitarian. I implement a policy of total honesty in this forum because this forum helps me in piano. The truth is, how can this forum benefit me fully if I'm dishonest?

Specifically, if I pretend to be someone I'm not, the advice given to me will be useless since it is aimed at a ghost which is not really me. That dishonesty compromises the actual benefit this forum has.  

Now, there are people having these core value without utilitarian reasons and I admire that in some way.

[slane]

I have given this sort of thing much thought in the last year. I was brought up to be tolerant and accepting, forgiving etc. We pride ourselves on being a tolerant society, however, I now believe that should not be the same as being non-judgemental. We should judge and we should draw lines.
I also believe that we should return to having well defined etiquette in all sorts of situations. A la Emily Post. The department of education here recently published a list of guidelines for interacting with students. e.g. do not touch them! Do not "friend" them on facebook etc. All common sense, but a lot of people don't have common sense. If you don't know why you shouldn't grab a student's bum, lets not get into an argument about it. Its the rule. You follow it. Everyone's happy.
Emily Post was all about setting out rules to make everyone comfortable and maintaining ones personal dignity. Both things we fail at miserably in this country.

Here are my new rules for my life.

1. Endeavour to be polite to everyone.
2. If people are rude to you, mentally hand the rudeness back to them. They are at fault. And assert yourself politely to explain how they have affected you.
3. Consider first if you may hurt someone's feelings before you speak.
4. Do not try to be friends with everyone. Friends come from people who share the same interests and ideals as you which are not usually your colleagues.
5. Avoid drunks, liars, thieves and the abusive.
6. Be honest as long as you don't violate #3.
7. If you can't find anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

#2 and #3 are very hard for me.
#5 has led me to isolate myself and my family from my husband's family. I have to keep reminding me of what Emily Post says. Which is sad. Protecting myself and my daughter from violent drunks, even if they are family, should be automatic.

I'm now wondering if I'm brave enough to stop kissing. I think that where two people have different cultural norms with regards to greetings, the one that takes the least bodily contact should take precedence. Two of my husbands female relatives (I'm female) try to kiss me on the lips! Bring back bowing I say!

[pianoplunker]

I always get told to learn social skills. While it's true I want to meet people, make friends, have a job/ business and the like, I find a lot of skills/requirements unreasonable, unfair or unnecessary.
For example, why try to get along with people you don't like, and engage in small talk? Since working with people I don't like makes me more anxious than anything, I don't see the point. Such a scenario would only make me and the other person feel uncomfortable.

Since many members here are pianists and therefore a sort of artist, I wonder if some people here have trouble socializing in real life too. Since artists think and feel differently from most people. I like them because they're free from a lot of social rules. They are honest and expressive. Often they are on the quiet side, which I prefer. But it seems you have to be at a certain level to achieve respect from non-musicians. Or earning money from a musical job.

I do not want to learn social skills beyond what I already practice because it reeks of pretension. To me that's as good as lying. I've gotten into trouble a lot because people haven't been honest or clear with me. And that hurt like hell! What I would suggest is that other people should also try understanding people like me. It's not right to have to adjust to everyone else always and forever. I might lose my soul if I do that for an extended period of time...

I like music, I like piano, and I like the idea of being a sort of artist...
BUT if I can't socialize enough (with non-artistic folk), I won't be able to find any kind of work.

Any ideas how to bridge this dilemma?
(Not urgent, but I would have to look for a job sooner or later anyway.)

You will have to stop profiling yourself and others as being of a certain character before you can bridge your "dilemma".   The reason artists are artists is because they ARE like most people.

[fleetfingers]

It's like taking a shower. By ridding your body of natural odors, shaving, and putting on a little makeup (in my case, I'm a girl), you are not losing your individuality, even though it is not being your "natural" self. You are making an effort to be approachable. Social skills can be seen in the same way - a means of communicating that makes people feel good about themselves and about you. It should be done in a spirit of love and genuinely wanting to treat people well; not in a spirit of manipulation. I have people in my life who attempt flattery to manipulate me, and I've learned to politely but firmly say no to them. I am still learning to be brave enough to tell them that I get upset when they do it. If you want something, just ask me. Quit trying to trick me into things. Very annoying, to say the least. I am not sure you have to engage in small talk with people you don't like. And, certainly, don't work for them!

I like the list of rules slane has set for herself. I do something similar, but it is as simple as this: attempt to be "warm" and not "cold". The imagery helps me. Warmth draws people in; a smile, eye contact, a friendly/gentle touch on the arm, having good manners, using kind and encouraging words, being a good listener, etc.

[faulty_damper]

There may be a propensity for intraverts to dislike small talk especially with people they've just met.  For intraverts, a deep conversation and really trying to get to know the person is the goal.  Only after they've gotten to know and understand each other does small talk occur.

Extraverts, in contrast, like small talk.  They are seeking social stimulation and not deep understanding of the other person.  Only after they've gotten to know each other do deep conversations occur.

What happens when intraverts and extraverts meet?  The odd social situation where one person talks about a sports game and the other actually listens and cares about the game being discussed... that's when problems arise because there is a misunderstanding.

Being an intravert and sometimes very shy, I've recently realized that this is how it works.  If I'm talking to an intravert, I can hold a deep conversation about many things.  If I'm talking to an extravert, even though I dislike small talk with someone I've just met, and know that any conversation will be shallow, the conversation will usually be brief but the goal is not to listen or understand but to talk to someone new.

I think that this is the problem in many societies, especially media-driven ones where extraverts dominate and in subtle ways, demeans those who are shy or intraverted.  E.g. it's not good to be shy, ridiculed for not having many friends, staying at home, etc. 

Susan Cain wrote Quiet: The Power of Introverts in an attempt to give voice to the intraverts.  It's a quick and compelling read.  Many of the insecurities that have been brought up in this thread is addressed in her book.  The world seems full of extraverts but it is run by introverts.
https://www.thepowerofintroverts.com/

[outin]

I guess I am lucky... I really do have two different personalities inside  of me. The other one (I guess the most real "me") does not like people and prefers spending time alone. But I also have another one that gets along with people, knows how to "work them", even manipulate them and can actually enjoy social settings up to a point (as long as it's not demanded 24/7). My work is all about people so this one I need at work.

I have found that honesty to some point actually is very helpful. I tell the people I work with about myself. They seem to find things I say odd but at the same time interesting. It is kind of cool to be a bit weird, as long as you can fake when you deal with total strangers. To those people that you interact with daily you can give a peak of your real self without too much damage. One needs to have manners but trying to please everyone all the time is not necessary... I am often amazed that I am so good at what I do considering how little I care about other people. But it could be the reason too, I can always be objective and rational. I have learned a lot from being with animals my whole life. Most people also react more by their instinct than reason and understanding this helps to deal with agressive ones (which I encounter in my work every now and then).

I think I enjoy piano so much because it is something where other people (except for the teacher) are completely irrelevant