Transposing difficulties (Key doesn't exist)

[jimhalpert]

So I was asked to transpose a piece in F minor DOWN an augmented 4th. If I am not mistaken, the new key would be C flat minor, which doesn't exist. How could I write a key signature for the transposed piece? I don't think changing the key enharmonically is allowed... Thanks again.

[49410enrique]

edit correcting....

[zezhyrule]

B Minor anyone?  Or is there something I'm missing here Edit: Oh there was something I was missing. The last line of your post  

According to wikipedia the key of C-Flat Minor would have three double-flats in the key signature  

[jimhalpert]

49410enrique, that's what I put down (this was on a theory exam, so I found it surprising)

zezhyrule, wouldn't B minor be a diminished fifth from F minor?

[49410enrique]

49410enrique, that's what I put down (this was on a theory exam, so I found it surprising)

zezhyrule, wouldn't B minor be a diminished fifth from F minor?

omg sorry i just re read this, you said f minor, i just read F , F down an augmented 4 is c flat minor but the key signature would not have 7 flats sorry, that woudl be c flat major.

sorry about that i corrected the first reply.

this does put you in a strange place

i would just write it enharmonically in b minor with a single sharp and call it good. since the relative major is d major.  you kind of have to write it that way or it get's very ugly and doesn't make sense.

sorry i was mistaken before.

[iratior]

Point of information:  do you have to actually WRITE DOWN what the piece is when transposed down an augmented fourth, or do you just have to PLAY IT as if it were?  Because if you just have to play it as if it were, you can just play it in the enharmonically equivalent B minor and pretend that that is C-flat minor.  If you actually have to write it down, I don't know what customary practice would be but I've NEVER seen music written with double-flats in the key signature.  And for C-flat minor you would need E-double-flat, A double-flat, and B double-flat in the scale.

[iratior]

Still another way to find out what conventions apply might be to look at orchestral scores, especially those using an A-clarinet.  You look at the score for, say, a C-major piece and discover that the A-clarinet's part is written as if it were in E-flat major.  Then, if the you saw the score for an orchestral work in D-flat major, the A-clarinet's part would have three more flats.   This will permit you to discover what the writing conventions are.

[oxy60]

I'm glad they're teaching this stuff.

Isn't B minor related to the key of D major with 2 sharps? And don't we limit the number of sharps or flats in a key signature to 5 or 6? Anyone know the convention? At a certain point the key signature becomes unnecessarily complicated for the player. 

[iratior]

In written music for the piano, the key signature never has more than seven sharps or flats.  An example where there are seven sharps is the Bach WTC 1 prelude and fugue in C# major.  An example of seven flats is a funeral march in an early Beethoven sonata.

[cudo]

In written music for the piano, the key signature never has more than seven sharps or flats.  An example where there are seven sharps is the Bach WTC 1 prelude and fugue in C# major.  An example of seven flats is a funeral march in an early Beethoven sonata.

Hi iratior,

you are right although 7 accidentals come across extremely rare.

In the case of "Bachs WTC 1 prelude and fugue in C# major" the history tells that this prelude and fugue was written by Bach originally in the Key of C. When writing the cycle of the WTC Bach needed a piece for the key of Db. For that he used the in former times composed prelude and fuge in C and to not have to write the whole score again he put it instead of the key of Db in the key of C#. So he could use the same allready written score just adding the necessary accidentals. Pretty clever, don't you think so?!

[iratior]

Well, it was very clever.  So to borrow from Ellen DeGeneres, "Bach" at ya, cudo!

[stiefel]

Evocacion from iberia by albeniz is written in a flat minor (7 flats).

[oxy60]

Evocacion from iberia by albeniz is written in a flat minor (7 flats).

He could have also used 5 sharps and called it G sharp minor.