Getting chords quiet and even whilst voicing...

[mosis]

So I'm learning Rachmaninoff's cis-moll prelude, and what I've found in many of my pieces is that it's the softest, slowest parts that are actually the most difficult.

I'm really having trouble with two things. The first is to get the opening section chords even AND quiet, whilst bringing out the top note in each chord. I can usually do two of the three, but when I try all three, something else lacks. I don't know if it's my piano or if I just suck, but when playing chords quietly, they are not sounding evenly.

The same problem occurs during the Grave sections of Pathetique, and the B section of the second movement. My teacher told me to "finger pedal," and I have no problem doing this if there is only ONE note, but with chords, they are either ridiculously uneven, ridiculously loud, or too detached.

And as always, when trying to voice one particular note in a chord, especially if there is a larger stretch, the chord sounds unevenly.

Help?

[xvimbi]

I hear you! I consider playing even, quiet chords while emphasizing certain notes one of the most difficult technical challenges (at least for me).

I found for myself that, the quieter the chord, the more rigid my hand has to be, and the more force I need to apply. That sounds contradictory, so let me explain: For us strong humans, depressing a few keys is very easy and does not require a lot of force. If I however want to exactly control the speed with which the keys go down, I find a combination of force and counterforce to be the best way. So, I apply a lot of force for the down movement, but it is adjusted to the desired amount by the action of antagonistic muscles. The fingers that play the notes and the wrist are as rigid as possible, so that no bounce in any joint can cause uneveneness. Emphasis on a certain note is achieved by leaning into that note. I'm in trouble if two nonadjacent notes need to be emphasized. Also, chords that involve both black and white keys need some more practice, simply because the fingers have to be at different heights.

Others might be able to achieve the necessary control mostly through finger movements; I am not one of them.

Looking forward to more suggestions.

[Egghead]

So I'm learning Rachmaninoff's cis-moll prelude, and what I've found in many of my pieces is that it's the softest, slowest parts that are actually the most difficult. ..
?

hum. I am familiar with the problem of making quiet chords sound nice...
I apologise for having to ask a rather elementary question: what is meant here by evenness of chords?
a) Simultaneity of the notes in one chord? b) Even volume of notes in one chord (apart from the emphasised note)? c) Same volume from chord to chord?d) something else?

Would a) and b) perhaps benefit from "thinking" the "even" part of the chord as chord (with xvimbis "locked" position) and the top note as melody and actually playing them as two separate parts? So you first learn to play the chord part perfectly and learn to add arbitrary notes to it which are then independently controlled? This means the "melody" note is controlled by finger movement taking into account the global hand movement dictated by the chord. Please let me know if this makes any sense to you.
Alternative: the usual - deliberately vary the parameter(s) you are trying to perfect. Play the whole chord but MAKE the top note come in too early, too late, too loud, too quietly...

I look forward to more posts on this intriguing question!
Egghead

[m1469]

There are a couple of things that I like to do to accomplish what you are talking about.   But one must always begin by knowing exactly what it is that one is trying to achieve and then develop that particular sound in ear (which is the ultimate goal).  One of the pit falls is in thinking "I want to hear the *emphasized* note over all the rest" and then stopping there (this also may cause tension and rigid tone).   This leads to listening for only one note, or a couple of notes over the rest, when the real goal is hearing the entire chord with ringing tone with desired voice distribution.

What to listen for:

Make sure you are truly understanding all of the intervals that are involved.  Can you play the entire chord and sing each interval?  Can you play the entire chord and pick out of the resonance each interval?  Can you play the entire chord and hear each note? (make sure you are relaxing after each attack and while you are holding the chord, getting your hand and fingers used to each individual shape).

After perfecting this, make sure you are hearing the entire chord when you play it, as distinct sounds giving an overall affect.

When you can do this, pick out (by ear) of the overall sound the note you wish to emphasize, without deafening to the rest of the notes (they are still very important).

Now this alone should help A LOT, but there are a few physical things you can do to further help in reaching your goal.

Physical "tricks":

1.  Take the problem chords and break them up into two hands with the notes desired for emphasis in one hand, and the rest in the other.  Play with two hands exactly what you want to hear, and memorize that sound (again training the ear).  Aim to reproduce this sound with one hand only.

2.  When everything is back in one hand, only play the notes of desired emphasis, simply letting your fingers loosely fall on the tops of the keys of the other notes of the chord w/o making them sound.  Make sure you are playing the emphasized notes with the desired sound, and then add the other notes back into the mix (experiment with maintaining the note of emphasis and adding the other notes one by one, still maintaining the desired sound).

The key to success is to be always listening for the successful sounds you have produced with the crictical listening you did in setting up the chord.

I hope this is of help  

m1469

[mosis]

hum. I am familiar with the problem of making quiet chords sound nice...
I apologise for having to ask a rather elementary question: what is meant here by evenness of chords?
a) Simultaneity of the notes in one chord? b) Even volume of notes in one chord (apart from the emphasised note)? c) Same volume from chord to chord?d) something else?

When I say that I am having difficulties in accomplishing the evenness of chords, I am referring to the simultaneous sounding of every note in the chord. I am not worrying about even volume of notes in a chord, as (for the most part) I am trying to voice a note of the melody in the chord. The same volume from chord to chord is also not so much a problem unless the chords are repeated, as in the Grave section of the Pathetique and other similar chordal accompaniments.

I wonder what Bernhard and Chang have to say on this...

[chopiabin]

I know that this used to be incredibly difficult for me, and I still think that it is one of the harder parts of piano technique. You really just have to practice alot by putting more pressure on the melody note. That's really the only way I was able to overcome that difficulty. It's also hard to start voicing if you aren't too familiar with the piece.

In situations with lots of fast chords that need to be voiced (Chopin's c minor nocturne op.48), you can almost leave out some of the inner voices. When my teacher met Horowitz, he asked him about voicing op.48, and Horowitz admitted to dropping some of the inner notes in order to bring out the melody. Apparently, my teacher was a bit appalled that such a master pianist would leave out notes (he was fairly young and naive), and Horowitz replies with "How else do you keep 30 or 40 concertos memorized?"

[maxy]

Attack speed will be the difference.
You don't want to use weight on soft chords.
The attack speed of the notes you want to bring out should be faster.

[Chuckie]

Maxy is right, and you may also need to work on finger independence. Alot of times the voicing is done with the 4th and 5th fingers--the two weakest fingers--and so strengthening them is key.

Also, what Chopiabin said is true: If you mentally picture putting more weight on one note, you will play it at a faster speed (making it louder). Try rotating your wrist on each chord in the C# minor prelude and in the Pathetique sonata. This helps make the chords more even at the same time as you're bringing out the melody (voicing).

[xvimbi]

Alot of times the voicing is done with the 4th and 5th fingers--the two weakest fingers--and so strengthening them is key.

One could get into heated debates about this. I personally don't believe in the 4th and 5th finger weakness. Many aspiring pianists don't have any problems with strength. The 5th finger, in fact, is often very strong. Rather, the problem lies in the ability to coordinate those fingers.

[mosis]

Yesterday I had my piano lesson, and my teacher showed me something interesting. He said that as I'm going into the soft chords, I should lower my wrist into the chord (but keep my fingers curled). This way, I get an extremely quiet and even chord with a nice, soft tone.

On top of all this, he told me that I should sit into my hips and gently rise with the melody so that I'm using more of my body weight to power the chords, as opposed to my fingers. It's working quite well.

Thoughts?

[scarbo87]

Yes, this indeed is a problem for us all....
Whenever I tape record myself I am shocked as to how good I come off in the virtuoso passages and how, sometimes, harsh
I come off in the lyrical, chordal passages.

First of all, I want to say that a good piano can do about 50% of the job. In today's America we are lucky that most of the pianos we play concerts and have auditions on are pretty good, and good piano's have good responses, which can help you achieve your desired sound easier.

Seondly, I really Agree with the Xvimib said:When you attempt to play soft and even, your hand gets more rigid than ever, so you need to learn how to use this rigidy, instead of let it hurt you. Something that a very renowned teacher once told me(and i'm sure is very common) really helped me :
   In lyrical passages, with chordal voicing, or even in
simple melodic lines, whenever you attack, your wrist should not just fall in one place....as soon as you hit a note,your wrist should kind of rotate or swurve around. This way, your attack will not be so harsh , but rather the rotation of the wrist will kind of serve as a shock absorber of the attack, making it ring more and bang less.So just try to apply this to the top voices of all your chords....usually you use your
5th finger for those.
   Lastly, simply repetition can get a job done. Just keep practicing the chord passage over and over and each time LISTEN as much as you can to voicing and adjust you fingers to suit your ear. Hope this helps
  Scarbo