organ vs piano

[henrikhank]

What is the difference between playing organ and piano?

[jcabraham]

Very briefly, the chief difference I find between them (I study both) is that the piano is like a percussion instrument: much attention has to be paid to dynamics. The organ has no dynamics, no piano, no forte. But a note is always "on" when the key is down on the organ, unlike the piano, where the sound dies away after the key is struck. In practice, this means you have to pay much more attention to releasing notes than on the piano. When I play the organ, I feel like I'm playing with the fingers; on the piano I feel like I'm playing with my arms. I'm not sure one can become proficient on both at once: I should probably pick one and stick to it.

[iansinclair]

I agree completely with jcabraham -- pick one and stick with it.  You can always go to the other one -- whichever -- when you retire!

But otherwise I'm not even sure where to begin (first: a bit of credibility here: I was a church organist for almost 50 years before I retired and took up piano...).

Dynamics.  All your dynamics on the organ -- and for a big organ it is a far wider range than the piano or even a symphony orchestra -- are done with changes in registration (that is, which collection of pipe ranks sound when you press a key) and in all modern organs what are called swell shutters (not available in baroque and earlier organs, and should not be used for baroque or earlier music).  Of course, the registration changes tone colour, so you have another variable to contend with (compare that to orchestration for an orchestra).

Fingering: partly because there is no sustain pedal (your feet are busy doing something else) but mostly no real necessity for an even touch, organ fingerings can be and frequently are very different from piano fingerings for the same passage. 

Pedaling: the pedal keyboard is NOT optional.  Yes, there is organ music strictly for two hands -- but it is an aberration.  The pedal keyboard is treated the same as the manuals (the only major difference is that it is almost impossible to have more than two contrapuntal lines at once, or more than a four note chord, in the pedal), and you will need to develop the same speed and dexterity with your feet as you have with your fingers.

Practicing: every organ is different both in terms of registration and feel.  If you plan to play in public, it is a must that your final practices -- say the last five to eight hours of practice -- be on the instrument you are going to perform on.  It is much better if all your practicing is on that instrument, if you can manage it.

Ego: there is no such thing as private practice on an organ.  If you find the thought of passers by on the street -- never mind the music building hallway! -- listening to you butcher some Bach bothers you, you may be very uncomfortable with the organ.

All that said... a classical pipe organ, especially a reasonably large one, is unbelievably flexible and rewarding to play; it is truly "the King of instruments"

[oxy60]

As I read your post I realized that today one could get an electric with AGO specs and use earphones. Granted it won't sound the same but any port in a storm, right?

[iansinclair]

As I read your post I realized that today one could get an electric with AGO specs and use earphones . Granted it won't sound the same but any port in a storm, right?

True enough.  And the modern electronic instruments are pretty darn good.  Gets around the practice in public problem!  (On the other hand, even so... or perhaps especially! -- the first time you really open up a big organ -- literally pulling out all the stops! -- can be quite a shock...  )

[hfmadopter]

True enough.  And the modern electronic instruments are pretty darn good.  Gets around the practice in public problem!  (On the other hand, even so... or perhaps especially! -- the first time you really open up a big organ -- literally pulling out all the stops! -- can be quite a shock...  )

I bet so ! I would love to play one some time, I've never played an organ and would like to try it some day. I've wanted to try playing an organ since a child.

My two instruments.
Accordian
Piano

[oxy60]

While you're sitting at the console even with bulk of the instrument some distance away it seems you're making a pretty big sound. It fills the hall and supports a large congregation singing. When walking up to listen to an outside organ I'm always amazed that I can see it but not really hear it until I'm less than 200 feet from it. Yes, back there I hear the 5 rank mixture tooting away but the 32' rank is lost.

Of course the best sound is sitting at the console with the steel curtain closed...

[jcabraham]

I myself have a Hauptwerk setup. It's two midi keyboards (Classic Midi Works, tracker action), an AGO midi pedalboard (Classic Midi Works), and a Mac laptop with Hauptwerk software. I have sample sets of various baroque organs which are available for purchase on the internet. It's an extraordinarily lifelike system. Many churches (Trinity on Wall Street for example) have enormous Hauptwerk setups nowadays, and experts are very hard put to tell the difference. Certainly it's incomparably better than an Allen or Rodgers electronic organ. My setup cost about $6k, with laptop and samples, and, over headphones, is indistinguishable from the original instruments. Highly recommended.

As I read your post I realized that today one could get an electric with AGO specs and use earphones. Granted it won't sound the same but any port in a storm, right?

[quantum]

Trinity Wall Street is a Marshall & Ogletree organ. 

Nonetheless, there is a lot of interesting advancements happening in the digital organ world.  Hauptwerk is probably the most visible, but certainly not the only option when it comes to sampled / virtual organ software. 

[iansinclair]

Trinity Wall Street is a Marshall & Ogletree organ. 

Nonetheless, there is a lot of interesting advancements happening in the digital organ world.  Hauptwerk is probably the most visible, but certainly not the only option when it comes to sampled / virtual organ software. 

Interesting... perhaps I should look into the setups mentioned here!  But I wonder... I really do wonder... there is a literally visceral quality to the real thing (I suspect I am badly spoiled by the way -- the instrument I often played was a mix of various makers, but basically a four manual Skinner brilliantly re-voiced, with many additions from Casavant Freres, and the pedal organ had true 64 foot diapasons and flutes (lowest frequency about 8 hertz) available as well as 32 foot solo reeds).  Thing is, with such an instrument the building itself is part of the instrument, and it is not just your ears (i.e. headphones) which are experiencing the sound and the music, but your whole body.  I am probably a hopeless old fuddy-duddy, but I'm having trouble envisioning an electronic setup which will capture that...

That said, an insturment like that isn't going to happen in a house, and perhaps anything is better than nothing!  I'll look into it...

[oxy60]

Interesting... perhaps I should look into the setups mentioned here!  But I wonder... I really do wonder... there is a literally visceral quality to the real thing (I suspect I am badly spoiled by the way -- the instrument I often played was a mix of various makers, but basically a four manual Skinner brilliantly re-voiced, with many additions from Casavant Freres, and the pedal organ had true 64 foot diapasons and flutes (lowest frequency about 8 hertz) available as well as 32 foot solo reeds).  Thing is, with such an instrument the building itself is part of the instrument, and it is not just your ears (i.e. headphones) which are experiencing the sound and the music, but your whole body.  I am probably a hopeless old fuddy-duddy, but I'm having trouble envisioning an electronic setup which will capture that...

That said, an insturment like that isn't going to happen in a house, and perhaps anything is better than nothing!  I'll look into it...

The console I mentioned belonged to the late father of a friend. I would have taken it but I have no space. It has been offered to some local churches but they are also set up.

I have played on two home pipe organs. One was in Scotty's "Castle" in Death Valley and the other on the shore of Puget Sound in WA. Neither was a huge installation. Both played well and each had a 16' rank using a stopped 8' flute.

The midi (home organ) setup mentioned above sounds very interesting. I guess one could fool the discerning ear with the right amps and speakers. Now what about the neighbors?

[quantum]

Interesting... perhaps I should look into the setups mentioned here!  But I wonder... I really do wonder... there is a literally visceral quality to the real thing (I suspect I am badly spoiled by the way -- the instrument I often played was a mix of various makers, but basically a four manual Skinner brilliantly re-voiced, with many additions from Casavant Freres, and the pedal organ had true 64 foot diapasons and flutes (lowest frequency about 8 hertz) available as well as 32 foot solo reeds).  Thing is, with such an instrument the building itself is part of the instrument, and it is not just your ears (i.e. headphones) which are experiencing the sound and the music, but your whole body.  I am probably a hopeless old fuddy-duddy, but I'm having trouble envisioning an electronic setup which will capture that...

That said, an insturment like that isn't going to happen in a house, and perhaps anything is better than nothing!  I'll look into it...

I've never experienced a digital instrument that comes anything close to the visceral experience of pipes.  Mind you I have yet to hear Marshall & Ogletree in person.  One phenomenon I have noticed is that digital organs do not reproduce well on recordings, unless you are doing a direct capture (no speakers to mics involved). 


I'm somewhat of the open source camp, so do prefer jOrgan over the major commercial competitor. 
https://jorgan.sourceforge.net

You could always turn your house into an organ
https://www.reuter822.com

[jcabraham]

While I suppose it's possible to "run" .wav samples from jorgan, I think it's generally setup to run with soundfonts via fluidsynth or other. I prefer the HW approach. The open source GrandOrgue will run HW1 samplesets.

https://www.sa-virtualorgans.co.za/GrandOrgueOverview.htm

I'm somewhat of the open source camp, so do prefer jOrgan over the major commercial competitor. 
https://jorgan.sourceforge.net

[quantum]

Since jOrgan is more of a MIDI data relay, as opposed to an all-in-one application, you do have choice in what sound sources you can run with it.  Default options with either Fluidsynth or using Creative cards are the easiest to setup.  However, those who are willing to tinker more have the potential for a much better sound.  There are some people running jOrgan as a frontend to commercial sampling software.  There are also some Hauptwerk users running jOrgan as a frontend, due to the ease at which one can customize according to one's hardware.  Customized skins, elaborate combination actions, theoretically unlimited memory levels, combinations stored in independent files that are easily swappable (good for multi-user scenarios), works with SysEx codes, works across a LAN... the list goes on.  You can even have a "live CD" style Linux based installation on a USB stick that you carry around and plug in anywhere. 

IMO, where jOrgan tends to lack is not the actual program itself, but a library of quality sampled pipe organs for the community.  There is a dedicated community of disposition builders that have made some wonderful instruments publicly available.  However, the number of instruments available for HW is undeniably much more. 

I haven't tried GrandOrgue yet, but there are some GO sets that have been ported to jOrgan.  More specifically, those by Lars Palo
https://familjenpalo.se/vpo/download

[wilsonl]

I also learned it both (and now I'm a organ teacher for my church, but still learning piano)

Well, the main difference of piano and organ is...
on piano, we playing with articulation and dynamics. But on organ, dynamics and articulation are 'OFF'. We just play it on same and stagnant dynamic, and dominated by continuous sound, like chord.

Of course, learning organ is easier than piano. But note if you're now on piano, very easy to learn organ, because we can bring our piano basic technique to play organ. I just need 4-5 years to learn all of organ technique, and now I'm a senior member of church organist)
But, of you learning organ first, it will be very difficult to learn piano, since 2 of my students on organ want to learn classical piano, EVEN their fingers can't make continuous appergio smoothly, like stacatto (I order a simple test, to play key C-D-E-F-G, but they hit those keys one by one!). Seemed that they lack on basic technique.

[jeanrhall]

According to me, the main differnce of organ vs piano is that Organ and piano both instruments using keyboards to play but the keys of keyboards are different.
Organ keyboard you can perform either by hand or feet. During the release of the notes, you have to pay more attention. It creates sound electronically when the key depressed. Piano tuned, it produces the different strings, , and sounds characterized by dissonance.

According to me organ more complex than piano.

[keypeg]

According to me organ more complex than piano.

How does that jive with what others have written about this before in earlier posts?  Do you disagree with any of it?

[mike_lang]

I play both each weekend. I'd say there's a different type of planning involved with organ, particularly in solo music but also in hymn playing to a lesser degree . . . registration, which manuals to play, when (exactly!) to hit pistons - and whether it will be a manual piston or a toe stud, and which foot, hand, or finger will be doing it, how dynamics will be enacted . . . and then of course the obvious: pedaling, distribution of notes between hands and feet, and coordination thereof.

In terms of the way the instrument works and what it is . . . it's completely different.

[visitor]

I minored in organ , tough as heck , was harder for me to get the knack of it

[pianoplunker]

What is the difference between playing organ and piano?

Organ blows air, Piano hammers a string.

[keypeg]

Of course after HenrikHan asked that question six years ago, he has not responded once - not even to say thank you.

I will never understand why people ask for help and advice in one-liners, and then disappear.

[outin]

Of course after HenrikHan asked that question six years ago, he has not responded once - not even to say thank you.

I will never understand why people ask for help and advice in one-liners, and then disappear.

And I will never understand why some people constantly complain about other people's way to use social media... as long as it's not aggressive, who cares?

[keypeg]

And I will never understand why some people constantly complain about other people's way to use social media... as long as it's not aggressive, who cares?

I can't for the moment think of anyone off hand who constantly complains.  But if someone does so, it's no concern of mine.

[indianajo]

Since this thread is revived:
Organ allows tonal texture to be part of the arrangement, in a similar way to orchestra and symphonic band (which I did 8 years in school).  
Organ with electric action also allows me to practice when my aging hands are acting up.  Lots of joint & tendon inflammation occurs these days, and my Hammond organ is a lot easier on the hands.  
I'm getting into arranging favorite symphonic/band/pop literature for the organ.  Dance of Sugar Plum Fairies turned out nicely with the glock standing in for the cheleste.  
 My Hammond H110 is not as commanding as the pneumatic organ played by Ian above, but with 999999 tonal combinations and 35 watts on 15" woofer and stereo vibrato on 8",  it can be quite exciting in my living room. And, now there is varied attack!
There are plenty of effects you can get with touch and volume on a piano, but the best literature is for that instrument. I'm not giving that up.   Covers can be better arranged on organ.  Nobody plays Beethoven Symphonies on piano anymore, even though the Liszt arrangements are freely available for download.  
Another difference, organ except for Hammond & Allen electronics, requires a lot more expensive maintenance than piano.  Ask the maintenance committee of any venue that owns a pneumatic organ, what their budget is. Anybody with decent pitch can tune a piano, with a little boldness and $50 in tools. 

[timothy42b]

Another difference, organ except for Hammond & Allen electronics, requires a lot more expensive maintenance than piano.  Ask the maintenance committee of any venue that owns a pneumatic organ, what their budget is. Anybody with decent pitch can tune a piano, with a little boldness and $50 in tools. 

Tuning a piano well takes a little more skill than that!  Nor can you get a decent tuning hammer for $50. 

But the cost differential is real.  Our church organ costs about $600 for the regular tunings, and the piano about $110.  We do three times a year for each. 

Here's another philosophical difference, depending on the setting of course.  A pipe organ in church is normally played for the purpose of enhancing congregational singing.  It's part of a group effort to worship together.  It's not for the artist to bestow a concert upon the audience (though of course there are times when that happens.  Piano on the other hand doesn't necessarily demand the audience engagement, and can be purely for the soloist's creation of art.