The Rachmaninoff Marathon

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay, so I really like the rachmaninoff third piano concerto right?  But unfortunately, my teacher said that I can't play it yet, IF I could ever play it!  So I was like, 'Dang!  I gotta do work!', and like an hour ago, I decided that I would learn the Rachmaninoff third piano concerto no matter how long it takes!

So I've decided to learn at least two measures a day including the rests.  I have a pretty busy schedule so that should be reasonable right?  I already know some of it, but those measures don't count; they have to be relearned.  

I haven't calculated how long it shoud take because my book doesn't have measure numbers, but it's somewhere around 83 pages.  My goal is to learn it before I hit 19 because Rachmaninoff composed his first piano concerto when he was 19!  

But yeah, a couple minutes ago, I rememember that there was an Appassionata project on pianostreet so I was like, 'Woah, what if there was a Rachmaninoff marathon!  That would be so kool!'.  But yeah seriously though, we should all do the Rachmaninoff marathon together!  We could post videos of our progress, help each other out with their technical issues, and maybe we could race to see who can learn it first!  

I'll probably edit this first post a little because depending on how this goes, I may change my schedule.

[zezhyrule]

If your teacher said that you're not yet ready for this incredibly difficult concerto, maybe you should heed their advice. It's always better to work your way up to learning difficult pieces than to try them before you're capable and fail horribly D:

[pianowolfi]

Haha count me in   But I can't spend a lot of time yet with it, only a few minutes per week.

[jayeckz]

But unfortunately, my teacher said that I can't play it yet, IF I could ever play it!

It's probably because your teacher can't play it.   

[rachmaninoff_forever]

If your teacher said that you're not yet ready for this incredibly difficult concerto, maybe you should heed their advice. It's always better to work your way up to learning difficult pieces than to try them before you're capable and fail horribly D:

Surely two measures a day can't hurt!  That would only take a couple of minutes a day at max?

[megadodd]

Ya it wouldn't take alot of time, but you have to keep in mind; that you have to practice the measures you learned previous days aswell.

[birba]

does it have to be the concerto?  Maybe each person could choose what they want and show their progress from time to time.
God, I love the enthusiasm of the young!

[jayeckz]

Surely two measures a day can't hurt!  That would only take a couple of minutes a day at max?

LMFAO!  Which two measures?

Even if you intend to learn the piano part with no intention of performing with an orchestra, the piece is absolutely brutal.

I bet I can find many instances of 2 measure segments that will take much longer than a day to learn (unless you have a fully developed technique ) even if you practiced it for several hours.  

Ya it wouldn't take alot of time

I'm confused...

Are you guys just talking about hitting the notes with the right rhythm in tempo?  Or are we talking about getting 2 measures to performance level?  Or maybe you guys are talking about committing the score to memory?

[pytheamateur]

Learning piano concertoes for me is such a frustrating thing.

There are many that I love and I have the motivation and dedication to learn a few as a lifetime project.  The big problem is that even if I have learnt one to performance level, it is almost impossible that I will ever have the chance to perform it with an orchestra.  Bear in mind that not even many professional pianists get this opportunity either.

To those who have concertoes in their repertoire, what do you with them if you don't perform with orchestras?  Do you get much enjoyment out of playing with a Music Minus One CD?  Does anyone know of any hi-tech software where an orchestra will play along with you?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

LMFAO!  Which two measures?

Even if you intend to learn the piano part with no intention of performing with an orchestra, the piece is absolutely brutal.

I bet I can find many instances of 2 measure segments that will take much longer than a day to learn (unless you have a fully developed technique ) even if you practiced it for several hours.  

I'm confused...

Are you guys just talking about hitting the notes with the right rhythm in tempo?  Or are we talking about getting 2 measures to performance level?  Or maybe you guys are talking about committing the score to memory?

I just looked through it when I got home and some measures seem PRETTY difficult! 

So definitely more than just a couple minutes lol.  I'll take that back.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Learning piano concertoes for me is such a frustrating thing.

The big problem is that even if I have learnt one to performance level, it is almost impossible that I will ever have the chance to perform it with an orchestra. 

Well I've never heard of Rachmaninoff's third without the orchestra before.  It would be pretty interesting!  But if I can't find an orchestra, I'll just record it without.  Or maybe if I finish this before I go to college, I can ask my local towns orchestra.

[roseamelia]

two measures will be good I've got a song that's out of my level but my teacher said you just have too do extra work. And from what I think that's true and you just have to practice to get it good.

-Rose

[pianowolfi]

haha well, I am practicing. A few minutes a day. I want to accompany myself, so I have to learn both parts from scratch. Lol

[49410enrique]

....I want to accompany myself,...

lol you sounded like Satie there for a moment lol
 "- “Before I compose a piece, I walk around it several times, accompanied by myself.”-Erik Satie

I agree with birba, perhaps you can 'open' it up to folks who want to work a/any Rachmaninoff work, think more participation by folks can enhance the chances that people can learn different things from each other. just a thought....

as for your project, have you considered working up a single movment transcription of one othe concerto's for solo piano? the percy grainger arrangement of the 3rd movment of pc no2 is outstanding and he doesn't 'water' any of it down, you can expect  a fair amount of head ache and frustration in putting that beasty solo together. just another thought.

i'm full thoughts today, i should just shut up now, i need to sort my thoughts.

[pianowolfi]

lol you sounded like Satie there for a moment lol
 "- “Before I compose a piece, I walk around it several times, accompanied by myself.”-Erik Satie

Haha yeah, he is so funny! 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay so I counted 1107 measures including the rests.

1st mvt - 449
2nd mvt - 172
3rd mvt - 486

So if you do the math, you would have to learn 3.032 measures a day to learn it in one year. 

Number of days to learn each movement with 3.032 measures a day:

1st mvt - 148.18
2nd mvt - 56.74
3rd mvt - 160.2 days

So if you can learn a measure an hour, you would only have to practice three hours a day to get all of the notes in a year.  Then after that, the REAL battle begins!

I'll count the notes tomorrow.

[pianowolfi]

I'll count the notes tomorrow.

I'm afraid tomorrow will not be enough to count the notes...

[49410enrique]

Okay so I counted 1107 measures including the rests.

1st mvt - 449
2nd mvt - 172
3rd mvt - 486

So if you do the math, you would have to learn 3.032 measures a day to learn it in one year. 

Number of days to learn each movement with 3.032 measures a day:

1st mvt - 148.18
2nd mvt - 56.74
3rd mvt - 160.2 days

So if you can learn a measure an hour, you would only have to practice three hours a day to get all of the notes in a year.  Then after that, the REAL battle begins!

I'll count the notes tomorrow.

i applaud your enthusiasm.

i would just point out a couple small (probably) important deets:
1. this assumes daily mastery on a technical level of each measure, i.e. you don't forget a single thing every day , day in - day out- at a 100% hit rate, that is- assumes that you don't have to 're learn '/or really reinforce any previous measures later down the line.
2.  if you wait until you know all the notes and rhythms to 'begin the real battle' i.e make sense of the score and sort of "add the musical elements in later" ala cook-book-piano style,  i think you're sinking before you leave the dock, this work is so big and the musical concepts and thematic elements, phrasing, etc. cover broad sections of score, taking it 'measure' by measure will force you to learn sections of music out of context, i'm afraid you will all but be gauranteed to need to 'relearn' much of it more than a year from now, and that could be problematic at its best.  also you're doing this behind your teachers back so to speak, i can develop bad habits in days if i'm not careful and really need and appreciate the outside eyes and ears to keep things on track on smaller/easier works .  omg i can't begin to fathom what i'd get myself into over a year....
3. that just doesn't sound like very much fun.

im not trying to be nanny pants party pooper but just wanted to express some reservations i am feeling about your plan in hopes that it helps you think about some counterpoints before in make such a huge investment in time and effort moving forward.

[birba]

I was convinced that this whole thing was tongue-in-cheek humour.  And I'm still not convinced that the originator of this thread is not kidding.  I mean, on paper, all your calculations  are good.  But in reality?  I don't know...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

i applaud your enthusiasm.

i would just point out a couple small (probably) important deets:
1. this assumes daily mastery on a technical level of each measure, i.e. you don't forget a single thing every day , day in - day out- at a 100% hit rate, that is- assumes that you don't have to 're learn '/or really reinforce any previous measures later down the line.
2.  if you wait until you know all the notes and rhythms to 'begin the real battle' i.e make sense of the score and sort of "add the musical elements in later" ala cook-book-piano style,  i think you're sinking before you leave the dock, this work is so big and the musical concepts and thematic elements, phrasing, etc. cover broad sections of score, taking it 'measure' by measure will force you to learn sections of music out of context, i'm afraid you will all but be gauranteed to need to 'relearn' much of it more than a year from now, and that could be problematic at its best.  also you're doing this behind your teachers back so to speak, i can develop bad habits in days if i'm not careful and really need and appreciate the outside eyes and ears to keep things on track on smaller/easier works .  omg i can't begin to fathom what i'd get myself into over a year....
3. that just doesn't sound like very much fun.

im not trying to be nanny pants party pooper but just wanted to express some reservations i am feeling about your plan in hopes that it helps you think about some counterpoints before in make such a huge investment in time and effort moving forward.

I was worried something like that would happen.

[49410enrique]

I was worried something like that would happen.

again now worries just wanted to share what was alarming to me, i could be totally off point. you could aways compromise and try yout approach to a single movement only. then if ti works and you work it to mastery then you'll know if it's worth applying to the whole work.  but in the end i think we should at least half way enjoy the learning process of getting to explore new repertorie, and you obviously love this work, i'd hate to see you 'ruin'it for yourself vs tacking later on in a different way that allows you to grow to love it even more.

again have you considered doing a solo transcription of a single movement that could be lots of fun, i can pm you a file pdf download link from my mediafire of the grainer score to the solo version of rach 2 mov 3 if you want.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

again now worries just wanted to share what was alarming to me, i could be totally off point. you could aways compromise and try yout approach to a single movement only. then if ti works and you work it to mastery then you'll know if it's worth applying to the whole work.  but in the end i think we should at least half way enjoy the learning process of getting to explore new repertorie, and you obviously love this work, i'd hate to see you 'ruin'it for yourself vs tacking later on in a different way that allows you to grow to love it even more.

again have you considered doing a solo transcription of a single movement that could be lots of fun, i can pm you a file pdf download link from my mediafire of the grainer score to the solo version of rach 2 mov 3 if you want.

Well, I have a little over two years to learn the Rachmaninoff, and I'm not gonna spend all of my practice every day just to learn the concerto.  I still have to prepare my repertoire for college auditions.  I think of it as practicing my scales or doing my Czerny one a day.  Kinda like taking vitamins you know what I mean?

I have the second concerto, and I'm not tooooo fond of it compared to the third.  so I'm debating on which movement I should start first.  I'm most familiar with the first, but the second movement is shorter but looks more difficult.  I haven't played any of the third so I don't know how that's going to turn out. 

[jayeckz]

@birba I thought he wasn't serious either.

@rachmaninoff_forever

I've played through the entire concerto two or three times (some sections probably not even 1/10th the actual tempo )

In the time that it'll take me to bring the concerto to performance level, I can probably learn to performance level a large work like a late Prok Sonata/Chopin/Liszt Sonata, 2-3 smaller romantic works like the Chopin Ballades/Scherzos, 2 or 3 Beethoven Sonatas (not including the op. 106), and probably 8+ etudes depending on their difficulties.

There's just something about working on pieces for collaboration.  When I learn works I have to learn it thoroughly enough to salvage slip ups.  Salvaging a slip up when performing with an orchestra is infinitely harder than salvaging a solo performance.

I think of it as practicing my scales or doing my Czerny one a day.  Kinda like taking vitamins you know what I mean?

No I don't.

I thought vitamins are taken to compensate for any nutritional deficiencies.

I thought practicing scales were a means of addressing not only the development of finger dexterity, but also rhythm, touch, fingering, and 100s of other issues dealing piano playing.

I thought Czerny was practice exclusively to develop finger dexterity.

I'm most familiar with the first, but the second movement is shorter but looks more difficult.  I haven't played any of the third so I don't know how that's going to turn out. 

I would probably start with the first movement's cadenza.

My learning style is probably very different from yours.  I'll play through an entire piece, work out all the fingerings, find any sections I have technical/musical difficulty, determine exactly what I want in terms of sound, and then develop exercises to practice sections I can't play accordingly.