Octaves at 32nd note speeds?

[cuberdrift]

I've read a story about Liszt and a pianist named Alexander Dreyshock. Apparently the latter played the Rev. Etude in octaves (the left hand), and Liszt responded by playing the Right Hand of Chopin's Etude Op. 25 no. 2 in octaves as well.

This is the first story I've heard about pianists doing impossible feats. Is that even humanly possible?  I never thought octaves could be done at those speeds.

Best regards,
cuberdrift

[thalbergmad]

It is well documented that Dreyschock could play the left hand part of the 25/12 in octaves at the correct tempo.

What is not generally known is that he spent years reading pianoscience blogs and had the loosest wrist in Europe.

Thal

[retrouvailles]

had the loosest wrist in Europe.

Is that something one really wants to be known for? Too much information.

[cuberdrift]

It is well documented that Dreyschock could play the left hand part of the 25/12 in octaves at the correct tempo.

What is not generally known is that he spent years reading pianoscience blogs and had the loosest wrist in Europe.

Thal

So it's doable.

Why hasn't anyone (or most, at least) been able to do this today? I mean I bet not even Cziffra or Hamelin could play octaves that fast. 

[adari]

So it's doable.

Why hasn't anyone (or most, at least) been able to do this today? I mean I bet not even Cziffra or Hamelin could play octaves that fast. 

Skip to 11:28:

[fftransform]

Very little is impossible:

[p2u_]

I've read a story about Liszt and a pianist named Alexander Dreyshock. Apparently the latter played the Rev. Etude in octaves (the left hand), and Liszt responded by playing the Right Hand of Chopin's Etude Op. 25 no. 2 in octaves as well.

Listen to Lazar Berman playing Liszt's "Orage" (Thunderstorm) live in Milan 1976. The left hand is in many places a quote from that same Revolutionary etude and the tempo comes close. The key is also c minor.
P.S.: He gave this as an encore after he had just played Rachmaninov's 6 Moments Musicaux and Liszt's 12 Transcendental Etudes, probably to "warm up" for this one.
A devil in disguise, very much a reincarnation of Mr. Dreyshock and even more, because the latter could not do anything else but octaves...

Paul

[thalbergmad]

A devil in disguise, very much a reincarnation of Mr. Dreyshock and even more, because the latter could not do anything else but octaves...

Please direct me to Dreyschock's recordings, I was not aware of this.

The wanker Schumann accused him of being a "mechanicus", but there spoketh a man who had ruined his chances of being a pianist and was probably jealous.

A short study of Dreyschock's works indicates that he must have had some "touch", but he will forever be tainted by his rather incredible feat.

Thal

[p2u_]

Please direct me to Dreyschock's recordings, I was not aware of this.

I think I read somewhere that Liszt's octave answer to Dreyschock's showpiece was to show the man his place as a mere empty virtuoso, who repeated the trick at EVERY concert. Have to check that...

The wanker Schumann

Ah... Is that how he ruined his right hand? Bad boy, bad boy...

Paul

[thalbergmad]

Ah... Is that how he ruined his right hand? Bad boy, bad boy...

Indeed, his biographers have got it all wrong.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I think I read somewhere that Liszt's octave answer to Dreyschock's showpiece was to show the man his place as a mere empty virtuoso, who repeated the trick at EVERY concert.

Well, if I could play the Revolutionary in octaves, I would probably repeat the trick at the end of every concert.

You can bore an audience to death for hours, but it is possible to redeem yourself if you send them home with a bang.

Thal

[p2u_]

Schumann accused him of being a "mechanicus", but there spoketh a man who had ruined his chances of being a pianist and was probably jealous.

The trouble with history is always that the accounts tend to be contradictory; one cannot be sure as to what to believe. I'll give you a link where it says that it was actually Hans von Bülow (who supposedly couldn't compete with Dreyschock's success) who called Dreyschock an "homme-machine (a mechanical machine), the personification of lack of genius, with the exterior of a clown." Schumann may have agreed, of course, and I think the hint for Dreyschock from the king of pianists, Franz Liszt, to leave town and show his silly tricks elsewhere has a certain credibility around it.
https://www.left-hand-brofeldt.dk/Catalogue_d.htm
[A catalogue of more than 700 composers who wrote piano music for the left hand alone; this page is on "D"]

Paul

[thalbergmad]

What a splendid link, thanks for that. I often play left hand only pieces as I lift pints with my right.

It would be a shame if Dreyschock was remembered only for this extraordinary feat. I find some of his compositions to be charming albeit lacking the craft of some of his contemporaries.

His Concert Piece Op.27 is my favourite short work for piano and orchestra. Full of fireworks, haunting cantabile themes and melodically memorable. Can't play the damned thing though.

Thal

[cuberdrift]

Skip to 11:28:

'

Those are interlocking octaves, that's why it sounds so fast. Quite like Cziffra.

Listen to Lazar Berman playing Liszt's "Orage" (Thunderstorm) live in Milan 1976. The left hand is in many places a quote from that same Revolutionary etude and the tempo comes close.

Yes, very fast, but not exactly Rev-speed. It's still far from 32nd notes but faster than 16th notes.

[p2u_]

Yes, very fast, but not exactly Rev-speed. It's still far from 32nd notes but faster than 16th notes.

16th notes and 32nd notes are relative; it's the beat that counts. What is exactly "Rev-speed" to you? The revolutionary etude left hand part is written in 16th notes (semiquavers), not in 32nd notes (demisemiquavers) and is on average executed around quarter note/crotchet = 126/132, not the 160 indicated. That is if you want a result that is musically still somehow interesting. Berman is close to that, so one can safely say that the Revolutionary in Dreyschock's version must have sounded similar. 160, 4 movements per beat coming from one playing unit (the wrist or arm), seems completely impossible in octaves. Humans are not kolibris, you know...

Paul

[cuberdrift]

16th notes and 32nd notes are relative; it's the beat that counts. What is exactly "Rev-speed" to you? The revolutionary etude left hand part is written in 16th notes (semiquavers), not in 32nd notes (demisemiquavers) and is on average executed around quarter note/crotchet = 126/132, not the 160 indicated. That is if you want a result that is musically still somehow interesting. Berman is close to that, so one can safely say that the Revolutionary in Dreyschock's version must have sounded similar. 160, 4 movements per beat coming from one playing unit (the wrist or arm), seems completely impossible in octaves. Humans are not kolibris, you know...

Paul

How about Liszt playing Chopin's Op. 25 No. 2 Etude in octaves as a response? Can you hear how FAST Cziffra plays it? Those are nowhere close to even 160.

[p2u_]

How about Liszt playing Chopin's Op. 25 No. 2 Etude in octaves as a response? Can you hear how FAST Cziffra plays it? Those are nowhere close to even 160.

And what is your argument? Please take a look at the tempo indicated by Chopin. It's six notes on the beat, the beat being 112, but Cziffra doesn't even play that fast. Besides, the tempo Cziffra takes is divided over on average 3-4 fingers. Let's say he plays 12 notes a second, then each finger has a load of 3 to 4 movements per second which is well within the limits imposed by nature; not really that fast per finger. But when you play in octaves, the playing unit is either the wrist or the arm alone, which just CANNOT move at such a speed.

P.S.: There are no accounts of Liszt playing that etude up to the speed Cziffra takes. Here is what is says:

At his next Viennese concert, Liszt purled through Chopin's Etude in F minor, Op 25 No 2. After the rapturous applause, he repeated the first bar slowly and tentatively - in octaves. Then again, a little faster. THEN HE REALLY SPED UP and whisked the entire etude into an octave soufflé. Liszt remained King in Vienna[...]

What does the phrase "Then he really sped up" mean? For me it means: then he took it to the limit of humanly possible octave playing, not necessarily to the tempo Cziffra takes with his fingers. If some musicologists mistakenly read from the quote "Liszt played op 25 no 2 a tempo in octaves" and published that as "the truth", then that's their problem.

Paul

[cuberdrift]

Hmm...alright, quite right. Perhaps nobody can really play at actual 32nd note speeds.

I got intrigued by this video lately, it keeps appearing on the sides in Youtube (the advertisement corner thing).

Skip to 1:20.

Many mistakes but otherwise fine octaving. What do you think about it?

[p2u_]

youtube.com/watch?v=dlfz2WBeaHA&t=1m20s

Many mistakes but otherwise fine octaving. What do you think about it?

Sorry to disappoint you, but to me it has the quality of the dancing-ducks-on-a hot-plate kind of "fun" (they seem to dance, but actually they are in pain). First of all, it's not what it says it is. The guy is certainly not the fastest. Besides, I can forgive him his many mistakes, but this is not in good style (a cardinal sin) and it is certainly not what I would call "fine octaving". Hope he won't be needing the help of a hand surgeon soon. I'm afraid any professional watching this will have a feeling he/she is watching one of those webcams of a guy doing it with himself. For the research subject it may be pleasurable and to some extent even useful, but for the audience it's virtually meaningless.

Paul

[cuberdrift]

Sorry to disappoint you, but to me it has the quality of the dancing-ducks-on-a hot-plate kind of "fun" (they seem to dance, but actually they are in pain). First of all, it's not what it says it is. The guy is certainly not the fastest. Besides, I can forgive him his many mistakes, but this is not in good style (a cardinal sin) and it is certainly not what I would call "fine octaving". Hope he won't be needing the help of a hand surgeon soon. I'm afraid any professional watching this will have a feeling he/she is watching one of those webcams of a guy doing it with himself. For the research subject it may be pleasurable and to some extent even useful, but for the audience it's virtually meaningless.

Paul

Why does everyone make comments on his hand? What is wrong with it?

[p2u_]

Why does everyone make comments on his hand? What is wrong with it?

I had trouble picking an example of good octave playing and at the same time not making it another "Who is the best" thread. I don't want to go into science and piano methodology, but please have a look at how Yuja Wang moves when she plays the Cziffra arrangement of the Flight of the Bumble-Bee.
1) the energy is concentrated in the fingertips
2) the arch of the hand (knuckle bridge) does not really collapse
3) the wrists are never locked
4) I guess she can even play it backwards; she's very sure of what comes next.
P.S.: I know this is not the best example, but it wouldn't hurt for the guy in your video to watch it anyway and reconsider his pretentious title "The fastest piano player in the world"...

Paul

[cuberdrift]

I had trouble picking an example of good octave playing and at the same time not making it another "Who is the best" thread. I don't want to go into science and piano methodology, but please have a look at how Yuja Wang moves when she plays the Cziffra arrangement of the Flight of the Bumble-Bee.
1) the energy is concentrated in the fingertips
2) the arch of the hand (knuckle bridge) does not really collapse
3) the wrists are never locked
4) I guess she can even play it backwards; she's very sure of what comes next.
P.S.: I know this is not the best example, but it wouldn't hurt for the guy in your video to watch it anyway and reconsider his pretentious title "The fastest piano player in the world"...

Paul

Sorry, I'm no tech-nerd.

[p2u_]

Sorry, I'm no tech-nerd.

OK. In non-technical words: The notes he misses is not because he doesn't know them, but because of inefficient mechanics in playing. If you use your hands just as inefficiently on the piano as that guy does and you do that regularly (let's say every day), then you are likely to end up at the doctor's.

Paul

[cuberdrift]

OK. In non-technical words: The notes he misses is not because he doesn't know them, but because of inefficient mechanics in playing. If you use your hands just as inefficiently on the piano as that guy does and you do that regularly (let's say every day), then you are likely to end up at the doctor's.

Paul

Thank you for the advice.

Will definitely learn proper octave-playing this time...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Revolutionary etude is in 16th notes, not 32nd notes.

I can't believe that anyone can play at that speed.  That's like playing the last few pages of La Campanella at 200% speed. 

Lol what the heck?!  Just imagine that!  That's like stupid fast!

[philb]

Revolutionary etude is in 16th notes, not 32nd notes.

Well at around 160 per Crotchet, it's nearly equivalent to 32nd's at lesser speeds.