Difficulty levels

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I was searching for the difficulty of this piece the other day, and it was rated an 8+.  Wow that must be really difficult!

Well everything's an 8+!  So how can I distinguish the difficulty of to pieces if they all have the same rating?!  Certainly Gaspard de la Nuit is WAY harder than the Chopin "Revolutionary etude" right?

I think the music library on this website should be A LOT more sensitive.

Maybe a scale of 1-50?

Or maybe not overrate pieces such as Chopin's "Revolutionary etude" by giving it the same rating as Gaspard de la Nuit.

[j_menz]

I believe that there are only 5 levels, all of which are entirely subjective (though rooted in reality):

1.  Easy Peasy
2.  OK with a little work
3.  OK with a LOT of work
4.  Maybe someday
5.  You have got to be kidding me!

I call it the JD scale (JD = Jaw Drop)

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I believe that there are only 5 levels, all of which are entirely subjective (though rooted in reality):

1.  Easy Peasy
2.  OK with a little work
3.  OK with a LOT of work
4.  Maybe someday
5.  You have got to be kidding me!

I call it the JD scale (JD = Jaw Drop)

Haha the JD scale

Maybe give me some examples of pieces within all five ratings?

I hope I worded that properly.

[j_menz]

Maybe give me some examples of pieces within all five ratings?

Well, as I said, its subjective, but for me:

JD1 : Fuer Elise, Clementi Sonatinas
JD2 : Khulau Sonatinas, Bach Suites, Schubert Sonatas
JD3 : Late Beethoven Sonatas, Chopin Scherzi, Etudes, Impromptus, Schumann generally, Brahms Sonatas
JD4 : Liszt TEs and HRs, Scriabin Sonatas
JD5 : Alkan Etudes, Tausig Wagner Transcriptions

[ajspiano]

- you have very well encapsulated the varying difficulties of the entire classical repertoire right there. Impressive.

I think levels are a load of nonsense most of the time, too subjective of a person by person basis. At best they are an extremely rough guide.

I vote for:
Easy or Hard - differentiation based on past experience. PS will evaluate a video of your performance and give individual level settings for all pieces, to be reviewed each month on a case by case basis. All gold members qualify for this service.

[49410enrique]

i say we should wipe the internet clean of such rubishness as past difficulty ratings and simply post and repost the same 'rate this piece/pieces in order difficulty/level, etc' over and over again on the repertoire board, i mean all that 'musical discussion' and piano music exploration and sharing nonsense is getting old blah blah blah ....boresvile.... bonus points for neglecting to utilize a basic search function for past posts covering the works being asked to be evaluated by those that will not be performing it. i mean after all everyone needs to know you're a unique snowflake....

[j_menz]

i say we should ... post and repost the same 'rate this piece/pieces in order difficulty/level, etc' over and over again on the repertoire board

Isn't that what happens anyway?

And, I'm not so much a snowflake as a hailstone.  My beauty is in the eye of the beholder (unless I take that out on my descent).

[49410enrique]

1.Isn't that what happens anyway?

2.And, I'm not so much a snowflake as a hailstone.  My beauty is in the eye of the beholder (unless I take that out on my descent).

1. oh i hadn't noticed.life is good then. i just hope the world doesn't end when i'm in the middle of ratting chopin pieces, i can't be bothered with nonsense like life abruptly ceasing to go on when i'm having so much fun.

2.   

[ajspiano]

i think whenever a "whats the difficulty" thread appears nils should lock it, and post a link to google.

Actually I'd be willing to take responsibility for that if he'll give me admin privileges.

[flyinfingers]

JD1 : Fuer Elise, Clementi Sonatinas

Wow, thanks for making me feel like I suck!  Took me four months to learn that Clementi Sonatina (five pages) and still haven't perfected it (close)!  Anyone want to buy a piano?

[j_menz]

if he'll give me admin privileges.

What a terrifying thought  

(If he does, I didn't just say that   )

[j_menz]

JD1 : Fuer Elise, Clementi Sonatinas

Wow, thanks for making me feel like I suck!  Took me four months to learn that Clementi Sonatina (five pages) and still haven't perfected it!  Anyone want to buy a piano?

The JD scale is entirely personal, and everyone has their own. It changes over time, as well.  I find Clementi somewhat logical and he uses technical stuff I know how to do, thus I can pretty much read straight through it.

I'm sure there are plenty of  pieces that you might rate as your own JD1 that I'd rate as a 2 or 3.

[flyinfingers]

The JD scale is entirely personal, and everyone has their own. It changes over time, as well.  I find Clementi somewhat logical and he uses technical stuff I know how to do, thus I can pretty much read straight through it.

I'm sure there are plenty of  pieces that you might rate as your own JD1 that I'd rate as a 2 or 3.

Ah, I kind of doubt that I have my own scale, but that's okay.  I'm just an impatient "grasshopper" (like Bernhard would say.)  I guess I'll keep the piano for now.  I was only being sarcastic, no hard feelings.  I know I have a long way to go and I'm not getting any younger!
Thanks for all your contributions to the site!
Cheers!

[j_menz]

Ah, I kind of doubt that I have my own scale

Yep, you do.  It comes free the first time you play a note. 

[werq34ac]

Actually, the 8+ thing is pretty smart. They avoid offending anyone by leaving the benefit of the doubt. At one point, judging the difficulty is subjective and differs person to person. It's not possible to say whether Beethoven's Hammerklavier or Liszt's TEs are easier (taking the example from j_menz's bottom tag thingy). So this sight just sticks them all under one category, 8+. That 8+ could be a 9 or it could be a 12, but it's hard to judge the difference between a 10 and an 11 so why bother?

The issue I have is how some pieces are rated as 8s and even 7s when they could easily be 8+. Also, there are some pieces that are rated as 8+s when they probably aren't much higher than 8.

For instance, Chopin's Barcarolle? Rated as an 8 but most people consider it to be just as difficult if not more difficult as the ballades. Perhaps not as difficult as the 4th, but respectably close. My teacher actually ranks it higher than the 4th ballade.

And some of Grieg's lyric pieces, in particular, wedding at troldhaugen. Rated as a 7, but I've always considered it to be (while not difficult) somewhat more difficult than say, Beethoven Moonlight or some of the Chopin etudes (all of which are at least an 8, which I agree with. Which ones are 8 and which ones are 8+ I don't agree with so much...)

Henle's ranking system is somewhat more detailed, but somewhat more disagreeable. Their system goes from 1-9 with 5 being comparable to the 7 on this site.

[j_menz]

One of the most terrifying pieces to perform I have ever seen is Alkan's La Voix de l'Instrument.  

On any normal grade scale it would be rated 3 or 4 (one double flat notwithstanding).  Its mostly a single (one note) line with a very sparse (and only occassional) chordal ornamentation.  

It's actually very beautiful.  It does, however, require absolute perfection of touch. Dynamic and tone control are essential. Even the slightest error in this regard sticks out like a sore thumb. No grade 3 pianist could do it justice. A lot of concert level pianists would struggle.  So what's it's difficulty rating?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

One of the most terrifying pieces to perform I have ever seen is Alkan's La Voix de l'Instrument.  

On any normal grade scale it would be rated 3 or 4 (one double flat notwithstanding).  Its mostly a single (one note) line with a very sparse (and only occassional) chordal ornamentation.  

It's actually very beautiful.  It does, however, require absolute perfection of touch. Dynamic and tone control are essential. Even the slightest error in this regard sticks out like a sore thumb. No grade 3 pianist could do it justice. A lot of concert level pianists would struggle.  So what's it's difficulty rating?

For some odd reason, I couldn't get the audio file? 

But the way you're describing it kinda sounds like Le Gibet.  I don't think Le Gibet is technically hard at all, but I think it's REALLY hard to pull off convincingly.  So I guess I deserves an 8.  I don't think a scale is only restricted to technical difficulties.

[j_menz]

For some odd reason, I couldn't get the audio file?

It's a pdf of the score not an audio file.  Here's a performance, though I can't say much for the quality of the performance.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It's a pdf of the score not an audio file.  Here's a performance, though I can't say much for the quality of the performance.

I don't know, I never really liked slow pieces because you have to concentrate so much more vs if you're playing something really fast.  I definitely don't think it should be at a grade 3.

[j_menz]

I don't know, I never really liked slow pieces because you have to concentrate so much more vs if you're playing something really fast. 

Quite so. But do not dislike playing them; some of the most beautiful music falls in this category. Just don't underestimate the difficulties.

[adam2]

Maybe instead of revamping the GRADING system, try something like a division system like 8.5iii or 8.7i (roman numerals), and to grade truly virtuosic, truly punishing and irrationally difficult feats, go into 8.10

Or instead use predetermined qualitative lettering for 8+, because for the advanced, it's less that it is difficult and more about WHAT it is that is a challenge.  Different advanced players will excell at different categories, accounting for disparities in different players' personal JD lists..  '8+ b,f,g' or '8+ a,c see notes' or whatever.

[werq34ac]

Maybe instead of revamping the GRADING system, try something like a division system like 8.5iii or 8.7i (roman numerals), and to grade truly virtuosic, truly punishing and irrationally difficult feats, go into 8.10

Or instead use predetermined qualitative lettering for 8+, because for the advanced, it's less that it is difficult and more about WHAT it is that is a challenge.  Different advanced players will excell at different categories, accounting for disparities in different players' personal JD lists..  '8+ b,f,g' or '8+ a,c see notes' or whatever.

A single piece can present multiple difficulties while multiple pieces can present no difficulty at all. It's an interesting idea, but it would still be quite flawed. Categorizing individual pieces would be an enormous challenge.

[chopin2015]

Yeah, we should never talk about difficulty of pieces ever again because according to rach_forever, there's a 10 year old chinese kid playing it somewhere no matter what you work on. So there, we killed it. Now why are the ratings on the Urtext website in green, shouldn't they be in red, as in if you try this you might bleed? Also, I agree with J_menz, those ratings are adequate and now I am convinced that the despair and feeling of being lost is actually because there is a truth to ratings no matter what you guys say. J menz is right.

[j_menz]

J menz is right.

Always. Though you should re-read what I actually wrote. You appear to have misinterpreted.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

according to rach_forever, there's a 10 year old chinese kid playing it somewhere no matter what you work on.

It's true!!!

There's a video of a 12 year old little girl playing Rachmaninoff's 2nd sonata!

You thought La Campanella was hard?  There's a freaking 9 year old playing it!!!

[chopin2015]

Always. Though you should re-read what I actually wrote. You appear to have misinterpreted.

Hahaha I misinterpret alot of things 

[werq34ac]

It's true!!!

There's a video of a 12 year old little girl playing Rachmaninoff's 2nd sonata!

You thought La Campanella was hard?  There's a freaking 9 year old playing it!!!

You can get however much technique you want with practice. Some people just take less practice. But that's not what's important about music. It's about the artistry. And it takes humanity emotion and intelligence to be artistic. Everyone has these qualities, everyone is unique (cheesy but true), everyone's interpretation is different. Everyone has equal footing in this regard. So just make up for lack of technique with practice. Developing artistry takes time, regardless of talent. Prodigies aren't born understanding the frustration of the appassionata sonata or the pure joy of Chopin 3rd ballade. It takes life experience to understand these things, and quite frankly, many child prodigies haven't had a life experience at all.

Don't be a tiger mom! Let your kid be human, experiencing the joys and sorrows of life.


Or have your son "Hurry up and be doctor and buy mom lexus."

[the89thkey]

Well, as I said, its subjective, but for me:

JD1 : Fuer Elise, Clementi Sonatinas
JD2 : Khulau Sonatinas, Bach Suites, Schubert Sonatas
JD3 : Late Beethoven Sonatas, Chopin Scherzi, Etudes, Impromptus, Schumann generally, Brahms Sonatas
JD4 : Liszt TEs and HRs, Scriabin Sonatas
JD5 : Alkan Etudes, Tausig Wagner Transcriptions

A little absurd this is. For me, there are two levels. Either a piece is not worth learning or it is.

[the89thkey]

By the way, this should be in the Repertoire forum...

[outin]

Offensive. Please delete this or I will report to the moderators...

I'm afraid you just made in undeleteable to 49410enrique...

[khantallis123]

How about a rating system for the "grade" using the JD scale?

[awesom_o]

Yeah, we should never talk about difficulty of pieces ever again because according to rach_forever, there's a 10 year old chinese kid playing it somewhere no matter what you work on.

No freaking way there's any Chinese kids playing what I'M working on....

 

[khantallis123]

What are you working on?

[cwjalex]

The problem with the current system of rating difficulty is that it only provides an average and does not include any information on the specific aspects of the piece.  Combined with individual strengths this makes this system extremely subjective.

I think an interesting and more accurate way to rate difficulty would be a similar way to the arcade game "dance dance revolution".  Each song has 5 categories of difficulty which are labeled at each point of a pentagon.  The songs are rated in each category from 1-10, plotted from the center of the pentagon, and then the points are connected to form a polygon.  This way you still have an average difficulty but you also have a compartmentalized rating for different categories.  This also provides an instant visual representation of the difficulty.  A song that is a 10 in two categories but a 1 in all the others would look like a giant triangle whereas a song that is a 10 in every category would look like a pentagon that fills the entire area.  I'm not sure what the different categories would be for piano but i think something like this could be produced to give a more accurate and comprehensive picture of difficulty. 

This is how DDR does it

[awesom_o]

The problem with the current system of rating difficulty is that it only provides an average and does not include any information on the specific aspects of the piece. 

The problem with the current system of rating difficulty is that is is STUPID! 

[awesom_o]

What are you working on?

Among many other things, this:

[pianist1976]

How about a rating system for the "grade" using the JD scale?

I think the traditional rating system is already stupid enough.