Chopin 10/1 - polishing project?

[ajspiano]

So here we are, almost at 12 weeks into proper work on this piece. I'm posting this here as this is obviously not finished and ready for the audition room.

At this stage I'm still very aware of many things I need to do, but any and all comments are obviously welcomed.

I have many thoughts regarding the technical side of how to play this, but maybe I'll save that a little while longer. The video below shows where I'm at today. Not a lot of "music" yet I think but I'm starting to feel like I can actually play the notes, though there is obviously still a great many inaccuracies here. I can give a better performance than this, but its touch and go, if I put more focus into the "music" side of it during my playing I'm more likely to "lose it" - I still have to focus a lot on what I'm physically doing with the RH (my LH is clearly a bit lazy here and hasnt recieved any attention yet )

Tempo is close to what I'd like to achieve, averaging around 150 - my quickest accurate (semi) take is smack on 2 minutes at them moment, so I'm a touch slower here - though that's obviously not a huge concern.

^apologies for the lacking sound/video quality

...........

For the most part, I feel that this performance is pretty static as far as the dynamics of it, I havent really made what I can/should of certain sections, and melody note accents. I feel that the LH needs to have a lot of attention, so as to really feel the harmonic shifts and create a sense of each 1-2 bar unit with cresc/decresc perhaps.

The harder sections, bar 35 and there abouts are really hit and miss, they need more work as I get them about 50% of the time and the rest they fall apart, usually thats in line with how warmed up I am though - the last few days I've been giving those sections some intensive work outs and they have come a long way.

I have a good image of what I want for the section beginning bar 17 but I'm not up to executing it consistently yet   - the bars preceding the return to the original them are also clearly weaker, though that is in some way a result of reworking some technical aspects of them today.

[johnmar78]

AJ, Very flowy playing at the start....welcome to op10-1 club.

 May I ask you a question, do your hands get tired towards the end-the return of the theme as you said" becomes weaker"??

There is a pause at 1.18, was that intentional or regrouping???

[pianowolfi]

I think this is on a very good way, it flows nicely, and I have the feeling that you will master the technical difficulties relatively easily after a few more weeks.
 
I think it's time to try it on a real piano.

I often practiced this etude on my digital, and it went fast and fluid, and everything, but when I changed to the acoustic piano everything seemed to get lost, like it was an entirely different world!

[birba]

I think this is on a very good way, it flows nicely, and I have the feeling that you will master the technical difficulties relatively easily after a few more weeks.
 
I think it's time to try it on a real piano.

I often practiced this etude on my digital, and it went fast and fluid, and everything, but when I changed to the acoustic piano everything seemed to get lost, like it was an entirely different world!

You took the words right out of my mouth...
An etude like this has to be practised on a "real" piano.  The strength and dynamic articulation of each and every finger cannot be measured on a digital piano.

[birba]

I'm very tempted to partake in this project as well.  I've been battling with it off and on since 1968...and always lost...

[ajspiano]

I play it on a real piano regularly (2-3 times a week) I just don't have one at my home where I recorded this. 2 weeks ago infact I spent 6 days at my parents house playing it on an old upright with an horribly heavy action, approx double that of a standard concert grand. Other pianos I've played it on include a yamaha upright at the library, a big beautiful kawaii grand, and a whole string of different uprights at the music store in the city.

 I agree that the real piano is a very necessary step, but I've already worked my ass off to ensure I can play it on real pianos. It's a very precise movement I've got going there to ensure I maximize speed fluency and power with an absolute minimum effort, though it's obviously still not perfect in places. I gladly admit the first time I tried it on a real piano it was a severe failure - I plan to record on a real one for the audition room when I get there.

Johnmar, I'd have to check, but if it's what I'm thinking of it's deliberate. I don't get tired at all now (lots of thought about movement to achieve that) it's just weak as in it's inaccurate when I go faster. I think it's because initial learning the opening 8 bars were worked on until I could play them well, which took several weeks. Then I learnt the rest, so the start has had more time to settle in - I just need to properly dedicate my self to the weaker spots.

Would love to have you along Birba - it's certainly a real challenge this one.

[nyiregyhazi]

Firstly, lots of great stuff there. The thing I'd suggest is that you're getting caught in slight forward pressures and slight reaching movements from the wrist (that put it out of alignment). Although it's only very slight, I suspect that these traces might be a big issue in filling the small holes in the execution. I've had a much more exaggerated version of the same issues myself and have recently been doing a lot of work on learning to keep the wrist completely aligned- rather than allowing slight forward pressures to allow it go crooked. Have you tried very practising very slow and looking out for spots where the wrist is bunching up marginally forwards? If you try just the slightest sense of pulling back from the shoulder at all times (to reveal and pull out any kinks in the wrist) I suspect it might be beneficial. Also, I'd perhaps try to think of the elbow as leading the movement (strictly speaking it's the shoulder that moves the elbow out, of course, but it's generally easier to judge it from the elbow). It's very slight, but I feel that you are trying to reach the big intervals by angling the hand via the wrist, to some extent- rather than fully doing it by dragging the hand around from further back. I think these relatively small alignment issues are just enough to cause the slight remaining holes in the execution. The fingers aren't always the most optimal position from which to move the keys with ease, due to kinks in the chain from elbow to finger.

I might try filming the piece myself sometime. Here's quite an old try-out, where the issues I describe in your playing are vastly more pronounced and severe.

I have it a lot better now, but I think it's still the primary issue in the study for me. As soon as things bunch up just ever so slightly forward, the fingers struggle to move with the required ease and simplicity. I've had to exaggerate much bigger arm movements to the side through each group, in order to connect well with the 5th finger and maintain a sense that the arm is in a taut line between finger and elbow (rather than bunched up and flailing around).

[costicina]

Bravo AJ, I think the Etude is already yours! The bulk of the job (and more than that) is done, you are ready to refine the interpretation/dynamics etc. side. But I bet you have a very clear idea about the way you whish it should sound.

Anyway, I'm very impressed...

[ajspiano]

Thanks costicina! - I don't entirely agree, but I'm fairly picky I think it still needs significan work to achieve 176 bpm, which I can really only manage for the first 24 bars or so, and the recurrence of the theme. If that takes a bit longer though that's ok because I think it's atleast at an acceptable performance tempo now. There are some individual notes that I think need to be clearer too, some just getting lost in the stream..

N. - agree

I agreed when reading, it was a good pick up considering the camera angle as as you said it's fairly minute. I was aware of it it to a degree, it's more pronounced at the bottom (thumb reaches forward) and top (5th reaches forward) and is unfortunately a little learnt in - I worked on it last night and it makes an obvious difference to the comfort of the passage when tempo is pushed beyond that pod the video there. I think there's a certain difficulty in this piece with such an exact movement because I find that I repeated isolate an aspect and refine it and then when I take my focus to another aspect the previous one degenerates significantly. Almost everyday now I think I've got the movement perfected an then the next day I make some small alteration that again has a large impact to the fluency and control.

I'm sure that I'm still fairly technically flawed in several places through the difficult patch, hoping that comes together over the next couple of weeks as wolfi has suggested should happen.

[ajspiano]

Marg, the problem I that if I really owned the piece I'd be more confident playing it. At the moment when I perform it in a public setting I can't seem to "just play" and feel the music, instead I'm consumed with "will I manage to get the hard part right"

EDIT:

Also, I feel a little as though i may have come across a bit dismissive of wolfi/birba regarding the real piano comments - sorry if thats the case, you're advice is very much appreciated both as solid pianists/teachers and as people who have studied the piece.

[marik1]

Hello Ajs,

I think this is an excellent start! Your hands are quite free and the motions are economical and efficient. Also, you don't do the usual mistake in this etude, i.e. playing it "loud".

I would like to give a few suggestions, if I may. I think it could be even more efficient if you keep your fingers much closer to the keys. Just feel them "super glued" to the keyboard. To illustrate, find on youtube Mei Ting Sun playing this etude--you will see that you cannot squeeze even a list of paper between the fingers and keys. This will give you much more precision, will let you move the tempo, and it will be just... much easier to play.

Also, right now you are paying very little attention to melodic line in your LH. Try to shape it, and add some creschendo towards the top in your RH--that will add much more energy and punch, and acoustically create effect of faster tempo.

Think about the grouping not in a wide, but in a narrow position. IOW, not CGCE--CGCE, but C--GCEC--GCEC. The same for the descending passages, i.e. ECG--CECG--etc.

Work on it with very light staccato--the finger goes straight into the key bed and immediately returns back right on the key surface. No grabbing the keys, no pulling--just the shortest path possible, without dissipation of energy and losing time for unnecessary movements--something what G. Gould relentlessly worked on and called "method of tapping", i.e. put completely relaxed hand on the keyboard and then "tap" the finger with your other hand--it should be very fast and light motion. After that try to emulate exactly the same feeling and touch with only one hand.

Best, M    

[starstruck5]

If you think about all are studies are a bit silly really -if you master a study all you will be able to say with any certainty is that you can play the study well -whenever you encounter arpeggios for example in a different piece -it will present different problems anyway. This particular study is actually harmful for people with small hands I think -should come with a health warning!

It is also said often that you need to master the studies if you want to play the scherzos or the ballades- but nowhere in those pieces are prolonged demands made in one particular technical area -there is usually a page or two or most -but studies go on and on relentlessly -It is much more rewarding musically I think to learn the Chopin Ballades.  I don't think you need to master the studies first.

[ajspiano]

If you think about all are studies are a bit silly really -if you master a study all you will be able to say with any certainty is that you can play the study well -whenever you encounter arpeggios for example in a different piece -it will present different problems anyway.

Couldn't agree less...

Its not that arpeggios can't produce different problems in a different context - its that the skill required to play the study is not just "arpeggios" but rather, fundamentally efficient technique in general. The skills developed here are easily applicable to figures that are not arpeggios - assuming that you do genuinely learn to play this piece at the 160-176 tempo range and you can do so in a way that leaves you without fatigue. The accuracy of the motion required takes a fair leap between 144 - 160..  176 is a different game altogether. There are all these little pieces or aspects of what has to be done, and they have to all work together in perfect unison or the tempo lags and tension builds up.

Personally I find playing it below 152 for any sustained period now to be almost damaging to the development of the piece, because I can get away with less efficient motion, and the idea of slow motion practice (same motions as fast tempo) is really hard to manage because I can not feel where certain parts are going wrong (no tension builds at the slower tempo), and I end up practicing flaws. I no longer do any slow work that is the entire piece, only smaller sections to iron out specific issues that I can seem to manage at higher tempos.


Marik -

Thanks for your comments, agree about the fingers being closer to the keys - it makes a difference. I have begun putting some focus into the LH line and will try out your suggestion for tapping. I have previously thought about the grouping a bit, though perhaps I need to give it a bit more focus.

[ajspiano]

Ok, take 2..  had a bit of a clean up. So I think this version is a little neater.

I've implemented some of what I gained from mariks tapping suggestion tonight, I can feel a difference. Hoping it will be even better over the next few days, as that aspect improves along with proper work addressing the grouping and finger height ideas.

I think also the tapping idea has helped a little with what N mentioned regarding alignment as I'm now striking the keys in a more precise position and avoiding too much forward or backward momentum, as well as fixing a few undue stretches.

Still a few slips here and there :/ - would be nice to nail a take where every note is good.

My LH still looks sloppy in the video I think, but I'm starting to think more about its melody.

I've been working on the ending a fair bit, am not satisfied yet with the execution but its a lot closer than the last version. I need to refine the accents over the chromatic shifts, if that makes any sense? give them more volume where necessary and I think there will be an element of rubato to that eventually..

Anyway..  first or second version better? I think I'm marginally better here, if only because I feel more steady playing it today after the last couple of days work, and I think that shows in the weaker sections from the first take.

version 2 -

&feature=youtu.be

[49410enrique]

your second take is nice, it looks loose, relaxed, i can hear you are guiding the swells where you want them to go , i think it has some good 'learning momentum' that is if you only keep up this pace of improvement it will most certainly get very close to where you want it soon (i say very close becuase i think we are never quite satisfied with where we eventually land with these, they can always be revisted by us later and we find new challenges to overcome and improve upon personally).

i have not 'specific' sectional recommendations since i m not actively learning this (though i am working on an arranged 'etude' of this based on another theme but set to this style of writing with lh octaves and rh fluries of notes/arpegios).

i have a wonderful left hand inversion study of this etude where the RH has the octaves and the left had does the heavy lifting/arpegio runs by carlos chavez, its super cool. i'll pm you a link from my mediafire account since i can't post it as chavez past away in 1978 so 6 more years before it's public domain.

[costicina]

What an astounding improvement! I was fascinated by your playing: so fluid, effortless, with the utmost economy/efficience of movement, elegance of phrasing: I'm deeply impressed.  Super bravo!!!!!!!

[ajspiano]

Thanks costicina - you may be too kind though with all the wrong notes. I'm happy though given the short time between postings. Frankly due do mariks words almost exclusively, good teacher = good progress. I should probably get a teacher for this material, trouble is that mariks short post will last me months testing and applying it in all my playing

I tried to make something of the cresc in the top of the RH as he suggested in that take, though it's obviously underdeveloped. When I listen to it I can hear in my head what I meant to do.

Enrique, thanks will check it out.

[ajspiano]

Some brief discussion about some technique, as discovered through experimenting with mariks tapping idea. I think I lost a bit of 'music' in gaining a bit of speed, need time to settle in, it feels much easier to me though, I look forward to applying throughout and having it settle in properly so that I can stop thinking about it while I play.

Maybe the difference is pretty subtle? .. I can tell, thats what matters right now - in a week when I'm better at it and do it musically everyone else can see why it makes a difference.

Also, this vid was a touch longer, but I cut it because I started rambling nonsense.

^I might add, in the video I say the 'key' goes down the most efficient way. Thats not strictly what I mean. Obviously the key only has 1 possible path - rather the finger goes down the exact path that the key does. So as marik said, there's no grabbing or pushing, so it minimises that force on the finger. Or in other words the only force applied my me is that which sends the key down, rather than directing any energy at all into directing the key some other way.. pretty important since the key wont go any other way right?

What i'm talking about as how it helped me improve is really just common sense - I hate it when it takes 3 months to find the common sense fix. Just watching myself now I think I may have to think about the same thing reading the ascending patterns too :/

[marik1]

2:46--Thumbs up! An excellent progress!!! Just don't make mistake and start practicing it fast...
You will see the precision will come very soon.

Best, M

[costicina]

WOW!!!!! I'm speechless....

[revanyoda777]

Ive been practicing this one on and off for a year now, and I'm just now feeling comfortable with the notes. I can't focus on an interesting interpretation yet or I'll mess it all up. I'm Just getting the technical fluidity up to par right now and its such hard work! I can't get my fingers moving that fast without at least half an hour (or more)of warming up. Is it like this for everyone else? Or can my fingers not handle it? 

[revanyoda777]

Sorry, double post

[steone]

Ive been practicing this one on and off for a year now,

I can't get my fingers moving that fast without at least half an hour (or more)of warming up. Is it like this for everyone else? Or can my fingers not handle it? 

I don't think that your fingers are the problem. Sure it's a hell of an etude (for me it's one of the hardest) but maybe the "problem" is what you said about working it "on and off"... If you really want to make improvement on it you must spend a lot of time on it and regular time... There's no secret on the work on a regular basic
What i would suggest you is to try to take a small part (like one arpeggio up&down) and visualize it in your hand, trying to see your hand perfectly hitting the keys; and then doing it on the piano .
And you say you can't focus on the interpretation yet, but i would say that maybe it's the problem. It's not because it's written "Etude" that you should think "I need to work my technique first and need to hit each key perfectly before thinking about interpreting"... Never forget that you try to play Music first

[starstruck5]

Couldn't agree less...

Its not that arpeggios can't produce different problems in a different context - its that the skill required to play the study is not just "arpeggios" but rather, fundamentally efficient technique in general. The skills developed here are easily applicable to figures that are not arpeggios - assuming that you do genuinely learn to play this piece at the 160-176 tempo range and you can do so in a way that leaves you without fatigue. The accuracy of the motion required takes a fair leap between 144 - 160..  176 is a different game altogether. There are all these little pieces or aspects of what has to be done, and they have to all work together in perfect unison or the tempo lags and tension builds up.

Personally I find playing it below 152 for any sustained period now to be almost damaging to the development of the piece, because I can get away with less efficient motion, and the idea of slow motion practice (same motions as fast tempo) is really hard to manage because I can not feel where certain parts are going wrong (no tension builds at the slower tempo), and I end up practicing flaws. I no longer do any slow work that is the entire piece, only smaller sections to iron out specific issues that I can seem to manage at higher tempos.


Marik -

Thanks for your comments, agree about the fingers being closer to the keys - it makes a difference. I have begun putting some focus into the LH line and will try out your suggestion for tapping. I have previously thought about the grouping a bit, though perhaps I need to give it a bit more focus.

I am impressed with your playing AJ very wonderful -

However, I have to disagree with your response -if the Chopin studies didn't exist people would still be able to play the Liszt Sonata for example - You see kids on Youtube who are rock guitar virtuosi -I don't think they ever practised virtuoso studies -arpeggios and scales are enough surely.

[ajspiano]

I'm not saying they are required in order to play other pieces well. I only disagree with the idea that all that is achieved is the ability to play the study well. The benefits if this study are very obviously effecting my other playing.

EDIT:
That aside, the chopin studies (and other transcendental monsters that followed) are for the most part valid pieces in their own right. I play them because I like them, not so I can play a scherzo or ballade better. - and because I like extreme challenges.

.........

To answer revanyoda777 -

No its not like that for everyone, I can play it cold with no tension or fatigue, its a product of an effcient technique not fingers that are more capable. Your fingers don't get stronger the more you play it, and one day eventually they'll be able to take the strain. You have to move them with greater precision and with great attention to playing the way that conserves the engery required, and maximises the effect of that energy on the piano, which is what the tapping is all about.

Steone is also right in saying that it requires a more dedicated approach, for me personally its taken 1-2 hours daily (no exceptions, and sometime more) for the 13 weeks of work I've put in so far, and it clearly still needs a lot of work.

[starstruck5]

I'm not saying they are required in order to play other pieces well. I only disagree with the idea that all that is achieved is the ability to play the study well. The benefits if this study are very obviously effecting my other playing.

EDIT:
That aside, the chopin studies (and other transcendental monsters that followed) are for the most part valid pieces in their own right. I play them because I like them, not so I can play a scherzo or ballade better. - and because I like extreme challenges.

.........

Maybe you are right -I am often wrong.

To answer revanyoda777 -

No its not like that for everyone, I can play it cold with no tension or fatigue, its a product of an effcient technique not fingers that are more capable. Your fingers don't get stronger the more you play it, and one day eventually they'll be able to take the strain. You have to move them with greater precision and with great attention to playing the way that conserves the engery required, and maximises the effect of that energy on the piano, which is what the tapping is all about.

Steone is also right in saying that it requires a more dedicated approach, for me personally its taken 1-2 hours daily (no exceptions, and sometime more) for the 13 weeks of work I've put in so far, and it clearly still needs a lot of work.

[ajspiano]

Some updates -

I think there is a tendency (due to the difficulty of the RH) for me to feel the piece as almost robotic crotchet units, even when playing in a more musical way. The last two days I've been playing with the idea of feeling the RH as a 'wave' where minims and whole bars are felt as a flowing sounds that accompanies the thunder in the LH. As a result the piece is starting to take more direction with a strong feel of the harmonic shifts. It makes the piece all the more enjoyable to play as the music kind of resonates through you with the constant and held (pedal) harmonies that are being felt as whole units rather than broken into RH groupings.

Tapping -
I've begun doin some more conscious work applying this idea of finding the most direct path into the keybed in Op. 10 No. 2 - which requires a great deal more precision that no. 1. Though perhaps presicion is the wrong word, it has a fairly different pattern to the C Major étude due to greater variation within a single bar, or even beat. Exact physical positions are rarely repeated. The result is a much more comfortable and speedy execution of the 10/2, though it's still very much in the early stages.

An interesting point to work on has been discovering how to adequately move in and out of the keyboard to accommodate finger length and white/black note patterns comfortably without effecting the path taken to the keybed. There is a sense of being in a final balanced supple position over a note, and stayin there while the note is played, only moving to the next note once the key has sounded. I've worked on this idea before but the tapping as a starting point has led to greatly improving my precision in this regard.

After the work on 10/2, 10/1 feels significantly less challenging in many areas, and trouble spots are becoming more even and well articulated.

Also found a slightly different arm position last night that vastly improves the comfort of the decending D Ab E Bb pattern. The middle minim chord change section before the return to the theme is getting significantly more stable also.

Will save more videos for when all this is more visually and aurally evident.

[costicina]

Your approach to the technical challenges of a piece seems the most clever/efficient I've heard of.  What you are doing is a sort of 'technical meditation' instead of a dull, mechanical practice. And it makes a dramtaic difference as your achievements demonstrate....Of course, you are advantaged by an innate 'talent' or 'facility', but I think that even a plain and not particularly talented amateur could learn a lot from you, and improve...
Please, keep on explaining to us your experiments/insights!!!!

[ajspiano]

Please, keep on explaining to us your experiments/insights!!!!

This may not ultimately be correct or best way to approach this, or even necessarily lead to the best technique, as I've only been working on it a fraction of the time that will ultimately be required..  however.. 

In 10/2, I began by looking at each of the RH on the beat chords, and found the most comfortable hand position for two successive chords. This means finding how far into the keys my hand should be, how I planned to accomodate any stretches - such as through the level of forearm suppination - and how specifically I plan on executing the chord it self from a musical perspective, which leads to things like how much arm pressure, how much finger pressure etc. - these are not really conscious calculations though, I just "feel" what works.. ultimately ensuring that I managed the "efficient path to the keybed" feel and that I could easily execute varying dynamics.

Then I addressed the three chromatic notes found between the two chords. Each note has to be comfortable (the tapping/path thing again) but also, with these single notes there is far more room to play with a comfortable feel but the hand in a different position (such as in or out of the keyboard). So the objective of the motion over the three notes was to execute a comfortable articulated note AND move my hand into as close a position as possible to the upcoming chord without sacrificing any control over the single notes. After finding the right path over a few different examples of "chord, chromatic notes chord" I was able to find paths for successive passages much faster, and then began simply feeling where I had to go, and practicing with focus on the musical elements i wished to bring out.

When I stopped working on 10/2 and moved back to 10/1 my experience was that of a realisation of many technical errors that I was able to very easily fix by 'feel' - what I suppose happened is that I had been working on 10/1 finding the perfect path into individual keys, the 10/2 forced me to also find efficient paths between keys, which was not up to scratch for some of the transitions in 10/1. The process of working through 10/2 made me far more aware of them  because failure to excecute them correctly had a more significant impact on my ability to play the piece than it did in 10/1.

[birba]

I was just curious about some fingerings.  in bars  22  30-32  35-36  47-48  do you use the traditional 1-5 sequence?  I had come up with something else that worked for me.
I think I'm going to polish this piece up, too.

[49410enrique]

I was just curious about some fingerings.  in bars  22  30-32  35-36  47-48  do you use the traditional 1-5 sequence?  I had come up with something else that worked for me.
I think I'm going to polish this piece up, too.

go for it! since you have spent time w it i the past it would be a good addition to the out w the old thread.

as for fingerings i think like in many of these it's about efficiency if you find something that allows an effortless sweep  accros the vast spance of keybaord you can keep it right? i think as you approach the top end tempos whether or not it will work will become pretty evident very quickly, i find when i learn 'fingerings' i have to keep that door open as sometimes there are thiings that work at some tempos that will absolutely wreck me when i move at a good clip later on unless i adapt and change to the new demands. lucky are we when we find that sweet spot that works all the time.

[ajspiano]

I was just curious about some fingerings.  in bars  22  30-32  35-36  47-48  do you use the traditional 1-5 sequence?  I had come up with something else that worked for me.
I think I'm going to polish this piece up, too.

Yes i'm playing with the standard fingering in all bars, except the last beat of bar 8, where it's 5212.

I experimented with alternates for the A major arp, but ended up sticking with the traditional option. Perhaps that's because it seems like too much work to alter a fingering though (rather than learn an alternative to begin with). All the bars you mentioned are trouble spots, but it's been a case of more precise arm motion to fix them up in the end (still in progress, some good work in 30-32 tonight)

[ajspiano]

Now for a dose of performance reality. - this take is pretty disappointing, but I'm posting anyway because it shows the development over time and the reality of what happens when you put yourself under more pressure.

I’ve been unable to practice for the last 2 days due to “life” (with the exception of no more than 5 minutes yesterday that wasnt really practice) and so this was a real test of how solid the piece really is. On top of that, this take is cold (no warm up, and the weather is pretty cold too today) and the piano (real one this time) is fairly unfamiliar to me – I play it for 5 minutes once a fortnight.

There was no trying for a better take here, this is in a public arena and I’m only allowed to play any one piece 1 time there on a given day. Consequently I went for a slower tempo, and spent most of the time thinking about how to adjust to the pianos action instead of feeling the music. Bummer. Some of the weaker transitions became highlighted where I’ve ‘stalled’ that wouldn’t normally happen at home. But overall I’m quite happy with this, because a few weeks ago I could not have done this without any warm up in the unfamiliar environment without more stalls.

A big part of me really wants to go back and do a second run through because I’m sure I could do way better than this, as towards the end I was starting to reach a level of being comfortable with the piano and felt like I could actual start playing with some feeling, and at a better tempo.. but I guess that will have to wait for another day.

There was a sense of not wanting to push it and screw up because I really wanted to be ok with posting the video, I think this even lead to a slight inner tension which may have been hampering my tempo.   I guess mayb next time I should just go for it and see what happens.

[m1469]

Thank you for posting this and what you've written about your experience, I'm glad you did!  It helps give me a perspective on the performance process.  Something that I feel I very much lack is a true perspective on the inner workings of the learning process for other people, especially those who I consider to be high level players.  I've spent a good deal of my life thinking that other people were pulling off pure magic acts and then me not knowing how to appropriately compare myself to that, and to digest it all in a usable and non-harmful way.  It's just really helpful for me to know that it's a process.  

[ajspiano]

especially those who I consider to be high level players.

If that was at all intended to suggest that I'm a high level player, thankyou but you may wish to reconsider - I really think I'm a small fish in a big ocean as far as that goes, at least in the classical realm anyway.

I must say that I'm rather taken by this whole "project" thing thats been going here - some have obviously been better than others, but the oppurtunity to see other peoples process is so invaluable.

.......

On a side note, a few years ago I went to a series of stand up comedy shows at a very quiet little underground bar here in Melbourne that preceded the Melbourne International Comedy Festival. The shows ran for 6 weeks before the festival and their sole purpose was to allow the comics to test material. It was not uncommon for them to come on stage with a note book, and actually stop mid performance to make some annotation regarding how to alter the delivery of a line, or what order to run certain jokes in - I know this is what they were doing because it was a very casual environment where most of the audience had the opportunity to speak with them after their slot.

On a few occasions we also then saw the same performer come back after a couple of weeks and deliver the same content in a different way - alterations to timing, exact wording, body language... (just to name a couple of the variations)

Obviously its a very different entertainment medium, but I think that we can apply this kind of "trial performing" to music in some ways. I used to do a lot of singer/songwriter performing as a guitarist and had a pretty well developed process relating to the final products than would appear at gigs..

After a song was written it then had to recorded, listened to and analysed then altered (chords, melody, timing, guitar work etc.) then rerecorded and the process repeated bit by bit till I was happy. Then I would take a collection of 3 or 4 new songs to a quiet open mic gig at the spleen bar (15-20 spectators that couldn't care less what they heard) and test them there. There was usually a few fellow songwriters around to give comment on the songs and how they flowed together. I would do this several times, gradually refining the song itself and how I wanted it to fit in with my other music before taking to an actual advertised gig that I'd tried to promote in any way.

[ajspiano]

Now its a few days since I posted my fairly abysmal attempt to wander into a public arena and lay down a master piece like david helfgott does in that bar scene in shine.

..

Thankfully, as it turned out, the slower and overly flawed performance seems to have been more about the fact that I hadnt played for a few days than it was about it being a different piano in a different place. This obviously highlights that lack of adequate preparation in the piece, but at the same time, I'd rather that than it be that my practice at home on a digital is resulting in inadequacies on a real piano.

How do I know its that way round? When I went home that night I had the same problems on my keyboard as I did on the piano.

It's long resolved now (4-5 hours of practice makes all the difference right?) and infact I feel significantly improved. I've made several more adjustments in critical bars that are starting to make it feel more efficient and 'easy' and this is visually noticeable (well I can tell) - and - I've also made some fine adjustments relating to both my arm and fingers that I think are pretty much invisible but can be felt very much by me.

One has to do with balance and positioning over the 5th finger. This made a phenominal difference, and I can now actually handle playing the more familiar bars at what to me seem like slightly staggering speeds such as 184-192bpm.    ...I'm no where near achieving this throughout the entire piece but I think its a really awesome achievement and performing short bursts like this is making the marked tempo feel far more stable and less like a tightrope walk by a blind one legged man.

The other is to do with the release of the 3rd finger at the transition between ascent and descent in bars ~42-45, essentially I was struggling to get the 4th and 5th fingers moving and there is a kind of lag every time i play these transitions. Turns out my third finger was staying held onto the key preceding this for too long, causing a pysiological barrier and I couldn't really lift or strike with the 4th at all because of this.. consequently I was feeling a little tense and uncomfortable there - now I'm not. Yay.

Till next time...
AJ.

[costicina]

AJ, your 'problem solving' approach is so intelligent and efficient....Your work at this Etude is going to be a lesson on how to learn a piece, and how to overcome its technical challenges...
Thanks a lot for sharing!!!!

[ajspiano]

So tonight I didn't really play Chopin, rather read through burgmuller op 100 - which is all ofcourse a very mild challenge compared to the étude for me - but - I think it allowed me to get pretty music focused.. At the end of my short session i did a run of 10/1 and following here is the video, which I've cut short because i lost it in the middle there around bar 30. So this is up to bar 24.

The reason I'm posting is because while this isn't at all perfect, nor is bars 16/24 how i really intend them to be at all... Watching back, this is the first time that my own interpretation had really 'grabbed' me and I've felt like I actually wanted to hear more. how exciting..  Hope someone agrees

^what an awful image YouTube picked for the cover

[ajspiano]

I wanted to add something about having played through the Burgmuller pieces last night - whether or not this matters to anyone else I don't know, but I'm just rambling all my thoughts out in this thread..

Without explaining again the stuff I wrote earlier re finding comfortable positions and such in chopin 10/2 and its application to 10/1..

Last night I applied these ideas to the burgmuller studies during my read through because I had become FAR more aware of certain places that were not entirely comfortable. A lot of these lower grade studies are of course easy enough that this stuff just doesnt matter as much to the development of a reasonable performance, you can get by without it and learn plenty. But last night I really enjoyed how much I was able to gain by applying such ideas to easier music because it fell into place quickly allowing me to focus on music and play very comfortably. Yet another one of those "you didn't know what you didn't know" realisations.

Its a contrast from the violently challenging fragments of Chopin I was working with previously

I think I'm going to take a bit of time each day to rip through some easier music that I'm unfamilar with and work on this stuff over the next little while, maybe grade 2 to 6 kind of range..  I dont know.. we'll see. Even if it ends up being of limited benefit to my ability to play harder material it will benefit my repertoire knowledge and skills regarding playing the kinds of pieces I'm usually working on with students..  will be good for sight reading too, one of my weaker points, win win.

[costicina]

I think is a great idea...Tha'ts exactly what Bernhard recommended, and as far as I have  experienced, Bernhard was NEVER wrong!

[pianoplunker]

If you think about all are studies are a bit silly really -if you master a study all you will be able to say with any certainty is that you can play the study well -whenever you encounter arpeggios for example in a different piece -it will present different problems anyway. This particular study is actually harmful for people with small hands I think -should come with a health warning!

It is also said often that you need to master the studies if you want to play the scherzos or the ballades- but nowhere in those pieces are prolonged demands made in one particular technical area -there is usually a page or two or most -but studies go on and on relentlessly -It is much more rewarding musically I think to learn the Chopin Ballades.  I don't think you need to master the studies first.

I have never played any of the Chopin Etudes but have played ( or tried to play) the Premiere Ballade in Gm . Are you saying that small hands are safer with the Ballade than the Etude?  I think any piece of music can be harmful if you are not careful how you position yourself and your wrists/elbow/shoulders/back/neck/feet. And there is nothing about the Ballade I tried that indicated it was safe for small hands. What I like about the etudes is listening to them. Leave it to Chopin to write a "study" which is a great piece of music to listen ! I am gettin an itch to try Op10 - 1 myself .   Maybe we could have a Piano Street contest to see who can play it the best . We could call it "Etude Idol". Even though I dont really care for posting a recording that is only half done , and I am very critical of some, I do appreciate seeing fellow pianists coming into form with it. Op10 -1 , I think I'll work out the left hand

[danhuyle]

Playing at Melbourne library on Flinders Lane right? I play there sometimes too. We should meet up sometime.

[ajspiano]

Playing at Melbourne library on Flinders Lane right? I play there sometimes too. We should meet up sometime.

Ha! well spotted. Will send you a PM.

[49410enrique]

Playing at Melbourne library on Flinders Lane right? I play there sometimes too. We should meet up sometime.

that's rad! i wish libraries in the states had pianos....

[ajspiano]

that's rad! i wish libraries in the states had pianos....

Its only the one place, i've not heard of any other library having one - I was pretty stunned when I first moved here and there was a piano there.

Dan - I might be able to do a friday at some point, though I teach Friday nights so I'm not sure when it will be. That said, there is a bar on little collins street - The Vic hotel (not far from the library) - they've got a baby grand in there (pretty out of shape but anyone is allowed to play) if you fancy a beer and piano sometime. Will be in touch.

[birba]

that's rad!

Yeah, that's really rad.  Just curious, how long has that word been around?

[49410enrique]

Yeah, that's really rad.  Just curious, how long has that word been around?

i think the 80's gave birth to that jewel
i mean c'mon there's a movie named after it!

the word is so powerful it derailed a strong chopin thread lol.

ok let's bring it back to the chopin etude. it's a rad etude!

[ajspiano]

ok let's bring it bad to the chopin etude.

..I've been wanting to post another video, though I feel a little bit like people will get sick of all my videos of the same piece. Its a bit different to some other projects we've had, I think its a bit less multi participant friendy because the piece is such a monster - not because people can't play it, just that it takes a lot of time an dedication to show good improvements  - that is certainly my experience anyway, I make small changes and can really tell how it makes it better for me right away, but it takes time for them to "sink in" and the whole piece be better for a listener.

The last few days, I'm starting to get to be able to play the whole piece at a decent pace musically and completely without errors. Though thats a perspective thing really isnt it, because what I mean there is "no wrong notes" I still don't have the control over the dynamics  that I'd like. Bar 64 is really the only remaining technical challenge that's execution is "on and off" when playing in the 150-160 tempo range.

My other problem bars are coming together well, they aren't perfect, but i get them right more like 80-90% of the time instead of 50/50.

These improvements are mostly a result of "movement conscious cycling" of those 2 bar areas at a slower tempo, juxtaposed against full paced attempts to locate the exact problems and ensure I'm not learning new problems at the slower tempo. In some cases I'm initially just making fast attempts at only a few beats, and then building on it to create the whole 2 bars over a series of steps.

...Then that's juxtaposed against more music conscious performance of 4 or 8 bar sections repeated, recorded, listened and rerecorded.. performing sections with different interpretive ideas.. Though I'm finding less time to practice the last week or so its all baby steps.

[jerrys88]

AJ - I really admire how you are going about this - consciously and methodically observing your movements to see what's not working and figuring out what works better. I've no doubt you'll accomplish your goals with this (and judging from the videos you posted you're already well on your way!).

I find measure 64, and similar bar 22, challenging as well. The hand has to move forward for the 5th finger to play the Eb (D# in measure 22) but then the decision has to be made where to play the following white notes. Some pianists pull the hand out of the black key area to play the following white notes outside the black key area while some stay in the black key area and play the white notes between the black keys. Each solution poses its own challenge. What I find particularly challenging in learning this etude is that what works at just-under performance tempo can fall apart when the tempo is notched up just that final bit. Right now I'm leaning toward keeping my hand in the black key area. I'm curious if this is the problem you're having and what decision you come to about it.

I know what you mean about this being a relatively long-term project with gradual improvement. Sometimes I think what it needs is not just a prolonged amount of time working on it, but also some time away from it after all the work is done. I've had experience working on technically difficult passages where I finally gave up only to find after weeks or months of not playing it that all my work paid off.

Keep up the great work, AJ!

[ajspiano]

I find measure 64, and similar bar 22, challenging as well. The hand has to move forward for the 5th finger to play the Eb (D# in measure 22) but then the decision has to be made where to play the following white notes. Some pianists pull the hand out of the black key area to play the following white notes outside the black key area while some stay in the black key area and play the white notes between the black keys. Each solution poses its own challenge.

This is a cool point. I initially was pulling my hand out as I felt so tangled up in the black keys, but then I ended up feeling like I was violently going in-out of the keys at an unmanagable speed as the tempo increased, now I stay in the keys, but had to adjust my technique significantly to make it work - feels much better now at the high tempos.

What I find particularly challenging in learning this etude is that what works at just-under performance tempo can fall apart when the tempo is notched up just that final bit.

Yes this is a real issue. Its so physically demanding a piece that there is a never ending concern of practicing technical errors...  practicing too fast, practicing too slow, practicing without music, practicing with music and forgetting to maintain good movements..  etc. etc.  Massive effects on the causes of tension in the fingers/hand/wrist/arm with each tempo notch as you push beyond 160, leading to very minute adjustments required to maintain comfort - that are easily forgotten again if you practice below that tempo.