Playing different ryhthms in each hand

[ahswrestler]

Howdy ya'll,

I've been playing piano off and on for about 3 years now, but i've never really been able to learn how to play different rythms in each hand (i've never had instructional piano). Are there any books that would help me in this area? If so where can I find them, and what price range are they?

Thanks

Ian

[Chuckie]

I've been told these few points:

*Use a metronome (most important)
*Focus on the "on" notes
*Play it with someone else, with each of you taking either the left or right hand (bass or treble clef).

Now, this is assuming you know the correct counting in each polyrhythmic case. If you don't, here is an example:

Let's say you're playing the somewhat-well-known piece by Chopin, Nocturne in A-flat major, Opus 32 (hopefully by using a well-known piece you can find a recording of it to hear what it sounds like up to speed and also, the sheetmusic is on sheetmusicarchive.net), and, on the 6th page you come across quintuplets in the right hand (treble) and triplets in the left hand (bass). This is on line four, and is basically 5/4 time over 3/4 time (or however you would like to put it).

Now, in order to figure out when the notes are played, you have to break it down into small enough increments to where you know the instant each note should be played. Since there are 5 notes/beat in the quintuplets, and 3 notes/beat in the triplets, each note represents 1/5 and 1/3 of a count, respectively. Now, using the least common multiple of 5 and 3, which is fifteen, you can come up with more precise counting. Each note in the quintuplets is held for 3/15 of a beat, and each note in the triplets is held for 5/15 of a beat.

This means that you play each note of the quintuplet on 1/15, 4/15, 7/15, 10/15, 13/15.

And for every note in the triplet, you play on 1/15, 6/15, 11/15.

So, here is an outline of things:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
q.......q.......q........q.............q...........
t..............t.................t.....................
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

Hopefully you get the idea. This is a really crazy rhythm. It took me a while to even tap it correctly, and I still can't even play it up to tempo (but then, I haven't really practiced it). It sounds real nice too when played up to speed.

-----------

One thing that I've thought about, and what made me stop trying to play this type of stuff, is that you may need to simply focus on finger independence through technique books (which is what you were asking about). I haven't looked into it a whole lot yet, but I would suggest checking to see if Czerny composed some independence exercises. Also, Philipp composed a couple finger independence books that are essential--not only for stuff like this, but playing in general. One more to try: The harder stuff from Bartok's Mikrokosmos series. Judging from the easier stuff in this series and his other compositions, I would think it would give you some good practice with independence, because both the right and left hand play equal roles.

Anyways, good luck, and hopefully someone else on here knows more, because I would like to know more about it.

[teresa_b]

It's hard to play different rhythms in each hand!  But I have found I can do the "divide it up" thing only as far as 2 against 3, then it's diminishing returns.  For me, trying to play 5 against 3, unless it's only one beat or something, would be infinitely frustrating if I did it by saying 1/15,  3/15, etc.  (How in the world would you ever manage something like the 6 against 11 and the 3 against 7 measures in the coda of Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto???)

I learn the parts hands-separately, making sure the notes on the beats are correct, and the triplets or quintuplets, etc, are even.  THEN I put it together, paying attention to the beat, but not trying to get mathematical exactness.  It works out.  Good luck!

All the best, Teresa

[Chuckie]

Yeah, I think the more skillful you are, the easier it is to do difficult polyrhythms, because each hand can function independently of the other. I also think the more and more you perform with other people, the better you could get at it. Also, when you get them drilled into your head after a while, they just come out naturally, and with increased speed as you get better.

Like Teresa said, my way of figuring the counting would be extremely difficult for 3/4 over 7/4, 6/4 over 11/4, etc. You would have to break up each beat into 66ths for the latter case!

[liszmaninopin]

The other day, I was playing through a passage with a rythm of 16x11.  In this case, what it takes is very careful listening.  When you have it in your mind exactly what you want to hear, try to reproduce it.  One must first practice hands separately until the passage becomes basically automatic for each hand.  Then, combine them, and since your fingers already know the passage, your brain can fully concentrate on coordinating the hands.

[rlefebvr]

Don't be afraid to subdived your mesure and then practise away from the piano.

If you can't tap the rythm away from the piano you sure are not going to be able to do it at the piano.

The problem is getting your brain to properly hear what you want yours  hands to do.