How to raise issues with a stubborn teacher?

[scott13]

Hi all,

Long time since I have visited this site, however I thought perhaps some of the teachers reading this forum can perhaps give me some advice.

My main question is how do you discuss important issues without offending your teacher?

My teacher and I seem to constantly be in disagreement about virtually everything, and this is at a University institution. These range from interpretive issues (the last time i defended my tempo choice in a work it led to him becoming incredibly defensive and irritated that I had argued the point in a master-class) , all the way through to whether or not I should be learning major works in the piano repertoire such as the Schumann Op 13, or the Etudes of Liszt.

He very much has a "my way or the wrong way" mentality which is rather obtrusive to my development. Also note changing teachers is only an option next year, so for the remainder of this year i', somewhat stuck with him.

I should also mention that up until this year I had never been taught by a teacher, so the experience is a particularly new one for me, however I doubt the majority of teachers are this stubborn?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Scott

[ted]

Well he can't tell you how to play the Hundred Islands Scott, that's for sure. Ha ha ! Seriously, I sympathise with you but wouldn't have a clue what to do. I'll leave it to the classical experts here. Good luck.

[p2u_]

My main question is how do you discuss important issues without offending your teacher?

First of all, you convince by how you play. Mostly, they start changing things when you are not delivering the message you had in mind. They may ask "Why do you play this like that?" and your story had better be good. Prepare for that discussion at home.

Second, on no account should you refer to authorities, who told you to do otherwise; NEVER! (Is that the "masterclass" story you are referring to, or did I misread that?) This will make them VERY defensive up to the point of sending you out of class.

Third, you may just act pragmatically and do as he asks you to do right there to avoid conflicts, and in another setting do your own thing anyway.

Hope this helps.

Paul

[scott13]

First of all, you convince by how you play. Mostly, they start changing things when you are not delivering the message you had in mind. They may ask "Why do you play this like that?" and your story had better be good. Prepare for that discussion at home.

Second, on no account should you refer to authorities, who told you to do otherwise; NEVER! (Is that the "masterclass" story you are referring to, or did I misread that?) This will make them VERY defensive up to the point of sending you out of class.

Third, you may just act pragmatically and do as he asks you to do right there to avoid conflicts, and in another setting do your own thing anyway.

Hope this helps.

Paul

The master-class story went something like this: Was playing through a particular work of Chopin's and he made a point of telling me my interpretation was bad based on the choice of tempo. I argued the point, by saying Chopin wrote "Allegro, not Masteoso, therefore fair game to take it faster" I nearly did get removed from that master-class.

Your third option is really what I have adopted. I'm performing Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto in two months, and in the interest of avoiding conflict I have simply not told my teacher i'm doing this. But taking this approach inhibits my learning and development, as I can not really ask for help on the works that need it because we fundamentally disagree on whether or not I should be learning these works.

[p2u_]

I argued the point, by saying

He was wrong by calling it "bad".
You were wrong by giving the wrong arguments. Musicological arguments like "Chopin did this, Chopin did that" won't work because they are too open for discussion. We just don't know. The publishers sometimes changed stuff, you know.
In your arguments, you should generally refer to mood or atmospere, to the image YOU had in mind, the heartbeat or whatever. Something imaginative. Let him argue against THAT. Let him relate to HIS image; you might even like it if you listen with your heart. And I repeat: in the process you should not question the man's authority. That's what you actually did. I paraphrase what you tried to do: "Who are you to say so, when Chopin..." You see, that hurts just about anyone, especially before an audience...

Paul

[scott13]

He was wrong by calling it "bad".
You were wrong by giving the wrong arguments. Musicological arguments like "Chopin did this, Chopin did that" won't work because they are too open for discussion. We just don't know. The publishers sometimes changed stuff, you know.
In your arguments, you should generally refer to mood or atmospere, to the image YOU had in mind, the heartbeat or whatever. Something imaginative. Let him argue against THAT. Let him relate to HIS image; you might even like it if you listen with your heart. And I repeat: in the process you should not question the man's authority. That's what you actually did. I paraphrase what you tried to do: "Who are you to say so, when Chopin..." You see, that hurts just about anyone, especially before an audience...

Paul

In the interest of not filling out a page with the exact back and fourth, rest assured my argument was centered heavily around my own imagery. I merely mentioned the tempo direction as that was a factor in forming my imagery.

Surely however, questioning his opinion is a valid exercise? If he cannot defend his own opinion he shouldn't have made a comment? That;s only my thoughts however I do not believe I was questioning his authority, just his views.

[p2u_]

In the interest of not filling out a page with the exact back and fourth, rest assured my argument was centered heavily around my own imagery. I merely mentioned the tempo direction as that was a factor in forming my imagery.

Well, I'm sure that it was not what you INTENTED; it was what actually happened. That's how people's minds and emotions work. Keep that in mind for the future.

Surely however, questioning his opinion is a valid exercise? If he cannot defend his own opinion he shouldn't have made a comment? That;s only my thoughts however I do not believe I was questioning his authority, just his views.

Hmm. In your teacher-student relationship, who is having lessons with whom? And why are you having lessons with him, and not with somebody else, who may be more considerate? He is not supposed to DEFEND himself against your arguments. You make a point by how you play. He reacts to that to help you (that's what I hope). Let's say he calls your playing "bad". Now it's your task to pick his brain, asking questions, asking him even to play it for you, etc. I think this is basically an exercise in humbleness on your part if you ask me. Otherwise you may just as well cancel lessons with him. Such a project makes no sense to me.

Paul

[scott13]

Well, I'm sure that it was not what you INTENTED; it was what actually happened. That's how people's minds and emotions work. Keep that in mind for the future.

Hmm. In your teacher-student relationship, who is having lessons with whom? And why are you having lessons with him, and not with somebody else, who may be more considerate?

Paul

I couldn't afford to study overseas with the teacher I was also accepted to study with. Hence why I am studying within my country under this teacher.

I can appreciate the point you make on this particular example of interpretation, however if I may ask your thoughts on the other issues at hand too? Things such as repertoire and technical development? Surely the average teacher-student relationship should not be this divisive? 

[p2u_]

if I may ask your thoughts on the other issues at hand too? Things such as repertoire and technical development? Surely the average teacher-student relationship should not be this divisive?

Unfortunately, there are not so many really good teachers (in the sense of good psychologists). Some think that you need to humiliate the student to make him "grow". It seems to me that your teacher is one of those and I am sincerely sorry for you. If you have no other options, then the only thing I can think of is split up your development in two:
1) bear his regimen in a humble way, avoiding a lesson or two from time to time whenever you are not ready for the onslaught;
2) think, read and develop your own views in some other way parallel to those "lessons".

Paul

[scott13]

Unfortunately, there are not so many really good teachers (in the sense of good psychologists). Some think that you need to humiliate the student to make him "grow". It seems to me that your teacher is one of those and I am sincerely sorry for you. If you have no other options, then the only I thing I can think of is split up your development in two:
1) bear his regimen in a humble way, avoiding a lesson or two from time to time whenever you are not ready for the onslaught;
2) think, read and develop your own views in some other way parallel to those "lessons".

Paul

That is an interesting insight, most likely he is indeed one of those teachers.

Do you have any ideas for how to perhaps bring these issues to his attention without causing more tension than there already is? As after only three months this has already become a huge issue for me, and the thought of another 6 months with these types of lessons is not a pleasant one.

Thank you for the insight too, I appreciate the feedback.

[p2u_]

Do you have any ideas for how to perhaps bring these issues to his attention without causing more tension than there already is?

Well, if you are ready to take some really good advice, then listen to this. It's like in a bad marriage - sometimes you have to take the blame on yourself to save the relationship, even if in reality everything is different. Many women do that "for the children", etc. Ask him if he could consider starting anew. Tell him that you realize that during the past three months it hasn't been working out very well between the two of you, and that you feel you are entirely to blame for this. Promise it won't happen again, you know... That kind of stuff...

Paul

[p2u_]

And here is another idea for you.

You can't change the man; don't even try. If you want to stand tall like an oak (start conflicts with him), you'll break. You need the approach of a willow: he loads your branches with snow, you sway and you bow, lower and lower and at a certain point, you bounce up and all the snow he has put on you falls off, and you proudly raise your posture; the victory is yours. After a couple of months or so, he may even change his approach towards you for the good. Hope that helps.

Paul

[pytheamateur]

You must be unlucky, I suppose.  I have had lessons with two teachers who teach at conservatories and have only positive things to say about them.

A relationship is a two-way thing.  As you say this is your first teacher.  He may simply not be used to teaching someone who has never had a teacher before; afterall most students are likely to have had one (if not more) teacher before entering university and to have been tamed by the previous teacher before.

You are quite exceptional to have made it into a conservatory, having only played the piano for 18 months previously.  One would not be surprised if you behave differently from the "normal" student, and judging from the confrontational tone of some of your previous posts, perhaps the disagreements with your teacher are to be expected.

If the problem lies with the teacher, then don't worry about it.  You are not playing the piano in order to please the teacher.  As you probably know already, Gilels did not get on with his teacher Neuhaus but still went on to become a great pianist.