Never play quiet - always project?

[hbofinger]

Here is a question for the experienced: When I took piano at a university here, the director of the department, my teacher, would not allow playing quietly. If I tried to play a quiet section he would bark: "Why are you playing quietly? A pianist projects his sound. You never play quietly! You should just play less loudly!" He was adamant about this!

I had a former Fazioli salesperson tell me that the way he was always able to convince customers was by showing the dynamic range of a Fazioli. He claimed it could be played ever so softly, more so than any other brand. I told him how I was trained, we both laughed!

But seriously, how do others on this board feel about this? My professor was rather tedious on technique, and there was no compromise on this. Recently I was practicing in a small hall on a S&S B, and got comment on "beating up the piano" (she should have seen my professor. On one of the University's S&S he banged his arms full force on the keys. "See - on a good piano, nothing breaks, they can take incredible force. So build strength in you fingers, don't play quietly. Pianissimo means less loud, not quiet!")

[j_menz]

The Prof's a fool.

[mcdiddy1]

Here is a question for the experienced: When I took piano at a university here, the director of the department, my teacher, would not allow playing quietly. If I tried to play a quiet section he would bark: "Why are you playing quietly? A pianist projects his sound. You never play quietly! You should just play less loudly!" He was adamant about this!

I had a former Fazioli salesperson tell me that the way he was always able to convince customers was by showing the dynamic range of a Fazioli. He claimed it could be played ever so softly, more so than any other brand. I told him how I was trained, we both laughed!

But seriously, how do others on this board feel about this? My professor was rather tedious on technique, and there was no compromise on this. Recently I was practicing in a small hall on a S&S B, and got comment on "beating up the piano" (she should have seen my professor. On one of the University's S&S he banged his arms full force on the keys. "See - on a good piano, nothing breaks, they can take incredible force. So build strength in you fingers, don't play quietly. Pianissimo means less loud, not quiet!")

I think there is some value in what he says. Considering the hall and how the sound bounces in the area it is certainly important to project so the people in the last rows can hear you. You just need to know which notes to project and which notes to keep super soft. When you combine these to aspects you can get a singing melody line with a softer accompaniment that produces and overall quiet effect. Some teachers just do not word what they intend very well. I doubt he literally want you to play everything loud and banging they keys like you suggest. To get to be a professor you have to have some skill and ability even though the teaching ability and skills may diminish with age.

[keyboardclass]

The Prof's a fool.

+1

[mhoffman89]

I think what he may mean is that it may have been too quiet? But I wasn't there so I'm not sure. But I have come across students that play with their sound almost inward instead of projecting outwards. But there are points where your professor could be wrong. You have to be able to adjust to where you're playing. I mean you can't do a house concert and expect to play like you're in a large hall. The walls are too close and the music will end up too harsh on the listeners.

[hbofinger]

He was very stubborn about this. He did not care if his lessons were in a small university room with two S&S A pianos, or in his basement apartment with his B. It was always the same mantra.

But there were other issues too. He used to say you need to practice each hand separately with metronome slowly four times or so for each time hands playing together, and you need to play a piece of music slowly with metronome several times for each time playing it fast. Now do the math how long it would take to master a piano concerto or any longer piece with that methodology. You need these tools in you bag of practice techniques, that is clear. But overdoing it with the metronome or hands separately is according to some of my friends (including a performing pianist who is adjunct in Hamburg, Germany) purely nuts and not advisable.

So I have tried to shed some of the more dogmatic tendencies of my old teacher and tried to find my own practice techniques. Your best teacher, in the end, still has to be yourself.

[mhoffman89]

Okay.. it's good you've tried to shed some of that. He overdoes it. Metronome practice and separate hand practice is good, but not as much as he's saying. Learning music like that has the danger of completely destroying someone's love for music, and could ruin your sense of musicality.

[hbofinger]

Okay.. it's good you've tried to shed some of that. He overdoes it. Metronome practice and separate hand practice is good, but not as much as he's saying. Learning music like that has the danger of completely destroying someone's love for music, and could ruin your sense of musicality.

I have an old German multi-volume music dictionary. I looked up the entry for metronome, and this respected old publication states it should really be considered as a method for measuring speed/time, but NOT something to practice along with, since it "ruins musicality" (just as you said above!). My concert pianist friend told me to "throw the thing out!".

I haven't. I use it occasionally to check a passage or something rhythmic. Seeing that entry in the dictionary, though, and  hearing my friend's advice, were the beginnings of shedding the overly pedantic traits of my training.

Back to the piano and the Agitato in FC's Ballade No. 2....

[iansinclair]

There may be another factor here -- although if it is what I am supposing, it was perhaps not as well expressed as it might be: it is necessary to play for the audience or the space; in other words to project.  Mentally.  This doesn't necessarily mean loud, and I find it difficult to explain for an instrument -- but for voice, it has been described as singing while imaging in your mind the back row of the house.

Clear as mud.  Sorry.  I know what I mean, but I don't think I'm expressing it...

[hbofinger]

There may be another factor here -- although if it is what I am supposing, it was perhaps not as well expressed as it might be: it is necessary to play for the audience or the space; in other words to project.  Mentally.  This doesn't necessarily mean loud, and I find it difficult to explain for an instrument -- but for voice, it has been described as singing while imaging in your mind the back row of the house.

Clear as mud.  Sorry.  I know what I mean, but I don't think I'm expressing it...

You expressed it well. That is why "finger strength" is important. It is just that he went too far.

[marik1]

He used to say you need to practice each hand separately with metronome...

...which by itself is already extremely suspicious. Indeed, if there is the best way to kill any sense of musicality then practicing with metronome would be the best.

The sound projection has nothing to do with quantity (i.e. "loudness"), but rather is a matter of quality, which depends on many acoustical, musical, stylistic, performer's individuality, voicing, hall, particular instrument, and other factors. Some pianists can play extreme pianisissimos, while every note would penetrate into every farthest corner of the hall...

Best, M

[pts1]

The sound projection has nothing to do with quantity (i.e. "loudness"), but rather is a matter of quality, which depends on many acoustical, musical, stylistic, performer's individuality, voicing, hall, particular instrument, and other factors. Some pianists can play extreme pianisissimos, while every note would penetrate into every farthest corner of the hall...

Some of this is certainly true, but a good deal of it is snobby nonsense.

The only element the pianist has control over in sound production is the speed of the hammer into the string. This has been proven to a scientific certainty a number of times. If one understands how a grand piano's action works, then he/she will realize that the player has a split second of oppotunity to play any single note. Other than keeping the damper(s) off the string(s) allowing the string to continue vibrating after being struck by the hammer, the pianist has no other options to effect the sound. This is really just common sense if one can manage to think about it.

If you took 9 world class pianists and one beginner and instructed them to each play middle C once gently  (one at a time behind a screen so you couldn't know who was playing) you would not be able to tell the amateur from the professionals. Nor could you say who had the most "rounded" or "supple" or "profundly musical" touch influenced by the "Russian School" or "French School" or the noble heritage of the Lisztian Transcendentalists. (if the same were done with a violin, you could eliminate the beginning violinist easily, and very possibly identify some of the professionals as well as legitimately discuss tonal differences.)

With the piano, expressive arm movements, ecstatic heavenward glances, and other drama best reserved for stage actors have no effect whatsoever on the sound.

But people such as yourself don't necessarily realize this and prefer a more mystical interpretation of piano sound, including but not limited to the gender of the pianist, what they're wearing, hair style, reputation, nationality, etc.

You might wish to stick with Lang Lang and Liberace.

[marik1]

With the piano, expressive arm movements, ecstatic heavenward glances, and other drama best reserved for stage actors have no effect whatsoever on the sound.

But people such as yourself don't necessarily realize this and prefer a more mystical interpretation of piano sound, including but not limited to the gender of the pianist, what they're wearing, hair style, reputation, nationality, etc.

You might wish to stick with Lang Lang and Liberace.

Dear PTS1,

I'd greatly appreciate if you could explain what all that rubbish has to do with my message and what makes you feel you know what I do not realize and what I prefer?

Moreover, just out of curiosity, which part of my message has suggested you taking the liberty to advise me with whom I wish to stick?

Thanks, M

[drpiano]

PTS1, I actually think that your primary point is complementary to Marik's (though, it should be noted Marik was referring to projection, not tone).
For the sake of argument, let's accept your premise that individual pianists cannot produce an individual "tone" or "sound" on a piano, when comparing the playing of a single note. I think this is a good starting point. Though I am not familiar enough with the science or counterarguments to commit to this point, by comparing to the situation with other instruments, as you do in your post, I have always thought that the potential for drawing a different "tone" from a single note on a piano is negligible at best and the debate is, to my mind, academic. However, I also think it is clear that when different pianists play an actual piece on the same piano, the pianists can make the piano sound differently, and these differences can be significant and obvious.

If the pianist has no control over the sound of each note they are playing, aside from loudness, then to what do we attribute the differences? I would say that there are a number of contributing factors. Things like voicing: playing one voice quite loudly and all others quite softly can give the illusion of a "thin" tone", for example. In addition, a pianist who adjusts tempo, spaces between notes, type of articulation, pedalling etc. to suit the acoustics of the hall (size, amount of resonance, etc.) can sound like they have a clearer tone, or a richer tone than a colleague who does not so adjust. A pianist who has a good understanding of the strengths and limitations of the individual piano can sound better than the pianist who doesn't (if the piano sounds coarse when played too loudly, then scaling back all the dynamics proporionately in order to avoid playing at that volume can make a pianist sound like they have a more pleasant tone than their colleague). This is leaving aside the very dubious comparisons of pianists using different instruments, of course. Similarly, playing in a way that is unstylistic to the piece at hand, so to speak, can impact a pianist's tone: failing to taper the dynamics of a phrase where called for can make a pianist sound "harsh", for example. I could go on but this is already too long.

The point, simply, is that one can accept the basic premise that tone is not variable and still believe that pianists can "sound" very different from one another without resorting to mysticism, or wishful thinking. The concept and perception of sound quality is a complicated matter, and I don't think it follows that inability to vary a single note leads to the conclusion that the same piano will always have the same "sound", regardless of who is playing or how they are playing it. I have no idea whether or not Marik accepts your premise, but it seems to me that his post sets out a bunch of practical observations on the factors that contribute to sound quality on the piano (which is what I have tried to illustrate).  Unless I am missing something, I do not see in his post any reference to national "schools" of piano playing, arm movements, reputation, clothing etc.

[werq34ac]

It's possible to whisper without being unheard.

[bdf2d]

I think I got your teacher's means. For example: when you play in a big hall, you need to let anyone hear the softest sound,  It's means deeply slowly touch keyborads, using your fingers to supports the sounds,  spreading softest sound to every corner of the hall.

[pianovlad1996]

But there were other issues too. He used to say you need to practice each hand separately with metronome slowly four times or so for each time hands playing together, and you need to play a piece of music slowly with metronome several times for each time playing it fast. Now do the math how long it would take to master a piano concerto or any longer piece with that methodology.

This is not a bad advice. A pianist should practice at least 5 hours a day to maintain a good technical balance so you need to practice using his methodology. This is the same methodology imposed by my teacher.

[j_menz]

This is not a bad advice.

Yes it is. It's pedantic drivel with no basis in reality, likely to make you hate playing and destined to make your performance as unmusical as possible.

[pts1]

The point, simply, is that one can accept the basic premise that tone is not variable and still believe that pianists can "sound" very different from one another without resorting to mysticism, or wishful thinking.

I agree completely.

But many do confuse elements that have nothing whatsoever to do with a pianist's "sound" as contributing to that sound, not the least of which is their bias.

But Marik said that "sound projection has nothing to do with quantity (i.e. "loudness"), but rather is a matter of quality" which is simply wrong.

If you define "sound projection" as an acoustic phenomenon or event that gives sound a penetrating quality, and you acknowledge that the pianist has no control over the pitch or tone quality (is it bright or mellow, etc., due to hammers, sound board, etc.) of the piano sound, then what's left to influence any single note, chord, passage or what have you?

Good voicing, for instance, will surely "project" a series of chords shaping a melody in the top notes much better than playing the same chords in a "non-voiced" manner.

But isn't this simply putting more "quantity" , ie, loudness in the top notes? (musically of course)

Wouldn't you agree that voicing is principally bringing out the "voice" or melody in the hypothetical passage by playing it louder than the "subordinate voices"?

I realize that many think the term "loudness" is vulgar and would much rather think in more esoteric or artistic terms, but I think its more important to understand how the instrument works, what the pianist can control and can't and be able to improve or teach better by understanding what's fact and what's fiction.

How many pianists or would be pianists have been injured or frustrated to the point of giving up by bad advice based on conjecture, bias and misinformation?

[marik1]

I agree completely.

But Marik said that "sound projection has nothing to do with quantity (i.e. "loudness"), but rather is a matter of quality" which is simply wrong.

I am so glad that finally there is somebody who knows exactly what is right and what is wrong  

You clearly whether did not read what I wrote, or read what you wanted to read, or else just do not have enough knowledge/experience to understand what was written.

If you define "sound projection" as an acoustic phenomenon or event that gives sound a penetrating quality, and you acknowledge that the pianist has no control over the pitch or tone quality (is it bright or mellow, etc., due to hammers, sound board, etc.) of the piano sound, then what's left to influence any single note, chord, passage or what have you?

Good voicing, for instance, will surely "project" a series of chords shaping a melody in the top notes much better than playing the same chords in a "non-voiced" manner.

But isn't this simply putting more "quantity" , ie, loudness in the top notes? (musically of course)

Wouldn't you agree that voicing is principally bringing out the "voice" or melody in the hypothetical passage by playing it louder than the "subordinate voices"?

I realize that many think the term "loudness" is vulgar and would much rather think in more esoteric or artistic terms, but I think its more important to understand how the instrument works, what the pianist can control and can't and be able to improve or teach better by understanding what's fact and what's fiction.

For me the performance and teaching piano has very little to do with "mystery", or "fiction". It is all about science and craft, with very complex fusion of thousands different elements. I am not going to reduce it to silly "softer--louder", or waste my time arguing on that level.

Best, M

[pts1]

.

[marik1]

Are you dim witted?

You said, " ... sound projection has nothing to do with loudness."

Your way of quotation is pretty amusing. Try again.

Any acoustical engineer would affirm that the loudness (softness, volume, etc.) absolutely DOES have something to do with projection.

Mmmm, would you like to talk about acoustical engineering?--what do you want to know about it?

Looks to me like you put your foot in your substantial mouth and rather than admit you're wrong, you attempt to press on with weak sarcasm in an effort to deflect from your own mistake.
I assume your brand of science and craft is the one that eschews loudness as an element of sound projection... assuming "sound projection" is part of the "very complex fusion of thousands different elements".

THOUSANDS?

Ohhhhh.... that's impressive. Wow, this must be like a "sound helix" -- a veritable DNA of Pianism!

So, name ...say.... a thousand for us....

No?

How about 500 so we can understand how you are able to assimilate this "very complex fusion of thousands of elements."  

I know your aren't going to waste your time arguing on a "silly softer--louder" level, so let's raise the bar!

Tell us mere mortals about say.... 250 of these very complex sound elements which project a performance sans loudness.

How about just 100, Marik.

You're the one "talking the talk"

Now, "walk the walk"!

Marik

hello, Marik

Anyone home...

ding dong.... anyone?  

Once I had a signature stating: "Never argue with boors and idiots--they drag you to their own level and then beat with experience".

I will follow my own advice.

Best, M

[pts1]

,

[marik1]

Hey PTS1,

Where are you located? If in Europe then this Summer I will be playing recitals in Switzerland, in Germany, and then in Italy at the faculty gala of the International Music Festival where I will be teaching--come for that concert--if not for myself, at least for some rather big (and some legendary) names there.

Let me know if you can attend any of those and I will leave you complementary tickets... just out of respect to our friendship  

As far as "snob and dilettante" concerned, AFAICT, so far only you have noted this, but I am secure enough not to care much about it.

And no, I am not going to support or give any additional evidence, as I wrote everything I wanted--it is not my fault you just cannot read it. If you had any questions you were welcome to ask... nicely. Otherwise, sorry, I don't have time for your silly allegations, vulgar sarcasm, and bad manners.

Ciao, M

[pianowolfi]

Well at least I am very much looking forward to my lessons with Marik in the summer, I am sure I will learn a lot I can't wait  .

 

[marik1]

Same here--that's gonna be a lot of fun!

Best, M

[ajspiano]

Well at least I am very much looking forward to my lessons with Marik in the summer, I am sure I will learn a lot I can't wait  .

 

#supreme_jealousy 

[m1469]

Well at least I am very much looking forward to my lessons with Marik in the summer, I am sure I will learn a lot I can't wait  .

Same here--that's gonna be a lot of fun!

Best, M

Yeah, and don't forget that also I am going, and that will maybe be pretty fun, too  . But also, besides playing the piano, I will sing with a big fat voice in front of both of you, and that might be a little embarrassing  .  

(Plus, I am wearing a dress right now, which is pretty cool in its own way).

[ajspiano]

Yeah, and don't forget that also I am going, and that will maybe be pretty fun, too  . But also, besides playing the piano, I will sing with a big fat voice in front of both of you, and that might be a little embarrassing  .  

(Plus, I am wearing a dress right now, which is pretty cool in its own way).

I wish I had the freedom to go to Europe for an international music festival :/

...in a few more years.

[werq34ac]

Okay.. reading the argument and somewhat resolution going around me...

pts1 is right in that we really control with our fingers is the speed at which the hammer hits the string. On the other hand, pedaling can make a huge difference in how the hammer hits the string. Pedal opens up a lot of different possibilities for sound.

Though I don't think this is what marik was focusing on. pts1's premise on a single note is correct, but playing the piano isn't just playing one note. It's playing a series of them, sometimes at the same time. In the end, I suppose, it's all just the speed of the hammer on one note relative to the speed of the hammer on the next, but it's what we as pianists do with the each note relative to the preceding notes and the notes after where piano has room  for "mysticism" and "magic" (did you say magic? I remember you said fiction, but that's a bad word to use here).

All in all, I wouldn't say that quality has nothing to do with quantity, but it really can't be simplified down to the speed of the hammer.


Finishing off with a chemistry allusion, the probabilities of a single electron in an atom with one electron is calculable by hand. However, once you have another electron in the same atom, you need a computer to do the computations. Even with modern super computers, chemists can't calculate anything past 8 electrons, and even that (with the super computers) takes months. If we think of each note as a single electron, then sure, we can calculate the qualities of the note and the possibilities of pitch, intensity, etc. However, once you have two notes, the possibilities increase exponentially. 3 notes and it's exponents of exponents.

[ajspiano]

With the piano, expressive arm movements, ecstatic heavenward glances, and other drama best reserved for stage actors have no effect whatsoever on the sound.

Not to argue for an excess of this, but while they may have no effect on the sound from each individual key struck, they may have a significant impact upon the ease at which the individual performer executes a series of sounds within a passage to whatever musical end.

And - since music has a physical effect on people (it makes them want to move) - I really think that the "must look serious" school should get over it. If moving, or expressing emotion in any other way (such as facial expression), doesnt negatively impact the sound of the performance or how comfortably the performer can play the notes it is absolutely not a problem.

Isn't it a little unreasonable to suggest that a performer shouldn't express the way the music makes them feel in whatever way they see fit - they hardly owe the audience a lack of expression.

[hbofinger]

I think I got your teacher's means. For example: when you play in a big hall, you need to let anyone hear the softest sound,  It's means deeply slowly touch keyborads, using your fingers to supports the sounds,  spreading softest sound to every corner of the hall.

I think that is a levelheaded assessment. But it does not adjust for the room per se. He is training his pupils for the concert hall alone. I was playing for a music director for a museum at a local intellectual gathering point, and he asked my why I sounded so loud! My "projection" of the sound offended him, and I was doing exactly what I had been taught to so.

But yes, finger support was a big topic and issue, and I am in no way giving up building up this aspect. My current piano has a heavier action - I chose it on purpose. It's just harder to play it softly (worn knuckles are part of the issue....)

[werq34ac]

Not to argue for an excess of this, but while they may have no effect on the sound from each individual key struck, they may have a significant impact upon the ease at which the individual performer executes a series of sounds within a passage to whatever musical end.

And - since music has a physical effect on people (it makes them want to move) - I really think that the "must look serious" school should get over it. If moving, or expressing emotion in any other way (such as facial expression), doesnt negatively impact the sound of the performance or how comfortably the performer can play the notes it is absolutely not a problem.

Isn't it a little unreasonable to suggest that a performer shouldn't express the way the music makes them feel in whatever way they see fit - they hardly owe the audience a lack of expression.

I always thought of the gestures more of a psychological thing. You feel the music, and instinctively you play how you feel. You feel the passage tenderly, so you play tenderly.

But yeah I would agree that sometimes gestures make it easier to get a musical idea. On the other hand, we don't want to exaggerate too much otherwise it actually interferes with control of sound.

I mean, the issue with Lang Lang was (it's gotten better now) that his gestures and faces weren't for the music itself, but for theatricality.

[marik1]

(Plus, I am wearing a dress right now, which is pretty cool in its own way).

Ah, what a perfect excuse to get a new cool dress: "Dear, after all I am going to Italy to perform in a 14th century castle concert hall!"
I am sure it is spectacular and will perfectly complement the place!

Best, M  

[pianowolfi]

Yeah, and don't forget that also I am going, and that will maybe be pretty fun, too  . But also, besides playing the piano, I will sing with a big fat voice in front of both of you, and that might be a little embarrassing  .  

(Plus, I am wearing a dress right now, which is pretty cool in its own way).

Yes that will be legendary, I love earth devouring voices 

[m1469]

Ah, what a perfect excuse to get a new cool dress: "Dear, after all I am going to Italy to perform in a 14th century castle concert hall!"
I am sure it is spectacular and will perfectly complement the place!

Best, M  

... I can certainly imagine it, but I seem to struggle with matching my bank account to my imaginations ... anybody got a technique for that?    Maybe there is a Queen somewhere who would be happy to loan me (or just give me) lots of her wardrobe (including jewels, of course).  Anybody? hmmm ...

Yes that will be legendary, I love earth devouring voices  

... even though you have seen/heard videos, it seems it will all feel differently in person.  I'm a little shy about it, but it will be super fun, I think .  Yip!

[pianowolfi]

... even though you have seen/heard videos, it seems it will all feel differently in person.  I'm a little shy about it, but it will be super fun, I think .  Yip!

Yes I'm convinced it will be super fun