Mind-boggling polyrhythms

[flyinfingers]

I showed my teacher (new teacher for a month now) a piece I would like to learn.  She said,  I don't think you have done three against four.   So I assumed she was talking about polyrhytms, which I was never taught as a kid.  So since taking up piano again, I apparently have missed out on a whole lot of theory! 
Check out this video to get an understanding of polyrhytms.  I hope I'm getting all this correct.  Am I missing something here!
All I could see in this video were high fives!  Should have done something extraordinary before watching it!
 

[j_menz]

Before doing a three against four polyrhythhm, I'd strongly suggest you get 2 against 3 down pat.

These things aren't as easy as they first appear, and there are some reasonably advanced pianists who still struggle with them.

Get your teachers advice on this. If you want to play the piece you showed your teacher, you should allow your teacher to build up the necessay skills. Just because you think it sounds do-able doesn't mean it won't come as a nasty shock when you try.

[candlelightpiano]

I couldn't finish watching the video because it was so crackly and noisy.  I've been playing a lot of polyrhythms with Fantasie Impromptu and Consolation No 3 and I still have difficulty with them in some areas.  What are you needing help on?  What's the piece?

[flyinfingers]

Choo, you are the one who piqued my interest with polyrhytms, so I did some research on them.   I don't recall the piece.  I had printed out a bunch of sheet music and took them to my lesson today (I guess they're on the wish-list now).  
Apparently, I am just enlightened with all of this polyrhytm stuff.   I guess I'll just take my teacher's advice because I didn't know this was all so technical, intrinsic information.  My last teacher wanted me to learn a Chopin Nocturne that was a level 8 and I knew it was out of my capability so I got confused.
I'm being a grasshopper!   I am a sprinter, not an endurance athlete.  She placed a turtle on the piano today (as a joke but made a statement) and I said, "Hey, that's our builder when we built our home."  I will try to be a turtle from now on.
Thanks
J-menz, you are so correct on following my teacher's advice.  She's a very wise woman with vast piano knowledge.

[candlelightpiano]

It's okay for you to learn polyrhythms even if you're not at Level 8.  AJ posted some of his compositions on the Consolation thread.  They're 3 in 2s and 4 in 3s.  You could print them out and play them.  He also posted one or two recordings of him playing them beautifully.  Most of them aren't that hard to learn, really. 

I have trouble with the 4 in 3s in Consolation because it's a slow piece of music and the polys have to fit in really good while in FI in the fast passages, they can be squeezed in, so they're easier.  I'm still having a bit of problem with the 3 in 2 polys in the slow middle section of FI. I get some of them and not others. 

You just have to keep the LH going at a strict time and the RH notes fit in.  You can use a rhyme like not-di-fi-cult for the 3 in 2 polys.  I'm not sure what rhyme to use for the 4 in 3s.  In FI, I played them hands separately, then using a metronome, then fit them in HT with the metronome.  Well, if you're interested to know how to fit them in like in FI, I can try and make a video of how I do it.   

[flyinfingers]

Thanks, Choo!  I'll look for them and print them out.  Right now, I have a stupid cold and yardwork that is forming a cloud over my head!   

[j_menz]

You can use a rhyme like not-di-fi-cult for the 3 in 2 polys. 

Just a word of caution on that rhyme.

In American English, the "not" in this is a long vowelled word, "di" and "fi" are short vowelled and "cult" is long.

In some other versions of English (such as Australian), "not" is a short vowelled word, and so the rhyme does not work.

[ted]

Speaking for myself, and remember I'm an improviser rather than a classical player, I tend to favour actually feeling two or more independent things, not necessarily notatable, going on simultaneously. At first it seems much more difficult than using special tricks for special cases, counting and so on, but once the ability is cultivated, it is applicable anywhere. I certainly cannot think those things out; if I did that I probably couldn't start. Rhythm in general is very much an almost physically perceived phenomenon for me.

Cases like Fantasie Impromptu, and similar instances of two very regular streams, often rapid, with different cycles, seem to me hardly polyrhythms at all. Unless they are played slowly, the ear doesn't perceive enough landmark notes to make things difficult. If the rhythmic streams are not regular, but have internal phrases within them, then that is very much more difficult and nothing but truly playing and feeling two things at once really works.  Very simple examples of this latter occur in the Rhapsody In Blue.

Of course many jazz players acquire the intuitive knack of playing many things simultaneously but as attempts to write it out are seldom made the process is not considered "polyrhythmic" in any special sense, although it is - very much so.

It is always a delicious surprise when, listening to my improvisations, I realise three or four very clear, rhythmically independent ideas are going on simultaneously. I haven't the slightest idea how I do that. It certainly isn't deliberate and I think I would do well to desist from trying to produce it at the conscious level. Nonetheless it's there, clear as a bell.

As you will have gathered, I am utterly obsessed with rhythm. I think it is the soul of music.

[candlelightpiano]

True, as far as using a word to help fit the polyrhythms, that people of different countries accent their words differently.  Using not-di-fi-cult would be more American, I suppose.  There are other rhymes that may work better: hot-cup-of-tea or join-al-ter-nate. 

True also what Ted says about the polyrhythms in FI, that they're hardly polyrhythmic at all in the fast passages.  In Consolation No 3, the 4 in 3 polys are much more difficult because it's played slowly and has an internal phrase within and you have to play and feel two things at once.  I'm still having some difficulty getting those while the fast ones in FI are quite easy to do.

[j_menz]

Speaking for myself, and remember I'm an improviser rather than a classical player, I tend to favour actually feeling two or more independent things, not necessarily notatable, going on simultaneously. At first it seems much more difficult than using special tricks for special cases, counting and so on, but once the ability is cultivated, it is applicable anywhere. I certainly cannot think those things out; if I did that I probably couldn't start. Rhythm in general is very much an almost physically perceived phenomenon for me.

I agree entirely, and that's the way I do it now too.

That said, that didn't come naturally at the beginning, and the various tricks were the way I did it for a while.

[ajspiano]

Yes I agree also, the tricks are a means to an end..  that end being the ability to simply 'feel' the rhythm(s).

Perhaps a question of coordination rather than feel though, I think its not so much that a student has difficulty feeling the rhythm and knowing what they intend to execute - its that when they attempt it the hands naturally want to synchronise with each other if the physical coordination is not developed.