Mental Play, is it necessary/helpful

[link0126]

I've seen in the book fundamentals of piano practice the idea of going over the piece in your head with the correct fingering as if you were sitting at the piano playing, but without actually playing, just imagining it in your head. I've been trying to do this over the weekend with Bach invention 1, which I am in the process of learning, and I find it really difficult. Do you do this, and do you have any tips on how to get better at it? what has it specifically helped you with?

 I am hoping it will help me with memorization. I tend to forget pieces I learn after only a few months of not playing them. Not sure if that's normal. It always amazes me how some people can go know so many songs and recall them on the spot when they are requested.

[kalirren]

I think it is helpful.  C. Chang says 90% of flubs originate in the brain, but Ralph Kirkpatrick is even more specific.  Kirkpatrick says that there are two elements of any motion on the piano, the preparation and the execution.  It can be difficult to focus on preparation.  Sometimes MP really exposes where you're not actually preparing for the next note or next set of notes.

When my piano teacher suspected I was having trouble with preparation, he would sometimes have me play a silent piano (like, just the action, no strings) to really expose the preparatory element of the playing process.  The silent piano was there to give my muscle memory the correct tactile feedback of playing at a keyboard, but even then, I still had to auditorialize ("mentally hear") the notes correctly and prepare every motion without the auditory feedback of hearing the piece as I was playing it.

[keyboardclass]

I've seen in the book fundamentals of piano practice the idea of going over the piece in your head with the correct fingering as if you were sitting at the piano playing, but without actually playing, just imagining it in your head.

We all do this.  Movements must come to volition first then are realized.  Concentration's the key - I find that is all about life style.

[j_menz]

We all do this.

Some of us don't. And if I'm playing well, my volition relates to music, not movement.

[ajspiano]

Some of us don't. And if I'm playing well, my volition relates to music, not movement.

I suspect Kclass is saying that we all atleast do it subconciously - as in its not possible to play without the brain processing the idea of how to play, you must will yourself to play or you will not play...  bringing it into the conscious realm is the idea behind changs mental play though I gather. You give each and every note focus because there are no other cues available to make it a subconscious decision.

..and perhaps that it is possible to do this without the use of mental play, if you simply focus and concentrate on what you are doing.

[j_menz]

I suspect Kclass is saying that we all atleast do it subconciously - as in its not possible to play without the brain processing the idea of how to play, you must will yourself to play or you will not play...  bringing it into the conscious realm is the idea behind changs mental play though I gather. You give each and every note focus because there are no other cues available to make it a subconscious decision.

..and perhaps that it is possible to do this without the use of mental play, if you simply focus and concentrate on what you are doing.

Quite so.  I probably should have also added that I quite often don't "play well", at which times I am much more conscious of, thinking about and willing movement.

[p2u_]

[...]Do you do this, and do you have any tips on how to get better at it? what has it specifically helped you with?

 I am hoping it will help me with memorization.

It is my experience that reproductive memory in piano playing consists of two things only:
1) finger memory +
2) black and white (the keys, that is)

Not even your ears or your analytical/theoretical abilities will help you if 1 and 2 are not ingrained in the subconscious. That is probably why many memory lapses in great pianists happen in places where they have almost nothing to do.

Mental play is just one of the strategies that help you in the process of learning, but  it should not be overestimated. Actually, I wouldn't do it too close to a performance. As the (I believe) Chinese saying goes: Ask a centipede how he manages to walk with a hundred legs, and it will fall down. During performance, the only thing that can help you is the mood, the atmosphere of the piece, which should be planned meticulously, also during your preparation for a concert.

Paul

[thalbergmad]

If you cannot play it in your head, you have got no chance on the piano.

Thal

[keyboardclass]

Mental play is just one of the strategies that help you in the process of learning,

It's more than that.  The biggest hurdle in performance is adrenaline.  'mental play' exists in a place adrenaline can't get at.

[p2u_]

It's more than that.  The biggest hurdle in performance is adrenaline.  'mental play' exists in a place adrenaline can't get at.

Adrenaline is just one factor, for example when a pianist suffers from extreme performance anxiety. But there are many examples where adrenaline is not the cause of something going seriously wrong, and even if the pianist practices mental play. Arthur Rubinstein, for example, is known for having learned by heart very difficult compositions without even touching his piano; he must have known the art of mental play. If that is the case, then please explain to me what is going on here (from the legendary Moscow recital, 1 October 1964): Frédéric Chopin - Sonate no 2, second part. He gets out of trouble really well, but this is a terrible case of finger memory failure, if you ask me, in a place that hasn't been practised enough because it's, well, 'not difficult'.

Paul

[pts1]

At least for me, I "practice in my head".

I very slowly go over the music, the expression, the playing of it, directing in my mind how it needs to be. I imagine playing the keys, the playing of them,  and if I have a "memory slip" in my head away from the piano, I fix it.

For me, this is the final and perhaps most important step in really having security with a piece.

Absolutely the technic and muscle memory must be there, but the REAL security is in my mind.

This "visualization/thought" process really brings everything together for me.

And if I can't do this, then I don't know the piece yet.

[keyboardclass]

Exactly, and one slip of concentration and you're in dangerous waters - Rubinstein has obviously been there.

[p2u_]

For me, this is the final and perhaps most important step in really having security with a piece.

As a check point of where you are, yes, I agree. But the trouble with how my memory works is that the image tends to fade. I can do it in the morning, but if I haven't had any physical training during the day, then in the evening, when I repeat the procedure, there may be minor 'holes' in that image. Besides, the assumption with mental play is that on the day of the concert, you'll be physically OK, you'll be able to concentrate 100%, etc. If that is not the case and the image hasn't been backed up by elementary reflex training, then unexpected things can happen. I've been through that more than once.

Paul

[keyboardclass]

But the trouble with how my memory works is that the image tends to fade.

True.  I've learnt pieces solely from the book - after a few weeks the fingers have taken over!  It's just mental laziness.

[p2u_]

It's just mental laziness.

Glad to find out I'm only human.

Paul

[link0126]

Should I practice this with the score in front of me or completely in my mind. I tried it once today and already found it easier than yesterday.

[keyboardclass]

Fix the fingerings then memorize it away from the keyboard - only look at the score as you have to. 

[mobydick]

I 'play' with my fingers at lunch, dinner, on the bus, bday party, aunt Edna's tea, movies, even during math exams. all unconsciously though...

[pianoyutube]

I've been trying to do this over the weekend with Bach invention 1, which I am in the process of learning, and I find it really difficult. Do you do this, and do you have any tips on how to get better at it? what has it specifically helped you with?

I use this technique for memorization.
My tip: Once I have the piece on my fingers, but still have memory blackouts, I read the score while I'm listening at the music on my stereo (computer, mp3, ...). I play on the table while listening and reading. After this I can remove the score and listen and play. And then I can play only with my mind.
Once I can do this, I don't need the score any more.
Well, sometimes I forget a transition. I review the score if needed

[thalbergmad]

Should I practice this with the score in front of me or completely in my mind.

In my own personal experience, if the score is not already in my mind after a couple of readings, this indicates that I don't really like the piece and should not be playing it.

Of course, this does depend on the length and complexity of the piece in question.

Thal

[ahinton]

It's helpful, though not always necessary (who in his/her right mind would prepare or perform any of Sorabji's larger works without a score infront of them?) but, during the preparation stages, much will presumably depend upon the extent to which the pianist makes notes on his/her score to which he/she will want to refer from time to time.

Best,

Alistair

[mobydick]

In my own personal experience, if the score is not already in my mind after a couple of readings, this indicates that I don't really like the piece and should not be playing it.

Of course, this does depend on the length and complexity of the piece in question.

Thal

Couldn't agree more. sometimes if I like the beginning of a piece I even read the whole thing in my mind and go home with it. Its your mind that pushes you to play and not the other way around, you should not be reading, playing it 300 times and then 'ooops, I cannot mental play this piece..'

[thalbergmad]

who in his/her right mind would prepare or perform any of Sorabji's larger works

Agreed.

[pts1]

One time famous pianist John Browning (now deceased) said that he tried numerous ways to memorize, but what worked for him was playing the music over and over until he eventually no longer needed the score.

That's pretty much how it is for me, with the caveat that I MUST really like the piece and find an emotional connection, i.e. MY vision of the piece.

If I can't do that, I can't memorize it.

Having said all that, now I'll contradict myself.

Sometimes, eventhough I like a piece in terms of hearing a recording, it is slow going trying to read, make sense of it, discover the fingerings, etc., etc., etc.

Rachmaninoff is a good example in that it can be so dense, in so many keys, literally all over the keybord and not at all self-evident until you get to a certain point of proficiency with it.

Which means, even though I don't "like" the slow slogging of this somewhat miserable and mentally exhausting process trying to chop through the jungle of notes and assimilate complex works, its simply necessary to hang in there or I'll never "see the light at the end of the tunnel".

But this is a very individual thing, and in the end, its the performance that counts, not how you got there.

[ahinton]

Agreed.

I totally set you up for that one, Thal and I knew that you'd not let me down; it was just a matter of how long it would take you to post yet another of your typical predictabilities!

That said, the answer is "those who do".

Now go memorise something on your banjo, there's a good chap.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I totally set you up for that one, Thal

Your attempts to update your diction to the 21st Century is amusing.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Now go memorise something on your banjo, there's a good chap.

I have just memorized the chords to "Waitin' for the Robert E Lee" in 25 minutes.

Now just need to add in some strum patterns, tremelos and sliding glisses.

Thal

[ahinton]

Your attempts to update your diction to the 21st Century is amusing.

No updates involved, let me assure you - and, in any case, "attempts" "are" amusing, not "is" amusing (if indeed they are), so your handling of 21st Century grammer ain't amewsing at all, I'm afrayed...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

and, in any case, "attempts" "are" amusing, not "is" amusing

If you think that is so, you have fallen back into the 20th Century.

Thal

[ahinton]

If you think that is so, you have fallen back into the 20th Century.

I don't think so, since the notions of singularity and plurality did not exactly jump out of the window as the century turned; in any event, for one such as you, a large part of whose heart appears to be in the century before that, I'm not so sure in any case that you're placed in quite the strongest position to enable you to remark with authority upon others' possible fallings back into previous centuries.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Gawd, he is back in the 19th Century now.

Gadzooks.

Thal

[ahinton]

Gawd, he is back in the 19th Century now.

Gadzooks.

It's hard to see how that might be, for whilst the 19th century history of England is not a subject upon which I claim expertise, I have nevertheless to admit that I have scant recollection that anyone typed posts to internet fora on computer keyboards in those days - and it would be even harder for any such person to write meaningfully and informatively about the music of Sorabji, since none of it had been written during that century.

Furthermore, it might be a good idea for you to figure out in which century/ies (Neander)Thals adorned our planet before making suggestions as to the century in which a particular human might be.

A swift return to the topic is surely not merely recommended but essential!

Best,

Alistair

[akthe47]

It's a cognitive bias that you think anyone really cares who is right or wrong in an Internet scuffle, let alone on a piano message board.

Nobody is reading what is going on between you 2.  Save your fingers for practice on the keyboard.

[natalyaturetskii]

Well, anyway...
I always found this idea a little odd. Once, my teacher made me try it - and it really helped. I think that it was a way to 'internalise' the music and understand it really well. When you are playing it without a piano, you have to create the sound, the texture, the tonality...etc. You have to be in control of everything that you mentally play and when you return to the piano, you have more or less decided how every note is to be played and what you want the end result to sound like. But, I think that sometimes, a few technical issues can still be a problem.

Natalya

[j_menz]

I think that there are two aspects to mental practice:

Firstly, there is the working through of the mechanics of playing a piece.  There is a considerable body of study and evidence from sporting fields that mental practice, or visualisation, can be very effective. There is even evidence that it can build muscles!    It is a very useful way of overcoming problems and "internalising" motion.  I suspect that how effective it is in any individual case is a factor of both how well/thouroughly it is fdone, and also how effective the visualised technique is in practical terms (if what you visualise is a bad technique, you will wind up with a bad technique and have to then undo it later)

The second aspect is, as Natalya says, a better understanding of the music itself. The better you know what it is that you are trying to achieve, the more likely you are to achieve it.

[thalbergmad]

Nobody is reading what is going on between you 2. 

If you had been here longer than 2 months, you would know that they do.

Thal

[pianoplunker]

I've seen in the book fundamentals of piano practice the idea of going over the piece in your head with the correct fingering as if you were sitting at the piano playing, but without actually playing, just imagining it in your head. I've been trying to do this over the weekend with Bach invention 1, which I am in the process of learning, and I find it really difficult. Do you do this, and do you have any tips on how to get better at it? what has it specifically helped you with?

 I am hoping it will help me with memorization. I tend to forget pieces I learn after only a few months of not playing them. Not sure if that's normal. It always amazes me how some people can go know so many songs and recall them on the spot when they are requested.

Yes I have sometimes gone over pieces or sections of pieces in my head. The only tip I have is that you cannot do this feat unless you already have it memorized.  Going over the piece in your head does help with execution in my opinion but it doesnt help with retaining a repertoire for months. You still have to at least run thru a piece now and then - with your fingers. I include head-practice as part of practice only on occasion sort of like I use a metronome on occasion to help with control. As far as the amazing people who know so many songs, they still forget sometimes. And that is even after they have played many times.  Memorizing Bach is a huge challenge and you should not give up. After memorizing Bach you will be able to memorize alot more.

[keyboardclass]

If you had been here longer than 2 months, you would know that they do.

Thal

I for one love reading great spats!  ('aving 'em as well)

Good post plunker!

[ahinton]

It's a cognitive bias that you think anyone really cares who is right or wrong in an Internet scuffle, let alone on a piano message board.

Nobody is reading what is going on between you 2.  Save your fingers for practice on the keyboard.

OK, let's unpack this and unpick it one bit at a time.

Neither Thal nor I have suggested anything one way or the other about whether anyone thinks that either of us is right about anything here.

Thal decided, for reasons best known to himself - to make what is quite clearly a selective quotation from a post of mine as part of his response to that post.

My post was - and was intended to be - incidental, albeit still related, to the thread topic of music memorisation, whereas Thal's response is - and is clearly intended to be - nothing of the kind.

The exchanges between us that followed - which arose not from my post but from Thal's response to it - hardly constitute an "Internet scuffle" in any case.

Neither you nor anyone else can be certain as to how many forum members are or have been reading those exchanges.

Saving my fingers for keyboard practice would be rather a waste of my time and digital energy since, unlike Thal, I am not a pianist.

I did urge a return to the thread topic following Thal's strange off-topic excursion into the realms of past centuries based upon something or other that he omits to explain.

I don't think that you've earned yourself many points out of ten here; a little judicious research and careful thought on your part before posting might not have come amiss!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I for one love reading great spats!  ('aving 'em as well)

Is that what you do in keyboard class?(!)...

Best,

Alistair