Hand size and shape

[rachmaninoff_forever]

What do you think is the best hand type?  Small palm, long fingers?  Long fingers small palms?  A weaker thumb, a 6th finger?  I wonder how a 6th finger would work out lol.  Small hands?

[keypeg]

I suspect that it's how those hands are used, and that would include the body that these hands are part of.

[austinarg]

Well, Chopin's hand was not that big, but it had long fingers and wide stretches between index and middle, and pinky and ring fingers.



On a personal note, I would like to have 2 pairs of hands with 7 fingers each  

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I suspect that it's how those hands are used, and that would include the body that these hands are part of.

I know.  But I've noticed that people with certain hand shapes and sizes have special abilities and disabilities.

I mean what's the best hand size that would leave you best off.  If you know what I mean?

[j_menz]

I mean what's the best hand size that would leave you best off.  If you know what I mean?

Ones about the size you've got. Your brain is used to working with them.

Planning on getting new ones?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Ones about the size you've got. Your brain is used to working with them.

Planning on getting new ones?

No, I was just curious.  I'm sure there's a hand size and shape better than others just like how there's a body type better than others in basketball.

[johnmar78]

RAc, if you some research, there are hands of chopin placed next to Beetoven, Chopin is about apprx 2cm shorter on all fingers. I have seen lots pictures of pianist hands  , they all over the place. BUT ONE thing I have to say that , if you had a think fingers that wont fit in  between black key,,, sorry pal, you need to shave your fingers in hospital, or finger engeneering.

People with small hands, like some female pianist from Asian, some had operation between thumb and index, they open it up...yuk....
afterall, your BRAIN counts..

[beethovenopus2no3movt2]

"People with small hands, like some female pianist from Asian, some had operation between thumb and index." What are you talking about. Asains are usually very fast and articulate on the piano.

[ichky]

It has nothing to do with the hands.

It has everything to do with how you use them.

The best type are my type.

I have awesome hands and fingers lol 

[johnmar78]

"People with small hands, like some female pianist from Asian, some had operation between thumb and index." What are you talking about. Asains are usually very fast and articulate on the piano.

yes, I am against this type of practice, that peopel wont accept its natural form. I will find a link to proof you. This happens in China as told by some one's paino teacher.

Here you go, close enough..https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080829211122AAro2Bt

[virtuoso80]

I would agree that how you use your hands is FAR more important. If you can comfortably span an octave, I think you're good to go for the vast majority of piano music.

I have a 24cm hand span, but a big palm and short fingers. Teachers who are more 'finger-y' than me actually taught me some ineffective techniques for my kind of hand, one almost to injury. I also have thin wrists, so I have to be careful not to torque them too much.

[forte88]

I read somewhere that the shape of Chopin's hands and fingers wasn't entirely natural either.
Nobody else seems to know this but he'd apparantly made a contraption when he was young to stretch his fingers(coz his fingers where quite small originally) and Robert Schumann who'd heard what Chopin had done wanted to make his fingers longer as well and damaged his hands in the process(the moral of the story being, to do it at a young age when fingers are still pliable).
I guess it's a bit like penis enlargement. Some go for the contraption to stretch others for the operation.
Anyhow, don't be judgemental about pianists prepared to do this, perhaps if it wasn't for his contraption, Chopin would have never become the pianist he became

[j_menz]

I read somewhere that the shape of Chopin's hands and fingers wasn't entirely natural either.
Nobody else seems to know this but he'd apparantly made a contraption when he was young to stretch his fingers(coz his fingers where quite small originally) and Robert Schumann who'd heard what Chopin had done wanted to make his fingers longer as well and damaged his hands in the process(the moral of the story being, to do it at a young age when fingers are still pliable).
I guess it's a bit like penis enlargement. Some go for the contraption to stretch others for the operation.
Anyhow, don't be judgemental about pianists prepared to do this, perhaps if it wasn't for his contraption, Chopin would have never become the pianist he became

There is no evidence whatsoever that Chopin actually used any such contraption.

Further, to do so at a young age would be no safer that to do it later, and may in fact be more dangerous.

Schumann's fate should serve as a warning to any tempted to try it.

[49410enrique]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Chopin actually used any such contraption.

Further, to do so at a young age would be no safer that to do it later, and may in fact be more dangerous.

Schumann's fate should serve as a warning to any tempted to try it.

wasn't the schumann legend about the device just a more pleasant way of explaining the damage caused by the meds he took to try and treat a particularly nasty case of syphilis? i remember one of my music history professors talking to us about this but my mind autmatically tends to wander from boredom when we mention bobby...

[outin]

I can understand why some female pianists would have an operation to increase they hand span, if the operation is safe and doesn't give them problems later. It is truly frustrating when you cannot comfortably reach an octave. Just like it must be really frustrating if your fingers are too thick to fit between the black keys. In general I agree that it is more about what one does with the hands than the hand size and shape, but at the same time there are hands that are less practical for playing the piano and you can only compensate to some level when trying to be as good as those who have more suitable hands. Also I remember reading a study where small hands were mentioned as a risk factor for hand related health issues in musicians.

[forte88]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Chopin actually used any such contraption.

Further, to do so at a young age would be no safer that to do it later, and may in fact be more dangerous.

It was in a biography, and it stuck with me coz everything else was more or less what I knew about Chopin. But you're really suggesting the elasticity is more in an adult than in a child or are you just trying to be contrary?

[j_menz]

But you're really suggesting the elasticity is more in an adult than in a child or are you just trying to be contrary?

I'm suggesting that it is easier to damage bones and cartilage when it is growing and forming than once it has done so.

[j_menz]

wasn't the schumann legend about the device just a more pleasant way of explaining the damage caused by the meds he took to try and treat a particularly nasty case of syphilis?

Quite possibly. 

They had some pretty nasty "cures" in those days.

my mind autmatically tends to wander from boredom when we mention bobby...

Wash your mouth out!! 

[49410enrique]

Quite possibly. 

They had some pretty nasty "cures" in those days.

Wash your mouth out!! 

[forte88]

I'm suggesting that it is easier to damage bones and cartilage when it is growing and forming than once it has done so.

Methinks you've refuted yourself with your own answer

[j_menz]

Methinks you've refuted yourself with your own answer

If I have, the manner thereof escapes me.

[ajspiano]

Well, Chopin's hand was not that big, but it had long fingers and wide stretches between index and middle, and pinky and ring fingers.

Incidently, my hands look exactly like that.. (i could probably replace the model) however, while I have no proof, I'm inclined to think that the gaps are a product of extensive piano playing not something I was born with..  Too bad I didn't study my hands when I was younger..

Thing is, its more pronounced in my RH, which has had more of a pianistic workout than the left over the years..

[j_menz]

I rather fear mine transform when I'm not watching them, which is the case when I'm playing.

If I'm looking, I can make a relatively uncomfortable 10th, but when I'm playing it's no trouble at all. Odd.

They're also normally a little less bronze than the ones pictured above.

[ajspiano]

They're also normally a little less bronze than the ones pictured above.

I wear lots of spray tan - I get off on having hands that look like the model of chopin's. Because that's what makes me a decent pianist.

[j_menz]

I wear lots of spray tan

It'll also give your keyboard that antique ivory look.

I'm allergic, so it makes me look like Godzilla's hand double.

[ajspiano]

It'll also give your keyboard that antique ivory look.

I'm allergic, so it makes me look like Godzilla's hand double.

I suggest you play with gloves and spray tan. - and try not to breath much, in case the vapours lead to respiratory arrest.

[forte88]

If I have, the manner thereof escapes me.

'forming'

[j_menz]

I suggest you play with gloves and spray tan. - and try not to breath much, in case the vapours lead to respiratory arrest.

"The vapours" sounds suitably Victorian for playing the early romantics. 

**rushes out to buy something

It's actually my skin that's allergic. Big itchy blotches. Bleah!!

[j_menz]

'forming'

It's much easier to wreck a pot on the wheel than after it's fired.

[forte88]

It's much easier to wreck a pot on the wheel than after it's fired.

Don't you mean it's easier to form a pot on the wheel than after it's fired

[j_menz]

Don't you mean it's easier to form a pot on the wheel than after it's fired

Both are true. The activities you suggest, though, are more likely to malform than to form.

[forte88]

Both are true. The activities you suggest, though, are more likely to malform than to form.

Chopin(and the people that admire the shape of his hands) would disagree

[j_menz]

Chopin(and the people that admire the shape of his hands) would disagree

Chopin is hardly in a position to give two hoots about the subject.

Since there is no evidence that Chopin achieved the shape of his hands by anything other than genetic chance, and no evidence that any methodology along the lines you suggest would actually work to achieve such a shape in anyone else, what those who admire his hand shape would say on the matter is moot.

I suspect a number of orthopaedic surgeons may have quite a bit to say about your ideas though. None of it to your liking.

[ajspiano]

Chopin(and the people that admire the shape of his hands) would disagree

I haven't consulted a medical professional, but to the best of my knowledge it is commonly accepted that placing the body under excessive undue physical stresses, especially during its development, is just dangerous.

In any case, Chopin's music is a product of his mind more than his hands, as it is with all of us.

[forte88]

If you think it's so farfetched, speaking from own experience(and I started very late) my hands seem to have a slightly larger stretch than when I just started . I suppose playing the piano at a very young age is also hazardous to the 'normal development' of a child's hands?
Is the will to transcend nature not part of being human?
If Chopin was limited by what nature gave him, his spirit gave him the will to transcend his limitations, and this shows not only in the device he built at a a very young age but is characteristic for the music he made as well. I doubt if he would have listened if conformists like yourself told him not to do it coz it was 'unnatural' or if aghast faces around him told him he shouldn't do it coz it was 'terribly dangerous'

[j_menz]

If you think it's so farfetched, speaking from own experience(and I started very late) my hands seem to have a slightly larger stretch than when I just started . I suppose playing the piano at a very young age is also hazardous to the 'normal development' of a child's hands?
Is the will to transcend nature not part of being human?
If Chopin was limited by what nature gave him, his spirit gave him the will to transcend his limitations, and this shows not only in the device he built at a a very young age but is characteristic for the music he made as well. I doubt if he would have listened if conformists like yourself told him not to do it coz it was 'unnatural' or if aghast faces around him told him he shouldn't do it coz it was 'terribly dangerous'

The stretch to which you refer is natural and a normal consequence of playing piano. If not forced, and within the normal range of one's hand it is not dangerous.  That said, there are plenty of aspiring pianists who ,through bad technique and trying to force things beyond what nature has provided, have in fact done great damage to their hands.

You keep insisting that Chopin used this "device", but as I have repeatedly said, there is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. "I read it in a biography" simply does not cut the mustard.

[forte88]

That said, there are plenty of aspiring pianists who ,through bad technique and trying to force things beyond what nature has provided, have in fact done great damage to their hands.

Playing the piano IS unnatural and we're all the better for it.
And the way I see it, unless you go really crazy, there's no such thing as bad technique just tense hands, if the hands are fully relaxed, not only will the playing be more fluent but it will be almost impossible to injure yourself

You keep insisting that Chopin used this "device", but as I have repeatedly said, there is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. "I read it in a biography" simply does not cut the mustard.

Some people say the same about jelqing, that there's no evidence that it works, that it's just an urban myth, but as I write these words there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands that have learnt that it's not jelqing but that it's only possible with expensive surgery that's the myth

[j_menz]

Playing the piano IS unnatural and we're all the better for it.
And the way I see it, unless you go really crazy, there's no such thing as bad technique just tense hands, if the hands are fully relaxed, not only will the playing be more fluent but it will be almost impossible to injure yourself

4 million threads on this forum appear to be devoted to that subject. I do not care to add to their number.

Some people say the same about jelqing, that there's no evidence that it works, that it's just an urban myth, but as I write these words there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands that have learnt that it's not jelqing but that it's only possible with expensive surgery that's the myth

I will bow to your greater experience on that subject.   

That said, I fail to see the relevance. The question at hand is whether or not Chopin used any device to achieve his hand shape; and I say emphatically that there is not a skerick of evidence that he did.

[forte88]

4 million threads on this forum appear to be devoted to that subject. I do not care to add to their number

To what subject? That playing the piano is 'unnatural' and that this is to our benefit?
Strange, I would never have thought others so original
It seems more likely to me that you feel you've got your back against the wall, losing the debate and thus pretend it's unoriginal so you can avoid discussing something you know you've already lost

I will bow to your greater experience on that subject.   Shocked

It does require persistence(and time) and I guess I'd rather be better at piano than have a bigger/thicker dick

That said, I fail to see the relevance. The question at hand is whether or not Chopin used any device to achieve his hand shape; and I say emphatically that there is not a skerick of evidence that he did.

I believe evolution isn't the result of random mutation, but of epogenetic will. I think it's in our nature as human beings to transcend the limits nature imposes on us. Be it(if you're young enough) to stretch you hands if you aspire to be a world class pianist, to stretching your penis if you want to have a dick like a pornstar

[j_menz]

To what subject?

Relaxation and injury prevention.

The remainder of your argument has appeared to devolve into the prurient or the absurd.

[ajspiano]

I think it's in our nature as human beings to transcend the limits nature imposes on us. Be it(if you're young enough) to stretch you hands if you aspire to be a world class pianist

Perhaps, but it would be a sorry pursuit..  pre chopin (which includes plenty of AWESOME piano music) - the majority of pianistic figures rarely required a stretch more than a 6th and practically never more than an octave (though as we get closer to chopin they were getting more creative) Then chopin came in a freaked everyone out with the first etude and its endless barrage of hand positions suggesting that a stretch of a 10th or 11th is required.

but since the piece rarely requires a stretch greater than a 6th, excusing 1 or 2 bars, where you need like a 7th/octave reach. You'd be wasting you time trying to widen you grip.. In fact, stretching your hand out directly impedes you're ability to play it.. 

And that aside, the majority of pianistic "stretching" has nothing to do with what most people would consider stretching, and rather everything to do with how you let your hand move at the keys. Which strangely enough, has to be learnt at the keys..  not by sticking things on your hands to change the shape of your fingers.

[forte88]

Perhaps, but it would be a sorry pursuit

I guess that's your opinion of post classical era music

The remainder of your argument has appeared to devolve into the prurient or the absurd.

or you're just a sore loser