Bartok etudes?

[fnork]

Anyone here got experience playing or working on these? Iīve only played the 2nd up to performance standard and have worked through most of the 1st, which really puts my hands to a big test. Impossible to work on this piece for long periods of time for me, it stretches the hand terribly. The 3rd is a really cool piece but looks absolutely frightening.Itīs a pity this opus seems out of reach for me, it seems like one of Bartokīs best solo piano works. Perhaps Iīll just stick to playing the piano sonata instead...

[p2u_]

Anyone here got experience playing or working on these? Iīve only played the 2nd up to performance standard and have worked through most of the 1st, which really puts my hands to a big test. Impossible to work on this piece for long periods of time for me, it stretches the hand terribly.

Although I don't really like Bartok very much, I've cracked his first etude successfully, mainly to help others. It's not really easy, but there should be NOTHING there to tire of/relax from, otherwise it's just not your piece. It's not an athletic task; you should think really hard and find out what motion is needed per every figure before you even start moving. It's a game of rotation, weird axes, etc., not sheer physical strength. Also: do not forget to breathe musically; Bartok gives ample opportunity for that if you see it. I hope you will find the following link with background info useful: https://chapters.scarecrowpress.com/08/108/0810843013ch3.html
And of course, you are familiar with the excellent performance by Zoltan Kocsis to get inspiration on your way to mastering this:

Good luck!

Paul

[fnork]

wow, that was an extremely useful link, thanks a lot! I think I know what you are talking about - I guess Iīd manage to play shorter sections of the first etude as it is, but perhaps the main problem is coordinating the whole damn thing - as you say, itīs not that much a question of pure physical strength. Though my thumbs (left hand especially) tend to get tired after too much work on this. Was the link you provided written by yourself...? I have to read the whole thing, great stuff there.

Iīm not a huge fan of Kocscis recording - of course he nails them very well. I got some live recordings from Mei-ting sun https://www.meiting.com/) that I much prefer, however. Hereīs my own attempt at nr 2 by the way - from a competition recording including works by Szymanowski, Debussy and Chopin in addition to Bartok.

[p2u_]

Was the link you provided written by yourself...?

No, it's a case study (Chapter 3 called "Bravura, Virtuosity, and Pianism") by Barbara Nissman, who studied with Bartok's pupil Gyorgy Sandor. Have a look in her "books and publications" section at barbaranissman.com to get the details about "Bartók and the Piano: A Performer's View".
The book comes with a very useful CD (featuring among others the "Example" links 3.1 through 3.33 in the text).
P.S.: You may want to save the text of the page I gave you the link to, because I suspect it may disappear soon; I think I was not supposed to give you this. It's on her publisher's site and I got their by accident through a Google search. Sometimes Google gives access to forbidden territory because it works like a kind of proxy, bypassing user restrictions set on the server.

Hereīs my own attempt at nr 2 by the way - from a competition recording including works by Szymanowski, Debussy and Chopin in addition to Bartok.

youtube.com/watch?v=vPCqsfDQXho

Yes, I think I've heard that one before from the Helmi Vesa piano competition. Very nice playing. I can feel you like the composer's works a lot more than I do.
P.S.: As a matter of fact, the etudes from forementioned composers are also required for the first round of the Queen Elisabeth Competition in Brussels. Just in case.

Paul

[fnork]

Thanks for the info - I managed to get links to the 1st and 2nd chapters of that book through google as well (but not the other ones), very useful stuff to read! Seems like an interesting book (and pianist, Barbara I mean....). And thanks for the nice comment on the etude, I should pick it up again - of course, it works as a solo piece, but damn, it would be nice to play these as a set, if I only would manage. I forgot what famous pianist who said it in David Dubalīs book, but he said that the 2nd concerto even seemed easy/easier once he had mastered these etudes.
Also, haha, are you suggesting I should go to the QE competition just because I got through the easiest of the Bartok etudes? 

[p2u_]

Also, haha, are you suggesting I should go to the QE competition just because I got through the easiest of the Bartok etudes? 

Well, the competition in Brussels is a bit particular; it's really about music. Nobody in the jury will flunk you because you picked the easiest if you play as you play; besides, you have already mastered the notoriously difficult Debussy Chords etude to make up for that incredibly easy second of Bartok. Haha...

Paul

[fnork]

Itīs really about music? I wonder, I wonder, having listened to an interview with the winner of this years edition, Andrey Baranov, and his not-so-profound ideas of music making. (https://www.cobra.be/cm/cobra/cobra-mediaplayer/redactietips-cobra/kew2012/1.1309477) I didnīt follow the competition much this time, though. The previous piano winner is a superb pianist, of course.

[p2u_]

Itīs really about music? I wonder, I wonder, having listened to an interview with the winner of this years edition, Andrey Baranov, and his not-so-profound ideas of music making.

What did you expect? Part is the anchorman's fault, because the questions are rather superficial. Even in Dutch (Flemish in Belgium) it is presented on TV in a "music-for-the-millions" style. Besides, it had been very hot in the hall all day, and it's already heavy to compete there, even if the temperature is reasonable. A bit inhuman to take an interview with the laureates immediately after such a marathon; the poor man was half dead... It is indeed a competition in music-making, not in empty virtuosity.

Paul

[fnork]

I didn't follow the competition closely as I said, but what I heard of Baranov's playing struck me as very in-the-middle-of-the-road with nothing special to say, while several other candidates to me seemed like much more interesting musicians. From what I was told, he has in one way or another studied with like half of the jury members, btw.

[fftransform]

Although I don't really like Bartok very much, I've cracked his first etude successfully, mainly to help others. It's not really easy, but there should be NOTHING there to tire of/relax from, otherwise it's just not your piece. It's not an athletic task; you should think really hard and find out what motion is needed per every figure before you even start moving. It's a game of rotation, weird axes, etc., not sheer physical strength.

So what you're saying is that you actually haven't played the piece?  This description is ass-backwards.


Anyway, to the original poster: I found #1 to be the most difficult because my hands are just slightly too small for the ostinati in the diminished 10ths to be comfortable; for me, they are the most difficult part of the piece.  I don't know what your span is, though.  But I'm also left-handed, so #3 (which most consider to be the most difficult) was not as difficult for me as maybe it should have been.  If you can play #2 I don't think #3 is beyond your reach, but it will take a bit more time; I found it a lot harder to memorize.  But it has been something like 8 years since I first learned the pieces, so I can't really recall much else.

[p2u_]

So what you're saying is that you actually haven't played the piece?  This description is ass-backwards.

What I'm saying is that I "repaired" a pianist who ruined his arms on this piece. After he got back on track, we examined the piece together and established the mechanics, part of which is described in the link I gave earlier. The topic starter complained:

Impossible to work on this piece for long periods of time for me, it stretches the hand terribly.

I claimed there are solutions in the etude that do not assume you have abnormally big hands. Even with average hands (not too small) one should be able to play it without excessive stretching and without tiring the arms/hands, so the topic-starter is probably doing something wrong. Now, if you think this is "ass-backwards" (c), then maybe you could suggest something that really works for him? Since the PO really seems to like this music, "not playing it" doesn't sound like the best option.
P.S.: Bartók did not have particularly large hands (he could hardly reach a tenth), and yet managed to play this etude without undue difficulty. From what I know, he intended it to be a study in rotation technique, and NOT a stretching exercise.

Paul