How to relax your fingers and octave playing

[johnmar78]

Here you go folks, I shrink Ian Holtham's techical syllbus into a short video, these exercise focus on total finger relaxzation and so as improves your reflex and coordination. You can use the same for your work(any work) and scales..
the principle is there, but its up to you to put it into practice.

Eg, Ian Holtham is the Dean of Melbourne music coservatory.
https://www.conservatorium.unimelb.edu.au/staff/ianholtham

The octaves exercise is done by myself not Ian.

Have your say...I hope this helps....

[indespair]

I never tried the 4 black, 5 white bit for octaves. Could please give me the name of a piece where that would be necessary?

Also, aren't you always using at least a bit of wrist action when you are playing octaves?
One more question, are you letting the fingers relax a bit before each stroke while playing octaves?

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for the video, John.  Sorry I went and posted my reply on the wrong thread!     But they look easy enough for anyone to do and I'll work on them daily, like you do.  Question:  Do you usually begin practice with these exercises or do you only do them later?

And when you tell us it's our choice whether to do the octaves with wrist action, what is your choice?  What do you prefer?

[johnmar78]

I never tried the 4 black, 5 white bit for octaves. Could please give me the name of a piece where that would be necessary? no, improvisation 

Also, aren't you always using at least a bit of wrist action when you are playing octaves? for me, no, i think my hand action is sufficient to give that tonality. But whirst is supple. Somepeople like to use whrist, but for me I use it WHEN required as last resort.
One more question, are you letting the fingers relax a bit before each stroke while playing octaves? I let my whole palm semi relaxed just tense the tip before palying. A bit like martial arts.Speed is power, but thru relaxzation.

[johnmar78]

Thanks for the video, John.  Sorry I went and posted my reply on the wrong thread!     But they look easy enough for anyone to do and I'll work on them daily, like you do.  Question:  Do you usually begin practice with these exercises or do you only do them later?

Choo, apply these principles on your reportoire, yes, your work.

And when you tell us it's our choice whether to do the octaves with wrist action, what is your choice?  What do you prefer?
for chopin op57 polonaise, I use finger method, why, because finger has slow twitch muscles than whirst, therefore, it recover faster.

eg, fast twitch for power but get tired quicker, slow twitch is for endurance but last longer.

[jeffkonkol]

alternating 4s and 5s and 3s from time to time is very necessary for any legato octave play.  There is a nice 4-5 shift that you can do on the same octave (strike it with 4 and shift to 5 to allow 4 to be available for the next hit)

chopin etude 25-10. (it's called octaves for a reason)

pages 1-2 are endurance work- (you will learn to relax- it is too long a run to play with tension)

3-5 are voicing and really nice legato work (work it without pedal)- the fingering on the version downloadable here is pretty decent

[faa2010]

I saw it right now, I'll try it this week. Thanks johnmar.

BTW, do you know if there is a video which can refer to how to relax the pinkies?

[nyiregyhazi]

What do you mean when you say how to "relax" your fingers? I see very little relaxation in the films, to be honest. Although many people drastically overdo it, I think you could work on being far looser at the keybed- with intent at finding only the bare minimum level of effort to keep the hand position. It's it's generically tightened- rather in a state where the activities are specifically focussed into what is necessary. Also, your wrist looks very stiff and I think you would be better off bringing in far more finger movement- rather than moving a braced hand through the keys. You're digging in hard there and clenching a lot of muscles. You can see that the arm is not responding freely to the reactions from the keys. You're clenching against them, rather than absorbing them. The whole arm judders at the start- with each individual finger movement. It's not healthy to fight against the responses like that. Ironically, if you loosen up, rather than clench the arm, it will be more stable.

Apologies for my bluntness, but I don't think it sets a good example at all to show finger movements from a stiff arm (or octaves played with a clenched hand). This is a classic example of the dangerous type of finger isolation- where the arm is clenched rigidly.

[johnmar78]

Nirg,,,haaaaaa,lolololol, no flame war here,,,,,,I diagreed with your discrpition 100%. Sorry.
the word "relax " here is a controlled relax, in realrity you can not have 100% relaxzation, you only relax to a levell that you can fully controll your touch. Each person's build is different, so if you have a weak fingers, it is likly to will relax less; on the contray if you had a stronger finger, you have a better control, therefore, more slack is allowed. I hope this clears the general misundersatnding about relaxzations.
If you find too hard to undersestand, think about the top sports man, they are strong but relaxed , speed/power comes from both mental and physical relaxzation. I think the only person knows if I relax or not IT IS myself, no one else., watch closer, my hand  had a slight rebound action as a result of key bed pushes up. If my hands starts to wobble, this means my force is not played into the key. Newton's law for every force there is an equal and opposite reaction. By the way my arm is all muscles from swiming. And If you can do 80 laps like me in 1 hour(all styles). and you know why.. . How much force I need to show is what you see in the video, only if your fingers are "weak", and you may need use your whrist and other parts help you to strike the key. Watch closer, all my shoulder weight in "lean" into my playing. What I called this "weight playing". I think you better off read some Franz Listz pupils book/teachings and his former students.
Anyway, this video just shows you that DO NOT JUDGE PEOPLE BASED on its looks. Because peopel always get the wrong impression, including you. No, I am very intense, and stressed, I have sore shoulders, backs, whrist, and finger tips. I play xxx
The thing here is I have whirst, shoulder, arm, all sorts of resources for me to play the piano, I know when to use it, when not too I dnt have to pretend to be showny, or make some bs movements to impress people. Because I know I am relaxed.
Number 1 rule here is "finger power " comes first before anything.And I did not say this, some one said it before me in 1955. and I beleived him so as others. Ask youself, how often you get sore forearm or whist after long training, but not much on the fingers..It is because the muscle types are different. Put this way, I dnt have these problems, because I focus. ;DI can see your scientic observation is biased and wrong.
If you can do better please Show your video then

[nyiregyhazi]

Nirg,,,haaaaaa,lolololol, no flame war here,,,,,,I think the only person knows if I relax or not IT IS myself, no one else., watch closer, my hand  had a slight rebound action as a result of key bed pushes up. If my hands starts to wobble, this means my force is not played into the key. Newton's law for every force there is an equal and opposite reaction. By the way my arm is all muscles from swiming. And If you can do 80 laps like me in 1 hour(all styles). I would not say too much. . How much force I need to show is what you see in the video, only if your fingers are weak, and you may need use your whrist and other parts help you to strike the key. Watch closer, all my shoulder weight in "lean" into my playing. What I called this "weight playing". I think you better off read some Franz Listz pupils book/teachings and his former students.
Anyway, this video just shows you that DO NOT JUDGE PEOPLE BASED on its looks. Because peopel always get the wrong impression, including you. No, I am very intese, and streesed, I have sore shoulders, backs, whrist, and finger tips. Show your video then

A person cannot objectively assess how relaxed they are, unless they have experience of being more relaxed during the same movement. Sorry, but the abruptly juddering arm is an unmistakable sign. When an arm is relaxed, Newton's reaction force can be absorbed into slack- hence little movement. Your arm judders so much because it is a stiff structure that is fighting the reaction- hence the more pronounced movement (despite your attempts to repress it with clenching). You need to allow your arm to respond more freely- rather than dig down/clench it.

I think it's also to do with pacing of the finger action. You start the actions extremely violently- with a real jolt. It's possible to create plenty of sound with a more smoothly paced acceleration, that impacts less on the arm.

I wouldn't be quite so blunt were it not for the fact that a person could genuinely harm themself by following your example of the most archaic finger isolation. Finger movement is a good thing, but the arm must not clench like that, or it will do more harm than good. The stiffness of your arm is the reason why the tone is so uneven here:

&feature=channel

[johnmar78]

Ni, this is based on Ian Holthamn study, we play as short as possible for REFLEX purpose, and nothing about your"jolt", get his technical book and start talking please". Second, Holding down the key longer, is the result of stimulating muscle groups as oppsite to reflex. To create endurance, down action only and relax holding down with arm weight as possible. Now clear??? Please, why dont you start write a book if your theory are so great. These people, they have been thru more taining than we do, and record chopin 24 studies, and so on. Do you think you or me are better. It is like saying, dnt critic on people, unless you are at his level or better otherwise appreciate what I have said.
ps, people asked me this question  before: you actually do p to f when training, my video is only a demo purpose, as I am busy and got other to do, you start pick on small things,,,,I am very dissapointed. You still have not got the whole pictur eof this exercise. +reflex, endurance from relaxzation. May be this is new to you.

Uneven tone,,lol, show me your op10-4, than you know I repect you further.  I said once, this is not end of op10-4, but only for time being, eveness, comes from fine touch, pp playing.

[nyiregyhazi]

Ni, this is based on Ian Holthamn study, we play as short as possible for REFLEX purpose, and nothing about your"jolt", get his technical book and start talking please". Second, Holding down the key longer, is the result of stimulating muscle groups as oppsite to reflex. To create endurance, down action only and relax holding down with arm weight as possible. Now clear??? Please, why dont you start write a book if your theory are so great. These people, they have been thru more taining than we do, and record chopin 24 studies, and so on. Do you think you or me are better. It is like saying, dnt critic on people, unless you are at his level or better otherwise appreciate what I have said.
ps, people asked me this question  before: you actually do p to f when training, my video is only a demo purpose, as I am busy and got other to do, you start pick on small things,,,,I am very dissapointed. You still have not got the whole pictur eof this exercise. +reflex, endurance from relaxzation. May be this is new to you.

Uneven tone,,lol, show me your op10-4, than you know I repect you further.  I said once, this is not end of op10-4, but only for time being, eveness, comes from fine touch, pp playing.

This isn't a contest and it doesn't concern me who gave you the exercise. Your arm is as stiff as hell- which is not a healthy way to build finger technique. You have a developed a reflex that involves tightening the arm muscles to resist the reaction force that stems from each finger action. That is why so many notes either half-sound or fail to sound at all in your Chopin Etude. That tightness renders freedom of finger movement impossible- no matter how much you might try to isolate them. You need to work on these things before you give instructional videos- otherwise you could end up harming someone.

Here is a film of my playing:

!

I have plenty of technical issues to resolve myself, about which I am not in denial.

[johnmar78]

Ny, I watched your video, Im liked the tune. I can see your finger tip just as bad as mine, I can tell you dnt like flat fingers.There is one thing I need to tell you. Be patient...I have been digging piano for more than 35 years and during these years I have been thru many teahers and thru lots experiencesnces on techniques.(i sacked some of them giving me the wrong advice).
This is why my techniques is revolving and improving, since its a life time project. I think, if you go to piano society and check my profile, i have more mp3 recordings on site than what I have here on youtube, during my 2006 recordings. I have played MANY MANY pianos, from upright old to 250000$ full size yamaha cf2.
My findings were the lighter touch piano are much easier to play than heavier touch piano, thereofe, less effort is required. Vice versa, if you were trained on lighter touch piano and suddenly you need to play/perform on full size grand in the comp, you will find, it is harder and so forth. These valuable infromation comes from myself and my studets and other piano friends. Often they said, Grand piano action is heaver than upright, especially the 100 years old upright. Therefore to resolve the weight issue, I come up with adding 38 g of weight behind my key actions on my grand, not to mention my second upright is too light. After 10 years trial, I gradually reduce the weights and now is back to 10% heavier than standard grand. Yes, this means It would be  easier for me to play piano shop's piano than my own one at home. Is that clear??? Make sense.

Back to my chopin studies op10-4, this one is the hardest one out of all-my opnion, I did 7 of them, the next hardest one I think is op10-1.
I want to chanllenge Chopins idealogy, so it is still under refining stage, and I am awre taht there are "evenness" is required for perfect execution..this is why I am digig into it. WHy dont you try taht youself and tell me after 1 year, since your piano touch(i beleived) is much ligter action than mine. What I am doing now is to spent more time on practice. Because practice makes better not "perferct". There is no such thing as perferect in piano playing, there is always a room for improvement, this is a danger thing that where we draw a line-stop. Back to last 35 years,touch touchwood, never had any one complaint or hands injuries from my teachings,,,sorry-I AM TELLING YOU THE TRUE FACTS. So here you go. Ian want us to work on fingers/palm muscles only and taking away all other parts of body muscles into his exercise, this is somthing you should be experimenting instead of telling me off that I am wrong and this is right. It is our human natural to RESIST CHANGE. I change a lots since last 5 years as compared to now. Here you go, have a try.

[johnlewisgrant]

Errrr///// is this still about octave playing?/

If so, my own personal experience is that light, and as close as possible to the keys does the trick...   

I can, for example, give you a pretty good demo of the principal them of the last movement of the brahms pc 2 (I used this example commenting on your video at youtube), which as you know requires at one point an octave leap in the right hand.

God, only God, knows how Cziffra did it.   And Richter.... well Richter gives instructions to God, as far as I can tell.

JG

[nyiregyhazi]

I want to chanllenge Chopins idealogy, so it is still under refining stage, and I am awre taht there are "evenness" is required for perfect execution..this is why I am digig into it. WHy dont you try taht youself and tell me after 1 year, since your piano touch(i beleived) is much ligter action than mine. What I am doing now is to spent more time on practice. Because practice makes better not "perferct". There is no such thing as perferect in piano playing, there is always a room for improvement, this is a danger thing that where we draw a line-stop. Back to last 35 years,touch touchwood, never had any one complaint or hands injuries from my teachings,,,sorry-I AM TELLING YOU THE TRUE FACTS. So here you go. Ian want us to work on fingers/palm muscles only and taking away all other parts of body muscles into his exercise, this is somthing you should be experimenting instead of telling me off that I am wrong and this is right. It is our human natural to RESIST CHANGE. I change a lots since last 5 years as compared to now. Here you go, have a try.

? I believe the fingers should do virtually everything. You're preaching to the converted. The problem is that your arm is rigidly fighting the responses to the fingers actions. That's a major mistake to allow. If you're not actively striving for perfection, don't expect significant improvements to just happen. As long as you're not allowing your fingers to move freely, they will not be under precise control. The irony is that the way you are stiffening your arm (in a bid to isolate the fingers) is exactly what prevents the fingers moving properly. If you typically practise like that, you're only encouraging the inability of the fingers to move freely. You need to stop clenching the forearm, or your fingers will not move freely- no matter how hard you try to isolate them. I don't mean to sound rude, but if you allow such extreme unevenness, you can only do harm by playing that études. I'd work on getting some scarlatti sonatas under precise control, before tackling an advanced étude.

[johnmar78]

Ny, speaking from my bottom of heart, my arm is not fighting against the finger responsiveness. Seriously, if that has had happened in the past, tell me how the hell i did my chopin studies with that speed, according to your theory about my "stiff"arms to your perception. God, know, that I built like a male not female, I play with my instinct...I have improved  since 2006. It is the matter of time you are avaliable to put into practice. My arm follow my fingers side ways when every I need to. I "cling" my arm on keyboard, is taht because I am not allowed to fut free weight into my playing . Do I need to raise my shoulders like a butterfly. If you are talking about my seatings, its the stock height, i suppose I have to stand up and play use my full body weight to produce tone(big chord only).....som where to stop.  If you watch Glen Gourld video, he sats very low, Alfred Bremble. So the bottom line here is to produce tone.

Talking about Scaratti sonata's, where you know they made for harpsichord, and we play it on piano..heeeeeeee, it just makes harder. By the way, did you visit Piano society artist page under Mar J.
Listen mor eof my previous recordings beofre you make more unnecessary  comments, that is not required for this piano forum. We respect our nebouirs not to insult them.

[nyiregyhazi]

Ny, speaking from my bottom of heart, my arm is not fighting against the finger responsiveness. Seriously, if that has had happened in the past, tell me how the hell i did my chopin studies with that speed, according to your theory about my "stiff"arms to your perception. God, know, that I built like a male not female, I play with my instinct...I have improved  since 2006. It is the matter of time you are avaliable to put into practice. My arm follow my fingers side ways when every I need to. I "cling" my arm on keyboard, is taht because I am not allowed to fut free weight into my playing . Do I need to raise my shoulders like a butterfly. If you are talking about my seatings, its the stock height, i suppose I have to stand up and play use my full body weight to produce tone(big chord only).....som where to stop.  If you watch Glen Gourld video, he sats very low, Alfred Bremble. So the bottom line here is to produce tone.

Talking about Scaratti sonata's, where you know they made for harpsichord, and we play it on piano..heeeeeeee, it just makes harder. By the way, did you visit Piano society artist page under Mar J.
Listen mor eof my previous recordings beofre you make more unnecessary  comments, that is not required for this piano forum. We respect our nebouirs not to insult them.

I'm sorry, but when you're presenting it as example for others to follow, you can't expect people to withhold honest opinions about serious problems in the demonstration. I appreciate that you mean well but it's not a good example of how to train the fingers- due to issues that you are not currently perceiving. If all were well you wouldn't be struggling so severely in the étude (which is not a matter of small slips- the notes are being forced out under serious strain and the basic control just is not there). You can only play at that speed because you're willing to ignore major tonal and rhythmic unevenness (not to mention a very large number of omitted notes). You ought to expect more from yourself. The reason is as clear as day- and has nothing to do with stool height. If you want to progress, you need to loosen your arm when moving your fingers. Until you work on doing so, they will not move with ease or lightness. If you cannot perceive the extremely visible stiffness (or the extent of the musical unevenness that is caused) it only illustrates the severity of the problem. Fingers cannot move freely when the arm is clenched. If you take this into account, you could make a huge amount of progress very quickly.

I'm going to publish a post shortly on how to move the keys with the fingers WITHOUT rigidfying the arm. The difference will be very clear in the demonstration videos. The trick is start with finger movements that are both smooth and slow (not quick stabs) and to perceive what the reaction force does to the forearm. You have to observe what the reaction does to a movable arm, before you can keep it still in an effective way.

[johnmar78]

Ny, you are an excellent lawyer, you want to do what you beleived is right. I think it is easier to talk than done. No one does piano works without hard work, you ask anyone.  I think I got a stiff arm, fine, that is your inteprtation and perception. I suggest you go to Youtube and watch some professionals playing and you can start to tell me if you see anyone with stiff arms and start doing your corrections. Do you run a music school??? I hope you do.  The funny thing is I never had any sore arm problems in my practice or so ever,,,so that is my answer for you. So Can you move on for PS sack.

I am getting there with my op10-4 slowly,,,,I just let it grow slowly rather to be rational instead of irrational. Time will tell.

I am posting a study on op10-1 with metronome at 100. And You can start to hijacking my threads and telling me I am wrong again...heee. Please. I hope you have a life too not just working in your small circle of theory that only works for you, but lacking in understanding that your suroundings, human skills not just you but everyone. Ok, You are dead right I have a stiff arms, I need a new pair from you, can we do a DNA swap.
By the way, all my postings and youtube stuff is for helping others, I never forced asked anyone to follow, its up to individuals, yes or no, at your own risk..lol. You dnt like it, just leave it.

[nyiregyhazi]

 I think I got a stiff arm, fine, that is your inteprtation and perception. I suggest you go to Youtube and watch some professionals playing and you can start to tell me if you see anyone with stiff arms and start doing your corrections.

Where is the logic in that? Do they struggle severely with the Etude op. 10 no. 4? No. Their fingers can move well enough to cope with it. Are you putting yourself on a pedestal alongside concert pianists? Before you can start approaching a professional standard, you have to be willing to look at objectively at what is not working. To live in denial is to impose limits on yourself. In person, I could show you how to perceive where you're straining in a matter of seconds. You need someone to put a very light upwards pressure under your forearm and you'll soon see how much you are straining.

I am getting there with my op10-4 slowly,,,,I just let it grow slowly rather to be rational instead of irrational. Time will tell.

Sorry to be blunt, but it's really not happening. I saw another film of the same Etude from 4 years ago? It's not going to go from a state of involving severe uneveness and missing notes to suddenly working. You need a complete overhaul if it's going to go forwards. If the arm is not free enough for the fingers to move without restriction, it won't get better.

Look at it this way- either you can tell yourself that you have no problems with stiffness in your arm or you can accept it and start tackling this issue head-on. If you ignore it, you will make no more progress than you have in those four years. That Etude is not going anywhere any time soon. If you accept the technical problems then, once you start dealing with them, the restrictions to your finger movements can start to be eliminated.

If you don't want to listen then I won't say anything further, but I've seen this exact type of technical problem 1000x over (and suffered greatly from them myself in the past). It can be improved very quickly- but not unless you start allowing your arm to respond passively.

I appreciate that you mean well, but your inability to perceive the stiff arm renders the exercise counterproductive- both to yourself and anyone who would try to copy it. You need urgently need to fill in this blind spot, if you're going to learn to move the fingers effectively. If you cannot perceive that the arm is being clamped stiffly in place, it shows how severe the issue is.

[keypeg]

The one thing that I absolutely agree with is that subjectively one cannot tell what relaxed or any optimum state is, because whatever it is we have experienced is the only thing that we know.  There are those wonderful times where you have entered something unfamiliar which you have never entered before, and you say "NOW I know what this is like!" And at that moment, with the new experience, you can see for the first time what you saw as smooth - relaxed - effective (anything), wasn't, by comparison.  What you had before was good enough while it was what you could do.  But it no longer is.  During the time that you had not reached this other way, you were convinced that what you were doing was perfectly fine.  This is how I'm experiencing it in general.

In regards to "being intense" in music.  I am rather intense myself.  But intense feeling cannot translate itself into a tense body.  It is an oxymoron.  Especially at times of intensity we have to allow the energy to flow from our bodies into the piano, rather than holding this intensity in our bodies.   As humans normally we communicate through our bodies.  If you are talking to someone and you feel angry, you clench yourself, get a tight or loud sound to your voice, and the person sees from your body language that you are angry.  If you're scared then you tremble, maybe get weak-kneed, or have a racing heart and feel faint.  But if you want to convey anger or fear in music then you can no longer use your natural body language to convey these things.  They must be transformed or channelled into a flow of notes going into the instrument.  It is almost like being passion-less (physically) in order to create passion.  This is something that I've had to confront myself a few years ago.

I am not in a position to judge the videos themselves.  I seem to recognize things that I am overcoming right now and think that I do see things that are being talked about.  Would it not be a good idea if there were a video of the book's author demonstrating his own ideas, or maybe there is a masterclass in the same direction?

[candlelightpiano]

I never tried the 4 black, 5 white bit for octaves. Could please give me the name of a piece where that would be necessary?

Also, aren't you always using at least a bit of wrist action when you are playing octaves?
One more question, are you letting the fingers relax a bit before each stroke while playing octaves?

Liszt Consolation No 3 is a piece where you play the legato octaves with your 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers on the black keys.  Also Grieg's Morning Mood. There are many pieces like that.

EDIT

I've been doing John's exercises for a small problem passage in one of my pieces and they're helpful and I don't find it tense. 

[ajspiano]

I've been doing John's exercises for a small problem passage in one of my pieces and they're helpful and I don't find it tense. 

The argument isn't that the exercise will be tense, its that john is. - and I have to agree, you look pretty tense john, like you're arm is rigid, this was evident in your previous chopin etude vid's aswell. Whether or not you actually are is perhaps another thing though..  videos are always harder to gauge this stuff by, and I'm not going to get into an argument over that - you are obviously satisfied with your technique presently, or at least your developing technique.

I have to agree with keypeg though, just because you're sure that you are not tense and that you're arm is free does not mean that it really is. It would be wise for all of us to remember that we don't know what we don't know.