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Topic: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes  (Read 25783 times)

Offline sonoferasmus

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Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
on: May 28, 2012, 03:12:53 PM
How would you rank from from least to most difficult the 12 Debussy etudes from the Pour le Piano series? Not necessarily comparing them to other etudes either. Feel free to post your thoughts.  I'm trying to select one to go along with my audition repertoire:

I'm almost finished with Chopin 10/2 and feel like the Debussy ones would add a different dimension to the list.

Any thoughts?

Thanks - Sarah - Age 16.

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 06:32:30 PM
Hi Sarah! How nice to see that you´re planning to learn Debussy etudes. I personally consider them way underrated - with one of my former teachers, we did the whole set of etudes with my piano class, and it was really wonderful to get to hear them as a whole. Though a tiny bit terrifying to just go on stage and play for a couple of minutes and then go off again, until it was your turn again! So far I have played four of them, so perhaps I could start off with commenting those. While none of the etudes are really comparable to the great difficulties found in Chopin´s studies (which after all focus much more on stamina, comparing to the Debussy), they are still tricky in other regards.

Nr. 1

Perhaps one of the more instantly approachable etudes, and one that I think goes well with the audience - the opening is likely to make anyone who hasn´t heard the piece before laugh, which I´ve seen happen in concert. As an etude, it will not cause a lot of problems for someone who has acquired a decent 5-finger technique, I can only think of one or two "tricky" spots. HOWEVER, maintaining momentum throughout this rather capricious etude can be difficult. I like how Debussy manages to make such beautiful things out of dull figurations!

Nr. 5

While, I haven´t actually performed this in concert, I´ve worked on it and played it in masterclass. Considering it is only about 2 minutes long, it is a rather taxing piece! It is great fun to play though, it´s one of my favourite etudes. As always in Debussy, it is important to listen to your sound and how the sonorities are projected. The voicing of the octaves needs attention - for example, in one spot it is really the thumb rather than the outer 4th and 5th fingers that should be brought out (see the "tres egalement rythme, sans presser" section where there is a triplet movement alternating between the left and right hand. The strepitoso octaves can be rather demanding, depending on your abilities. It´s important to have some rhythmic freedom and flexibility in this piece - in the masterclass I played it in, the teacher thought I played it too much as though it was Schumann or something and wanted more strictness. However, I do consider it important to have certain rhythmic inflections.


Pour les notes repetees

Again, very fun piece to work on, rather similar to the 2nd movement of the violin sonata and some sections of the cello sonata (written around the time of the etudes). Overall, it is not one of the most difficult etudes, but the section with repeated sixteenth-triplets takes time to master. It might be that you have to slow down a bit here to maintain clarity...


Pour les accords

It took me a while to start liking this one, it was the first etude that I learned. Once you have mastered the very tricky and irregular skips (Debussy referred to one place of the etudes as pure "Swedish gymnastics" - he probably meant this piece), the jumps in Petrushka will seem much more manageable! It helps for the coordination to realize that while both hands do the same movement, the left hand actually has much wider jumps than the right. I recommend focusing on the left hand. I used to practice this in the dark at very very slow tempo....work on this a lot if you want to perform it!!!

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
as for the others, I´ll get back to you as I was planning on learning a few more etudes now. Out of those I haven´t played, I´d say the most interesting ones are: 2, 3, 7 and 10. 10 Might be one of the easier ones, which might go for nr 11 as well. The etudes in double-notes are overall quite demanding. That´s as much as I can say so far about those, having looked through them a bit but not more :)

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 07:03:59 PM
i just bought these and am working out fingerings and sections here and there on no. 1, they are all incredible in their own light, i have read that the ones on the back end tend to be very demanding for most, but i don't know that a ranking could be realistically done. the above write up in really great and probably as close as can be written on them. really thanks for that!

as for info on each one, here is was i used to read up on them before deciding to by the scores for the two sets i did bold the remarks on the last one, since it more than hints at it's difficulty. 

i have a fantastic recording of the complete set by one of my favorite pianists if you're interested i can pm you a download link from my account (it is all one large audio file, i have not yet gone in and edited to break up one track per etude so it is too large to post here)

Book 1
 Early in 1915, disheartened by the menace of World War I and gravely ill with cancer, Claude Debussy (1862-1918) nevertheless managed to compose. The fruits of his labors, twelve Études (study pieces or exercises), would be his last important works for solo piano, and would represent a distillation of the composer's musical legacy. It was appropriate for Debussy—the most original composer for the piano since Franz Liszt—to join the ranks of étude composers. Equally fitting was his dedication of his two volumes to Frederick Chopin, noting that the serious nature of the exercises was offset by a charm reminiscent of the earlier master.
 
The Études are divided into two books, each different in conception. Book 1 is devoted to exploring the technical problems and musical possibilities iherent in different intervals (thirds, sixths, etc.), while Book 2 engages in the exploration of musical syntax and style. In all, the Études are witty, challenging, and inspired. Though academic in nature, and perhaps less easily digested than other of Debussy's works, they fall closely on the heels of his popular Préludes and Images, and reflect the same aesthetic concerns: complex harmonies, fragmented melodic lines, and rich, colorful textures.
 
Book One:

"Pour les 'cinq doigts'-d'apres Monsieur Czerny" (For Five Fingers-after Mr. Czerny) is inspired by the five-finger exercises of Carl Czerny. Debussy pantomimes the pedantic style of Czerny's exercises by placing typical figurations and passages in grotesque juxtaposition and introducing bizarre modulations.
 
"Pour les Tierces" (For Thirds) presents an extraordinary variety of patterns in parallel thirds, excepting those already encountered in "Tièrces alternées" from the second book of Préludes.
 
"Pour les Quartes" (For Fourths) exercises the pianists ability in parallel fourths. Almost needless to say, quartal harmony abounds, making this a étude more tonally adventurous than many of the others.
 
"Pour les Sixtes" (For Sixths) is a slow and meditative work with two fast interludes, and one forte interruption.
 
"Pour les Octaves" (For Octaves) combines chromaticism, whole-tone harmonies and complex syncopation. Probably the most brilliant étude of both books, it is equally difficult to play.
 
"Pour les huit doigts" (For Eight Fingers) is meant to be performed (the composer's suggestion) without the use of the thumbs, due to the division of the figuration into four-note scale patterns. It finds humor in its rigid insistence on four-note groupings and sudden ending.
 
Book Two:

"Pour les degrés chromatiques" (For Chromatic Intervals), is an essay in the use of the chromatic scale, both compositionally and technically.
 
"Pour les agréments" (For Ornaments) is one of the most fiendishly difficult works in the repertoire. The entire fabric of the music is created by juxtaposing musical embellishments, arpeggiations, and miniature cadenza-like passages.
 
"Pour les notes répétées" (For Repeated Notes) requires a performer able to execute repeated tones with great rapidity while still maintaining the piece's humorous, scherzando atmosphere. One wry melodic fragment balances the otherwise relentlessly staccato texture.
 
"Pour les sonorités opposées" (For Opposing Sonorities) emphasizes the kind of multiple-layered textures found earlier in the second set of Images and many of the préludes.
 
"Pour les arpéges composés" (For Composed, or Written-out, Arpeggios), easily the best-known of all the études, redefines the arpeggio to include a variety of non-harmonic tones (such as the added second or the added ninth).
 
"Pour les accords" (For Chords), is probably the nearest thing to a Romantic virtuoso piece that Debussy ever produced. Mammoth in conception and brutally difficult, this étude juxtaposes relentless perpetual motion with an almost uncomfortably still middle section. A truncated reprise precedes a driving conclusion that puts even the most skilled performer to a grueling test, both technically and interpretively.

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 07:21:22 PM
"Pour les accords" (For Chords) (...)puts even the most skilled performer to a grueling test, both technically and interpretively.
Indeed so. I don´t know how much I worked until those skips started feeling somewhat natural - here´s my own most recent performance attempt of this "grueling test":

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 01:32:25 PM
Indeed so. I don´t know how much I worked until those skips started feeling somewhat natural - here´s my own most recent performance attempt of this "grueling test":


wow!! :o (in a good way, these etudes are tremendously difficult to approach musically, you managed to let something silly like a technical monster not get in the way of your pulling something expressive and beautiful out of it)

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 10:03:10 PM
thank you, that was nice to hear - many hours of hard work are behind that piece!

Offline sonoferasmus

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 10:34:32 PM
fnork:  Have you played the Octaves?  I think that my piano teacher wants me to get more work in on octaves, as I'm doing Liszt also.  Thanks.

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #8 on: May 30, 2012, 10:19:43 AM
Yes, I played the octave etude and am planning to work on it again now - I commented it above as well, see my comment regarding study nr 5 :)
While it is a GREAT study for all sorts of octave playing, it perhaps isnt the most useful thing to start with if you are just in need of improving octave playing. The chopin study or some works of liszt might be more useful in that context.

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 08:53:57 AM
Having learned all but 3 of the etudes by now, I'll try to come with some more helpful comments about the ones I hadn't learned when I wrote here the last time.


Nr. 2 - Thirds

For me, one of the studies from book 1 that took the most time to learn thoroughly. First of all, it should not be played too fast, it is marked sostenuto and legato (please avoid Uchida's recording of this particular etude), and while an etude in thirds immediately makes you think of Chopin's op. 25 nr 6, this one requires a different approach altogether. In Chopin, because of the fast tempo, the overall approach is to play the top voice of the thirds legato, the lower less legato, almost staccato even. The slower tempo of the Debussy study, however, suggests that you indeed must do your best, even when it is not physically possible, to connect BOTH voices. For any pianist, working on finding the best fingerings is going to take time - I figured out many things myself, but also had a look at various editions for suggestions. Every single bar presents different challenges and many variants on fingerings. And ultimately, you have to remember that it should be a beautiful piece of flowing music even though, in a Chopinian fashion, the piece hardly ever breaks the flow of steady 16th-notes. It easily starts to sound too much like an etude, and that's not what we want here, ever. Ultimately, it's an incredible piece of music and truly rewarding to work on.

Nr. 3 - Fourths

This is a very peculiar piece, mixing all sorts of Debussian elements. As a pianist I knew who actually performed the complete piano works by Debussy, it is a bit difficult to adjust to playing fourths after a study in thirds! In any case, most of this etude presents the same difficulties that we find in most of Debussy's piano music - having an ear for colour, pedaling, and touch, is more important than anything else, and most of this etude is really not that hard to play. The fourth-runs in the stretto section and in the accelerando part later on in the piece might take a while to master. Yet another very rewarding etude to learn! Memorization might take a little while, but fingering is not nearly as much of a problem here comparing to the previous etude.


Nr. 4 - Sixths

One of the etudes I first found the least interesting, but eventually, I found myself at home with this piece. It is partly a study in strongly connected legato sixths, and finding the most suitable fingering is very important - again, connect both voices as much as possible. Depending on how slow you want it to be, you might be able to change fingers on both sixths going from one note to the next - that gives a smooth legato in my opinion. It is also partly a study in playing sixths from the wrist. Once you've made your way through the faster sections, written down fingerings, it is all quite easy to play actually. Again, listening to the sound quality is very important, and to differentiate between different voices, especially towards the end.


Nr. 6 - For the 8 fingers

Still a work in progress for me - a fun piece to play and to listen to, but rather challenging in its demand for clarity and speed. Like my teacher said - one should STRIVE for clarity, but in the required tempo, it WILL sound somewhat unclear no matter how you play it. Also, as most who have looked into the etudes knows - very few actually play the entire piece with 8 fingers. It works about 70-80% of the time, but in several places you can arrange things differently for comfort and clarity.



Nr. 10 - Opposing sonorities

One of the most beautiful etudes, and in addition, one of the easiest to learn and play. The main challenge lies in using different touch for different registers. One should also think about if Debussy would have taken advantage of the middle pedal in a piece like this? Or should it be played according to what Debussy knew? Just look at the opening of this piece - by using the middle pedal for the top notes, you could actually release the later notes when they are supposed to be released, rather than holding them with pedal. To some, this sounds dry and ugly...but maybe it is worth having in mind, when studying this piece. And some of the other etudes for that matter, I use the middle pedal in the thirds study, possibly in the fourths study in a place or two as well.



Alright, will write about the 3 remaining etudes once I have learned them!!! :D

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 09:02:48 AM
Also, while I maybe shouldn't do this already, I've divided the etudes in three levels of difficulty, just to give an idea. And I hope that everyone understands that the "easy" category isn't necessarily THAT easy. This is how I personally feel, about what have taken the most work and what has taken the least work to perfect. I'm including the studies I haven't yet learned entirely - I'm overly familiar with them already however, have read them through etc, and feel confident enough about categorizing them.


Easy:

1, 3, 4, 10

Medium:

6, 7, 9, 11

Difficult:

2, 5, 8, 12

Offline fftransform

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #11 on: August 08, 2012, 09:25:52 AM
I have not played all of the etudes (actually, I have only played four of them), but if I was going to rank them in order of pure physical-technical difficulty, I would probably rate them (from easiest to hardest):

10*, 4, 2, 6, 8, ER*, 1, 11*, 3, 9*, 7*, 5, 12

Asterisked ones are the ones that I've played.  The ones that I typically hear being called the hardest are 7 and 12.  8 is sort of hard to place, for me; I don't stand by the placement of 8 just from looking at the scores.  But why does it matter?  No. 10 is, of course, the most beautiful ;D  IMO the best thing he wrote, along with Images II.

ER is the Etude Retrouvee:




As you can see, Fnork and I are going to disagree on Nos. 2, 3 and 8, but otherwise the lists are fairly similar.  Where No. 2 goes is just going to depend on how strong your thirds are, plain and simple.  Good 3rds, easy.  Bad at 3rds, hard.  For No. 8, it's fairly slow, but also full of little caveats and appoggiaturi; I think your sight-reading skills will make a big determination in how quickly/easily you can pick No. 8 up.

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 02:38:54 AM
Learn the thirds study and let me know if you think it's the 3rd easiest etude from this set. It's not ONLY about being "good" or "bad" at playing thirds, as I tried to point out. I don't know what the 1st is doing in the very middle either, it's certainly one of the most approachable etudes and one that you hear the most often played by students everywhere. (ER is MUCH harder, by comparison)

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #13 on: August 09, 2012, 04:21:56 AM
Also, I don't know why 7 would be considered one of the hardest (I do agree about 12 though...very difficult) - except for a few nasty spots around the last 3 pages or so, most of the chromatic stuff is actually very straight-forward.

Offline fftransform

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #14 on: August 09, 2012, 06:33:21 AM
Learn the thirds study and let me know if you think it's the 3rd easiest etude from this set. It's not ONLY about being "good" or "bad" at playing thirds, as I tried to point out. I don't know what the 1st is doing in the very middle either, it's certainly one of the most approachable etudes and one that you hear the most often played by students everywhere. (ER is MUCH harder, by comparison)

I actually printed it off and was trying to sight-read it today, because you ranked it so highly.  I honestly don't know what you're talking about; there are very few places where the fingering is not straight-forward.  If your main issue is voicing, then that is not germane to my post; I specified that I was not referring to voicing and phrasing, only the physical aspects of the pieces.  If I wasn't, I would certainly not list No. 10 as being the easiest.

I have never even messed around with No. 1 (1 and 12 are my least-favorite ones); I am only going off of the score.  Some of the extended LH figures look very exhausting to me, but like I said, I haven't tried it.  Regarding No. 7, I think it's going to depend on the tempo one wants to play it at.  I've heard performances clocking in at 2'30", and performances clocking in at 1'40".  That's going to make an enormous difference.  Etude Retrouvee is fairly easy, IMO; only some spots for the LH are note-worthy, and they are primarily few and far between.

Why do you think that No. 3 is so easy?  You believe that it is easier to master those descending 4th figures than the figures in No. 6?

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 02:24:01 AM
Of course, all of this is going to be very subjective, but let me just point out that even the "easy" category is by no means easy by any normal demands, similarly to when we divide pieces like Chopin etudes in categories like that. I'm merely giving my own opinion having had 9 of the studies at performance standard (3 out of those I have not yet memorized or performed outside of piano lessons), and the grading wasn't only based on technical demands but on every aspect of learning and studying these to performance standard. In fact I played the fourths for my teacher having worked on it for no more than a few days. Most of the fingerings are straight-forward, and that makes a great deal of difference - and the descending figures get into your fingers after some work. If you think there are very few places where the fingering is not straight-forward - good for you! A friend of mine who did the complete Debussy piano works tried to work out good fingerings for 3-4 days on that piece, and I spent more time than that trying to get the piece to an acceptable masterclass performance standard. If you think it is fine not to do legato with one of the voices, use the thumb on consecutive notes etc, fine, fingering is not going to be a big issue. But if you aim for as much legato as possible, doing your best to maintain strict legato as much as possible, you will have to consider SEVERAL options (one of the editions up on imslp.org presents two options for fingerings for some passages, and in many cases I didn't even use either of those options..).

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 02:46:27 AM
Then again, dividing them into 3 different categories doesn't mean there are layers of difficulties. So, the 2nd is the "easiest" of the difficult studies, and the 3rd could be seen as the most "difficult" of the easy ones. But then again, if you could pull off 1, 4 and 10, then doing nr 3 isn't a big stretch.

Offline mussorgsky

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #17 on: December 28, 2012, 06:26:50 PM
Difficulty is a different aspect in every pianist's mind. For one the most difficult etude, contrary to all lists, may be no.1, for another no.7. For me the easiest is no.5, because I'm better in rapid octaves than in fast scale-like runs over the keyboard.
Now learning:
Mozart sonata no.11 in A major; Fantasy no.3 in D.
Mussorgsky - Pictures from an exhibition.
Bartok - Dances in Bulgarian rhytm.


https://www.emanuilivanovpianist.blogspot.com

Offline mussorgsky

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #18 on: December 29, 2012, 10:06:42 AM
If you want, try to learn the etude (or etudes) which is your favourite. This is also for all other classical works. Try to learn your favourites and ignore the difficulty. It always works with me. (When I was 11 years old, my teacher and my parents were thinking that the Sonata Pathetique by Beethoven is too difficult for me, but I learnt the text on my own for a month or so).  :)
Now learning:
Mozart sonata no.11 in A major; Fantasy no.3 in D.
Mussorgsky - Pictures from an exhibition.
Bartok - Dances in Bulgarian rhytm.


https://www.emanuilivanovpianist.blogspot.com

Offline fnork

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Re: Rank Difficulty of Debussy Etudes
Reply #19 on: August 19, 2013, 11:53:41 PM
Whether it's wise to bump this thread or not, I don't know, but...I'm about to try to finish this set off and learn the few etudes I still haven't worked on. Eventually, I hope to write down my thoughts on the remaining ones here, too! Pour les degrees chromatiques is by no means easy, but for most part it's a manageable etude. Then there are a few sections that need serious practicing. Pour les agrements is similar somehow - many sections require finely balanced chords etc without offering any REAL technical difficulties, but then...some sections just pop out from nowhere and cause serious problems. Nr 11 looks very manageable so far.
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

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