Five against three

[pk]

I think it´s quite tricky to play as an example
Scriabin Op 8/2,8/4.
five notes with right hand against three notes in the left.
What piece of that kind is the trickiest, not necessarily three against five.

[tomcc]

what about when three against five is in the right hand alone? I'm thinking of Chopin e- concerto 1st mvt (recap theme B before coda, I think) and also one of his pieces for piano and orchestra, mabye Fantasia on Polish Airs?
THis timing is, of course, more difficult at a slow tempo, like one of the op23 Rach preludes with slow groups of five in the right. These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more.
Oh! Barber Excursions, one of them is 7 against 8 (just count 56 and you'll have it perfectly--ha ha).

Cheers, Tom

[Max]

1--2--3--4--5
1----2----3---

Kind of like that.

[anda]

where in chopin no1 is 5 against 3 in the right hand? i played the concert but can't remember that. anyway, you find various combinations of x against y in various works, the trick is always the same - play each hand equally against the beat and focus on the line - not on mathematical fractions.

[super_ardua]

There is an easy way to see in two different type of rhythms which note fits where

Code: [Select]

Legend : 3 is thirds, 5 is fifths, e is a fast elementary pulse
5 : 1-----2-----3-----4--------5-----|
e : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
3 : 1---------2----------3-----------|


It is easier to see if you do it vertically

[tomcc]

I have the Henle edition of the Chopin e-minor, and it is where I I think I said it was, before the coda (theme B). The triplet is in the thumb, and the quintuplet at the top. I'm pretty sure that it is like that in the other editions, although Henle does some weird stuff with Chopin.

[Nightscape]

The middle section (slower part) of L'isle Joyeuse has the same thing - five 8ths in the LH, with groupings of three in the RH.  But the right hand 8ths are sometimes dotted too, which makes it trickier.  It's hard to get the lh part right though, because I have a tendency to get the five notes over with before the RH finishes the meausure.  I think the main problem with 5 against 3 is making sure not to rush the fives, because they aren't as fast as you think they are.

[ted]

While these things are certainly easy to see with diagrams, getting the feel of them can sometimes be an effort. My old teacher told me a way of doing this. What you do is first play a slightly incorrect rhythm, but one much easier to feel. After a short time, let it slide mentally into the correct, independent one. I don't imagine this trick was original to him but it's pretty good.

For example, in 3/5 play first

1 - - 2 - - - 3 - -
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 -

For 3/4 play first

1 - - 2 - 3 - -
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 -

and slowly bring the two series of notes toward regularity.

It is worth mentioning, however, that felt rhythms are extremely complicated and intuitive things, which defy precise notation altogether. I remember when I was a kid my teacher gave me his latest Asian based fantasy to learn – very exciting and difficult piano music – but we spent a whole lesson on one rhythm ! I insisted I was playing what was in the music. He replied that he knew what was in the music because he bloody well wrote it, and he knew I was playing what was in the music, but I hadn’t yet felt it the right way and we would therefore continue the lesson until I did. After half an hour of swapping seats and exasperated vocalisation it suddenly clicked in a big way.

That was a tremendous revelation for me. I never forgot that lesson and its message that notation and arithmetic analysis fall light years short of capturing intuitively felt rhythm.