Chopin 10/1 - polishing project?

[jerrys88]

This is a cool point. I initially was pulling my hand out as I felt so tangled up in the black keys, but then I ended up feeling like I was violently going in-out of the keys at an unmanagable speed as the tempo increased, now I stay in the keys, but had to adjust my technique significantly to make it work - feels much better now at the high tempos.

Not that I have this conquered yet, AJ, but I find it helpful to practice a combination of single notes and blocking, as in Paul Barton's videos:

5  4/2  1       5   4/2  1        5   3/2  1      5   3/2   1

and even


5/4/2   1    5/4/2   1     5/3/2    1    5/3/2   1

[ajspiano]

Not that I have this conquered yet, AJ, but I find it helpful to practice a combination of single notes and blocking, as in Paul Barton's videos:

5  4/2  1       5   4/2  1        5   3/2  1      5   3/2   1

and even


5/4/2   1    5/4/2   1     5/3/2    1    5/3/2   1

Have you seen this?..

cortot edition - I've been through all his exercises at one time or another,and variations of my own.. but never consistently over a period (probably should do that..)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/14182617/Cortot-Chopin-Etudes-Op10Students-Edition

[jerrys88]

Have you seen this?..

cortot edition - I've been through all his exercises at one time or another,and variations of my own.. but never consistently over a period (probably should do that..)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/14182617/Cortot-Chopin-Etudes-Op10Students-Edition

Thanks for bringing this up, AJ. I've owned Cortot's study guide for a long time. I'm afraid I put off following his practice techniques because of his emphasis on blocking. I knew I needed to work on my sorely lacking finger power and independence first (one cannot play this etude without a powerful 4th finger, and when I started working on this etude I discovered that ALL my fingers were lacking). Since I've done substantial work on that I'm finding that blocking is helping me move to the next level now, so now that you've reminded me I'm definitely going to add Cortot's practice schemes to my routine.

[ajspiano]

So a few nights ago I was playing around with the direct recording facility in pianoteq. Turns out I can speed up or slow down the midi playback. So naturally I sped it up and had a chuckle at the sound of the étude at 300 or so bpm. Then more seriously, I slowed my 160bpm performance down to around 80 bpm - really interesting.

The high tempo is deceptive. While I'd never have said it was perfect I couldn't possibly have been mentally prepared for the charade of unevenness in my RH, particularly in the 4-5 transitions. Extremely uneven. An interesting discovery that would not have happened without access to a DP, and further, because it's not as if I didnt already involve practice on this at a slower tempo maitaining even playing.

Anyway, I watched back a few different videos of my playing and I feel like the ones post this discovery (and attempted resolution) have a much greater clarity note to note, as opposed to a mesh of sound in the older ones

This is really cool because even though I can play the piece, for a long time I've been listening to pollinis version in a kind of shock/awe state trying to figure out why his is so well defined note to note. Now atleast I feel like I'll get to that point across all bars with more time and adequate work.

AJ.

[p2u_]

The high tempo is deceptive.

Yes, it is. Although the process as you've shown it here in this thread has some interest for outsiders, I still feel you do yourself a disservice by "trying it" fast more often than is good for you. Trust nature, trust yourself and trust marik1, who gave you excellent instructions. He also added later: "Just don't make the mistake of practicing it fast" or something of that nature. Remember? This etude requires long, slow and meticulous work with several periods in your life without touching it at all. It's not a coincidence that some of the great pianists never recorded it.

Paul

[ajspiano]

I still feel you do yourself a disservice by "trying it" fast more often than is good for you. Trust nature, trust yourself and trust marik1, who gave you excellent instructions. He also added later: "Just don't make the mistake of practicing it fast" or something of that nature. Remember?

Paul

Yes I remember - I'm pretty cautious of practicing the wrong thing slowly here, I'm actually finally starting to feel that slow practice is worth while because I can tell that I'm practicing a good movement pattern at any tempo. Before hand, when I said something like "playing below tempo x seems damaging" I could plainly feel that I was reverting to insufficient motion at the slower tempo. The result of doing this was that I ended up with increased tension at the higher speeds.

Obviously your point is valid - though I don't think the content of the thread is really that indicative of exactly what I've practiced and for how long, rather it contains sporadic insights that occurred after extended deliberation at multiple tempos. There's no way I have been "trying it" fast more than is good for me, well, maybe thats possible, but its certainly an attempt at an adequate balance rather than just wanting to play fast.

[ajspiano]

Isn't this thread just a barrage of minor adjustments and discoveries - last night I was tackling one of my overall problems, that my RH is generally less even and more likely to fatigue on the descending arpeggios than on the ascending.

To resolve I experimented with adjustments to the degree of suppination/rotation and variation there of through each octave pattern.

Conclusion - on the decent, I was overall mildly suppinated and it was placing stress on the transitions between fingers 3, 4 and 5. I added slightly more pronation to the pattern over each octave arpeggio and found it released me from a bit of stress that I apparently have (and was less aware of earlier in the piece's development) around finger 4/5. This made a BIG difference around bars 30-32, and a little bit of difference in most other situations. Also focused a bit on making sure my 5th finger is relaxed once it comes of a key, rather than stretch out to where it just played as this impacts the facility of the other fingers to strike and builds tension throughout the apparatus.

..bla bla bla..

Also, every now and then I feel like I manage to execute some passages the way I have been meaning too for as long as I've been trying to play the piece at all, as far as the dynamics i mean - which is somewhat gratifying. This piece is such a grind, and yet never gets boring for me.

AJ


EDIT:
On the front of frustration - I might add that everytime I make one of these "discoveries" it promptly evaporates the following day and I have to find it all over again. I guess because the adjustments are so fine and require significant focus. Perhaps also by constantly reviewing and adjusting like this I'm never really managing to settle into a set pattern and practice it over a period of days or weeks. I keep improving, but at the same time keep questioning and relearning many little elements.

Also, nothing I've said here is intended to represent any level of accurate technique, its too vague and is just a really rushed description of some kind of approximation of what I think I'm doing as I improve.

[ajspiano]

So its now a touch over 1 month since I started this thread.

I'm posting a video - I don't think its that much better than some of my previous attempts - BUT - since when I started this thread I probably took around 40-50 videos (great for not practising errors right!! ) before making one that didn't bomb out somewhere and tonight I just sat down and played it, there is definitely significant improvement.

Even more so, I'm pleased that I could do that tonight because I haven't touched the piano for several days since my parents have been staying and I've hardly had time.

Tonight's video is played around the same tempo as my first video, bit slower in places. I can feel that the problem areas are much stronger - and if you watch the little bit of my face you can see at times you'll be able to tell that I'm "getting into it" a bit - I agree it looks stupid, but I can't help it. I don't care either, I just like that I can play it without having to focus so much on hitting the right notes. It's not without slips, but its a lot closer so some of my past attempts where I've focused on really "feeling" the music when playing this quickly.

It seems to be a touch out of sync, don't know how that happened.

[p2u_]

@ ajspiano

Good attempt! Please allow me to speak in a metaphore of what you should do now.

Imagine you've been cooking a splendid dish on a traditional stove. You've used lots of fuel and at a certain moment you really want to save your resources. It's time now to put that dish into a so-called hay box (box packed with straw). The food will continue to cook even though it is not on the stove, because the heat in the pan is enough to keep the food cooking, and the box with the straw stops the heat from escaping. Remove the pan in six weeks or so and check the state of the dish.

Paul

[ajspiano]

Sounds like a fair plan for a fantastic feast. What side dish (or dishes) do you suppose I should throw together in the meantime? Or shall I just start preparing another feast for the next time I have to feed 80 guests?

[p2u_]

Sounds like a fair plan for a fantastic feast. What side dish (or dishes) do you suppose I should throw together in the meantime? Or shall I just start preparing another feast for the next time I have to feed 80 guests?

Well, you're free to decide, of course. My point is that this etude is like a capricious woman that tests your dedication; you have to tell her you love her all the time and she won't believe you anyway. At a certain point (I think you have reached that point) she will create problems for you, every day other problems, which you attempt to solve, getting further and further away from what you both really need. A temporary separation will do you both good. Most importantly, when you pick it up again (in six weeks or so), work in the "Marik1-mode" for a couple of days and then let it go. These are the words of an experienced coach, not of someone who is trying to teach you. Good luck!

Paul

[cherub_rocker1979]

Great thread.  I feel there's a lot of technical advice here that is right on the money.  I do have one question for marik1, though -- instead of doing the finger tapping could one instead practice each note of the arpeggios in 'portamento' like this lady suggests around 7:08 in this video?

RqSRg&index=5&feature=plcp

[marik1]

Great thread.  I feel there's a lot of technical advice here that is right on the money.  I do have one question for marik1, though -- instead of doing the finger tapping could one instead practice each note of the arpeggios in 'portamento' like this lady suggests around 7:08 in this video?

RqSRg&index=5&feature=plcp

What she does is in slower tempo she jumps with entire hand and then the faster it goes, the more "finger action" gets involved. IMO, this is a wrong approach as the slower tempo is just a magnifying glass to get and feel all the details even more exaggerated than in the fast tempo. What she does is she changes entire idea of those details, making different mechanisms to work.

This is besides the point that IMO, that "hand jumping" is to be avoided in piano playing. Any hand movements are for purpose of whether following the fingers, or shaping the melody.

Best, M

[cherub_rocker1979]

Thank you, Marik.  I guess what I liked about the 'hand jumping' is that it somehow helped train my mind to play the correct notes right from the start of the learning process and it reinforced the feeling of each finger supporting the weight of the arm, relaxation, loose wrist, etc.

But it does make sense that to you it may seem like adding an unnecessary extra step to achieve the same end result.

[ajspiano]

I might add an update to this topic -

As Paul suggested I more or less dropped this for a time, times not up I might add but I struggle with not playing it because I like it so much

A lot of this thread contains technical bits and piece that have run through my mind without reference to music. Mostly my experience with learning this piece was that I had to go through that because early on in learning, if I relied on instinct I ended up tense in many places. Additionally focus on sound image early on led to great frustration as I just missed boatloads of notes. The accuracy took some time to develop.

Anyway, now I have accuracy and a wonderful lack of tension when playing outrageously quickly.

!! ~ I get to focus on music ~ !!

So anyway, two things I've enjoyed doing the last couple of weeks that have a significant impact on the quality of my interpretation of 10/1 without ever playing 10/1 very much at all - no more than say 5-10 minutes attention every couple of days.

1. Bach. - Guareenteed my rendition of 10/1 will be better if I play a bach invention directly preceding it. And since I've been dramatically underexposed to or under motivated by bach during my childhood I've spent the last couple of weeks playing numerous inventions, which I find fairly easy with it only taking a few practice sessions to get one going pretty well.

^ I think these are great for 10/1 for 2 main reasons - the etude demands quite a bit of mental focus on separate musical ideas, as in focus on the melodic line of the LH and the madness of the RH. And since the RH is so demanding it generally takes all the focus by nature for me. The contrapuntal and simple enough bach has allowed me to direct my practice on them toward focusing on multiple melodic lines simultaneously. This helps with given 10/1's LH some attention at the same time as its montrous RH.

Also, the bach for me atleast strongly encourages good alignment and technique - where as the chopin encourages stretching and poor alignment because you are moving so rapidly over the keyboard traversing large intervals. Guareenteed after I play bach my RH is better aligned over each note when returning to 10/1, especially the 4th/5th fingers on the accent. - marik's tapping suggestion helps with this too, but I find the inventions more musically satisfying..

2. Dumb keyboard practice

I've been playing 10/1 every so often with the DP switched off, and in time with a professional recording of my choice - I personally get mentally conflicted if I play something that doesnt match the sound of the piano that comes out because I mentally anticipate the sound already.. so this makes me match their interpretations. I won't go into detail about the results of doing this too much but it has helped several aspects of the piece. And I have a much stronger sense of what sound I'm trying to create when I return to playing it on my own with the DP on, or at a piano, and my attention to detail interpretative is increasing since I get a slight mental shock when my mental image doesn't match the professional one - hence I become more aware of exactly whats going on in their rendition. Ofcourse I do this with multiple different recordings so I don't end up sounding like one particular artist, but rather just gain ideas from various pianists.

[nyiregyhazi]

Also, the bach for me atleast strongly encourages good alignment and technique - where as the chopin encourages stretching and poor alignment because you are moving so rapidly over the keyboard traversing large intervals. Guareenteed after I play bach my RH is better aligned over each note when returning to 10/1, especially the 4th/5th fingers on the accent. - marik's tapping suggestion helps with this too, but I find the inventions more musically satisfying..

One thought on this- it relates to a point I made in the thread about op. 10 no. 10. Have you tried exaggerating the sense of getting behind the 5th in slow work and rocking the hand not towards the fifth finger but towards the thumb? For years, I slumped my hand to the side- which encourages a lifeless 5th with little movement. At present, I'm doing much of my practise getting right over the the top of a near vertical 5th finger (often pausing on each 5th) which is in a perfect plane to the key. From here, the 5th has no choice but activate itself properly (especially if you feel the wrist drifting lightly up, rather than pressing through the finger). I go as far to as to let the thumb be dragged right back off the keys- to get a really clear sense of balancing on top of the 5th.

With this kind of work, when I "let go" the fifth always works way better- even if I allow the more normal kind of rotation towards the fifth. I think the big problem with this etude is going into that kind of movement without getting the fifth warmed up enough to work well from any position. Basically, the more you practise direct movement in the line of the key, the more the finger is equipped to get by in the less aligned positions that will likely arise on the way at greater speeds. I think it also serves to make these less aligned positions closer to a normal position- ie still flattish, but not truly collapsed. I suspect that this is the secret to Lisitsa's technique. She gets into positions that few pianists could get by from without straining, but I feel sure that she must have developed powerful actions in more direct lines, in order to play effectively in such positions.

[ajspiano]

N.

I did read what you had written in johnmar's thread. I had a fiddle with it, perhaps not long enough? I agree about the importance of getting the hand/arm over the 5th finger, and properly articulating the finger rather than slumping it into the keys with a somewhat dragging rotation to the right. Rotating the opposite direction certainly forces that, but it seems very counter productive as far as practicing what the arm will ultimately be doing.

I can play the whole thing (save one or two spots) confortably at 176-184 now and while that doesn't make me a technical expert overall I certainly do rotate right onto the 5th finger here. Doing the opposite has a pretty negative impact on the tempo and ccomfort of the piece.

At least for me the issue seems to stem from a tendency to do mental groups of CGCE rather than GCEC. The stretch between the first 2 notes of any given 1 beat pattern is generally the big one. Thy stretch out from fingers 1 to 2 seems to be the trigger for on going poor aligment - if one gets the hand and arm across properly on that interval the rest is generally ok on it's own.

I've been doing a kind of exercise for getting that right lately which has helped alot with makin the piece feel like it really should go at such a blistering pace, rather than just remain comfortable around 150-160.

For the accent
    >.         >.
GCEC // GCEC

And the decent-
  >  .      >  .
CECG // CECG

The accent is an arm motion, but not quite as though the arm is the playing motion, it has to do with phrase shaping, the pulse of the music causing the slight down up up up up down up up up kind of feel where the forearm just floats over the keys and dips slightly on the beat.

My practice on 10/1 presently consists of 1-2 slow run-throughs in this fashion as well as some sectional work on dynamics at full tempo. I'm enjoying the impact it has on my ability to bring out and control the RH accents, almost as though they are a separate voice within the work. Particularly awesome in the decending suspended chord pattern bars ala BECF AECF etc.

^disclaimer - 99% of viewers will likely misinterpret that arm motion stuff so if anyone tries this and it doesn't help within a few goes just scrap it.

..would also say that the rotation to the right on the 5th serves the purpose of carrying the arm over to the note and reducing the amount of motion required by the 5th finger, not to replace the action of the finger and  to play the note with a rotation and a limp or stiff finger.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I'm not speaking about having any willful intentions of this kind in the final product-but rather balancing out a common one-sided view that can become limiting. In the final product, I'm not altogether convinced about willfully rotating in either direction, but prefer the idea of experiencing it from both points of view- and ultimately letting the instincts find the right balance. In my opinion, most struggles to get to the thumb are caused by inadequate quality of connection between the arm and the 5th. There's no better way to work on this than getting right over the top of the 5th and then overholding it while the thumb plays. I often practise stopping completely on these two-striving for completely extended thumb and 5th, with minimal downward pressure. When you just 'let go' again, the hand is less inclined to sag down so much. It will go flatter- but the hand is inclined to remember leaving that bit more space under the knuckles, and genuinely moving the fifth. There is space to glide sideways and get the thumb in without ulnar deviation to snap out of. The hand is equally aligned to 1 and 5 here, without any real sense of being "closed up" or contorted to get to 1.

I see where you're coming from on the arm exercise- but I think it's very important to counter any arm pressure with equal finger movement. For some this is instinctive, but for myself I need to use the above exercises to have any chance of avoiding a sense of being bogged down in a stiff position, if I think of the arm generating accents. The above exercise provides a way to ensure that there is adequate finger movement being trained for an arm based view to be effective- without simply bearing down through a collapsing or stiff finger.

PS I can't held in but feel that the ulnar deviation could be an issue, for getting from 1 to 2? When you get a little more over the top of 5,merely playing the thumb eases the 2nd across with minimal sense of significant adjustment to be made. I'd consider looking at it from both angles, before going firmly in one direction. It's quite liberating to experience being right over the top of 1 and 5 together, in slow work. Somehow two gets there easier, after feeling the relationship to this position, but then letting go again.

[ajspiano]

Interesting to read. Not something I want to be over thinking at the moment as I don't have any real troubles now (post bach and a few weeks off) - my slower exercise work was founded in thought of dynamic shaping and fixing any deviation between the thumb and second fingers. It kind of just happened to work on alignment for the 5th too.

I understand where you're coming from re arm accent - and thats why i put that "disclaimer" line - its pretty easy to screw that up and create a real drag in the motion without a watching experienced eye i think. I know exactly what I intend to do, but I don't think it comes across well in words.

Will also add - Early on, as in first few weeks or learning I did a lot of something kind of similar to what you are talking about here and it was enormously helpful, though I would perhaps have described it completely differently

I did a kind of blocked practice (like cortot's stuff, though some of his I don't like at all in heinsight) like this GC 24, CE 15, GC 24, CE 15 - as chords. It gives good alignment over the 5th, and practicing the open/close kind of motion with the hand..  as in, higher wrist with open hand for GC with 24, lower wrist with closed hand CE  with 15.

<edit>
I might add to that - kind of natural but who knows, maybe people wouldnt do this. There is a more into the keys hand position of the 1/5 and a more out position on the 2/4 -this combined with the higher and lower wrist positions (controlled by the forearm) creates a kind of in/out-up/down circular pattern - especially once the notes are back as individual key strokes rather than blocked chords.

This helps the freedom of the piece significantly - but also, over doing it can be just as problematic as failing to do it.
</edit>

^certainly not something that is the be all and end all of developing this skill, but it was a good initial way to find the right 'shape' (still in need of refinement of course) for the forearms motion - since without it there is a very rigid and low tempo execution.

re the ulnar deviation... Yes.....when its done 'right' (supposedly) there is a sense of the thumb being kind of loose after the strike and the hand and arm kind of glide over to play finger 2.. as opposed to the deviation which is what creates the stretch over the whole thing beyond just the 1-2 transition. Incidently, thats my beef with cortot - there is a few of his exercises that are just MADE to foster ulnar deviation if you don't have someone standing over you telling you what a mess you are making.

[j_menz]

1. Bach.

Ah, at last you've seen the light.  

[ajspiano]

Ah, at last you've seen the light.  

HAHAH - I never disputed the value, just the enjoyment.

[ajspiano]

Might add even further -

I feel a little as though I've been plaguing the board with my 10/1 experiences. I'd have liked to have seen other people's involvement if they are studying the piece at all. I was really hoping birba would have a crack but we haven't seen much of him at all anywhere lately.

I also know wolfi, enrique, danhule, johnmar, frankiisko, as well as a couple of people who PM'd me are all at various stages of development with this (or in enriques case, a variation of) - I'd have liked to see any of you and/or others show you're attempts and give thoughts and practice ideas regardless of where you are at with it. No pressure though of course.

[49410enrique]

Might add even further -

I feel a little as though I've been plaguing the board with my 10/1 experiences. I'd have liked to have seen other people's involvement if they are studying the piece at all. I was really hoping birba would have a crack but we haven't seen much of him at all anywhere lately.

I also know wolfi, enrique, danhule, johnmar, frankiisko, as well as a couple of people who PM'd me are all at various stages of development with this (or in enriques case, a variation of) - I'd have liked to see any of you and/or others show you're attempts and give thoughts and practice ideas regardless of where you are at with it. No pressure though of course.

great thread. deserves a bump, and apologies for the slow reply (i have been swamped and still am, with new music, old music, a crazy fall semester non-music academic course load, blah blah excuse excuse).

so im am now barely beginning to 'understand' this at a point where the true technical challenges (besides obvious ones) are beginning to make their presence known. namely for me right now is some of the fatigue/endurance issues you i believe you  mentioned(?), that is i am actively working to reduce/eliminate uneccessary tension but i am finding that on the 'repeat' (my piece has a repeat of a section with a 2nd ending finishing it), my accurracy goes downhill fast. so i will be working on some practice strategy and posting and updating viddy's as appropriate (as with etudes i tend to keep them with me until they are fullymemorized and mostly there/at my limit before i bring it in for the first piano lesson, that is i learn as much of it on my own as possible then get additional insight and help instructions from my teacher then, it's a waste to try and bring this when i am still struggling with notes or the tempo is wayy too slow relative to the performance indication)

so this is my first attempt at doing with from memory, i have some mistatkes related mainly to that and those initial 'camera' nerves which is one of the reasons i am starting to recording weekly or minimum by weekly to get used to performing 'early on'

i do these "cold"  in the morning ,that is just a little warm up then with no practice , this way what I really know and DO NOT know is very apparent, i find this as a diagnostic aid is much more reliable vs recording after practicing as then it is hard to distinguish what is solidly learned vs what is still 'fresh' and familiar from rehearsal. i tend to do 1 or 2 takes only (ie if the crash and burn is severe enough then i might try a second time, if 2nd fails completely, i just scrap it and try again the following week and just focus on practicing it)

[49410enrique]

If someone can please help me with the translations, that would be super!

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=post;msg=522174;topic=48029.0;sesc=


EDIT- it's been handled my Japanese friend got back to me super quick with full translations.

[caioramos]

Hey ajs!! long time no see! I've been away from the forum quite a while..

Good job on the Etude, amazing touch, I like your technique!
Hope you can record sometime on a real piano, like the kawaii grand if you have an opportunity!

Keep up the good work

Caio